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Pakistani sisters shot dead for dishonour...


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#31    Arbenol

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 06:56 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 06 July 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

The definition is wrong. Female family members also contribute to this. Read e.g. the story of the Shafia sisters in Canada.

So, provide an alternative. It's important that when we use the term, it's means the same thing to each person.

View PostZaphod222, on 06 July 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

In Europe, it is exclusively a muslim issue. As I said, we did not have the concept and a specific term for it, before muslim immigrants began murdering their daughters for crime of becoming westernized.

Muslims are massively overrepresented in the stats (something like 95% in Europe) - which I acknowledged as true. The term may not have been there, but the concept was. It's only in the last 30 years that such killings have been illegal in Italy. "Honour" was accepted as extenuating circumstances in Italy until 1981:
http://www.thenation...e#axzz2YFGVTfUT


View PostZaphod222, on 06 July 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

You did claim it. You called yourself an equal-opportunity bigot because you hate all religions. Well, to generalize about "all religions" is the epitome of laziness. You simply lump them all together and judge about all -- that is totally absurd.

No I didn't. Read it again. I generalised my own attitudes towards religion (not completely seriously either) - not the religion themselves. You should really have read through the other posts in this thread. My attitude towards Islam is pretty clear. But if you think only Muslims have a problem with honour crimes, then you've been blinkered by your Islamophobia. Catholicism has quite the history if you bother to look.

Have a read (sorry, it's Wiki)
http://en.wikipedia....i/Honor_killing

Why do you keep bringing up Jainism? What's that got to do with anything.


#32    Zaphod222

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 07:08 AM

View PostArbenol68, on 06 July 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

Muslims are massively overrepresented in the stats (something like 95% in Europe) - which I acknowledged as true. The term may not have been there, but the concept was. It's only in the last 30 years that such killings have been illegal in Italy.

You can cherry-pick all you want, but the fact is that trying to relativize the concept of honor-killing which is firmly embedded in islam with some isolated examples from somewhere else remains dishonest. It is like the attempt to relativize islamic terrorism with some abortion clinic bombings committed by Rudolph 20 years ago and claim it is all the same. I don´t suppose you are trying that too?

View PostArbenol68, on 06 July 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:

Why do you keep bringing up Jainism? What's that got to do with anything.

I keep bringing up Jainism, because it is the most fanatically pacifist religion there is. Thus, it is the polar opposite of islam. So all these people who keep insisting that "all religions are the same" are trying tell us that Jainism and Islam are the same.

Of course, I am using the extreme ends of the religious spectrum to make the point. I thought that was obvious?

Now, you are the one who was talking about "all religions". So do tell us if you can find a Jain honor killing.

Edited by Zaphod222, 06 July 2013 - 07:09 AM.

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#33    Arbenol

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 07:26 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 06 July 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

You can cherry-pick all you want, but the fact is that trying to relativize the concept of honor-killing which is firmly embedded in islam with some isolated examples from somewhere else remains dishonest. It is like the attempt to relativize islamic terrorism with some abortion clinic bombings committed by Rudolph 20 years ago and claim it is all the same. I don´t suppose you are trying that too?

It certainly is not cherry-picking. They're not isolated examples which, if you read the links (and I know you didn't) you'd see.
The problem we have here is that we're using different definitions of the term. You seem to have your own and have the word "Islam" in there.


#34    Zaphod222

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 07:36 AM

View PostArbenol68, on 06 July 2013 - 07:26 AM, said:

It certainly is not cherry-picking. They're not isolated examples which, if you read the links (and I know you didn't) you'd see.
The problem we have here is that we're using different definitions of the term. You seem to have your own and have the word "Islam" in there.

You are cherry-picking, and I am still waiting for your list of honor killings committed by Jains, Buddhists, and Bahai.
(Not holding my breath, though.)

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)

#35    Yamato

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 08:01 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 06 July 2013 - 07:36 AM, said:

You are cherry-picking, and I am still waiting for your list of honor killings committed by Jains, Buddhists, and Bahai.
(Not holding my breath, though.)
Fanatically pacifist is the polar opposite of Islam?  Where do you get your information at?   You're cherry picking examples that you're trying to tie to an entire religion.  The Qu'ran doesn't tell you to go honor kill anyone.  

If I go and kill someone in the name of Jesus, is that Christianity's fault?  According to you, it would be.

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#36    Arbenol

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 08:09 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 06 July 2013 - 07:36 AM, said:

You are cherry-picking, and I am still waiting for your list of honor killings committed by Jains, Buddhists, and Bahai.
(Not holding my breath, though.)

Ok. You got me. Those are wonderful religions and in future I'll reserve my ire exclusively for the Abrahamic faiths. How's that?

Now about arguing your point from facts not opinions.
I've got some facts for you. 90% of honour killings worldwide are Islamic. That leaves 10% that are not. Predominantly, but not exclusively, a Muslim issue. I've provided several lines of evidence to support this - you've provided none.

Stick to your home-made definitions and wilfull ignorance if you wish and if that makes you feel more comfortable.


#37    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 03:49 PM

Chalk up another atrocity done in the madness that is religion.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious
conviction." - Blaise Pascal


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#38    Knight Of Shadows

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 07:08 PM

on side note if islamic rules are applied the people who shot them will be put to death for killing the sisters

Edited by Knight Of Shadows, 08 July 2013 - 07:12 PM.

by the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
Say, "I seek refuge in the Lord of daybreak From the evil of that which He created
And from the evil of darkness when it settles And from the evil of the blowers in knots
And from the evil of an envier when he envies"
truthful was Allah The Most High And Great


#39    keithisco

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 06:57 PM

View PostYamato, on 06 July 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

Fanatically pacifist is the polar opposite of Islam?  Where do you get your information at?   You're cherry picking examples that you're trying to tie to an entire religion.  The Qu'ran doesn't tell you to go honor kill anyone.  

If I go and kill someone in the name of Jesus, is that Christianity's fault?  According to you, it would be.

Slightly idiotic  your post... Christians are not required to kill anyone (read the 10 Commandments).   Islam actually requires you to kill non - believers (the "Kiddy Fiddling" masters decree) and the such like. In fact today if you even try to draw a picture a Mohammed then you become a target for fundamantalists.

Of course, in the past there were many depictions of Mohammed, but apparently that is not allowed today...maybe it undermines their "Belief" system and might even have to recognise that women exist for more than procreation.

If anyone kills in the name of a specific cult or religion then they should br damned to hell (not that I believe it exists) because it is not a death expected to advance civilisation...

People are beginning to wake up to the fact that Religion is outdated, the real difficulty is trying to find something to replace it.

Edited by keithisco, 09 July 2013 - 07:07 PM.


#40    keithisco

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 07:12 PM

View PostKnight Of Shadows, on 08 July 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

on side note if islamic rules are applied the people who shot them will be put to death for killing the sisters
...and any women who dared to show their face? Maybe want to drive a car? Maybe want to go out to a Girly Night without chaperones

Oh Yes, the Qu'ran is very good at meeting out revenge. Men decide everything for the women and children, but most cannot even read or write....


#41    Knight Of Shadows

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 07:58 PM

View Postkeithisco, on 09 July 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

...and any women who dared to show their face? Maybe want to drive a car? Maybe want to go out to a Girly Night without chaperones

Oh Yes, the Qu'ran is very good at meeting out revenge. Men decide everything for the women and children, but most cannot even read or write....
jeez i didn't know there was verses in Quran that prevent women from driving !
please enlighten me .. direct me to those verses i beg you !

so far as you are supposedly " studied " the Quran ... pfft
i have yet to see you post lines from quran to prove your points . makes me wonder
keep in mind that i only take " Quran and Hadith " into account .. pure source of religion
not people's actions

Edited by Knight Of Shadows, 09 July 2013 - 07:59 PM.

by the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
Say, "I seek refuge in the Lord of daybreak From the evil of that which He created
And from the evil of darkness when it settles And from the evil of the blowers in knots
And from the evil of an envier when he envies"
truthful was Allah The Most High And Great


#42    Phaeton80

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 04:27 PM

View Postkeithisco, on 09 July 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

...and any women who dared to show their face? Maybe want to drive a car? Maybe want to go out to a Girly Night without chaperones

Oh Yes, the Qu'ran is very good at meeting out revenge. Men decide everything for the women and children, but most cannot even read or write....

Im sorry, but comments like this show how little you know about the Qur'an.

Have you read it? And I mean cover to cover, not like it was some encyclopedia, bigot style.

Please dont jump on the anti Islam bandwagon, it will get you nowhere very fast.


#43    Yes_Man

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 05:03 PM

View Postkeithisco, on 09 July 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

...and any women who dared to show their face? Maybe want to drive a car? Maybe want to go out to a Girly Night without chaperones

Oh Yes, the Qu'ran is very good at meeting out revenge. Men decide everything for the women and children, but most cannot even read or write....
Actually the Qu'ran does not mention that, its only leaders mention that


#44    and then

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 05:21 PM

View PostPhaeton80, on 10 July 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

Im sorry, but comments like this show how little you know about the Qur'an.

Have you read it? And I mean cover to cover, not like it was some encyclopedia, bigot style.

Please dont jump on the anti Islam bandwagon, it will get you nowhere very fast.
One need not be an expert in the Qur'an to make judgements of behaviors that are attributed to faith in Islam.  The behaviors speak for themselves.  If a nominal "Christian" gouges out the eye of someone and quotes the Bible as justifying it then you can be sure that people would be screaming against the evils of Christianity.  Many if not most of the attacks by Islamists are highlighted by the perpetrators statements of justification from the Qur'an.  It is what it is.

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#45    Knight Of Shadows

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 05:24 PM

View PostPhaeton80, on 10 July 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

Im sorry, but comments like this show how little you know about the Qur'an.

Have you read it? And I mean cover to cover, not like it was some encyclopedia, bigot style.

Please dont jump on the anti Islam bandwagon, it will get you nowhere very fast.
supposedly he claimed " he studied " the Quran . that means not only read it but actually study it
study it = knew each verse . the reason behind it , when it came down , explaination . whom it directed to .. etc etc
but appearently somehow arabs had cars on in time of mohammad and quran prevented women from driving
and yet we didn't know about it

by the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
Say, "I seek refuge in the Lord of daybreak From the evil of that which He created
And from the evil of darkness when it settles And from the evil of the blowers in knots
And from the evil of an envier when he envies"
truthful was Allah The Most High And Great





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