Is There Enough Readiness For Wormholes?

[mansouryar]

Hi everybody,

I request you to share me your comments for answering the below questions which are really important to me:

1) Do you think the world, is ready enough to meet the consequences of building a wormhole, during the next few years?

2) What is your assessment of finding the proper planets for living and/or probable intelligent ETs, by this technology, for the current decade?

Thank you,

MM

P.S. 1: For more information, see this article and interview:

http://www.remoteviewer.nu/index.php?name=...amp;newlang=fra

P.S. 2: Please, please only speak about non-technical stuffs; I mean no physical questions at all. I assume the people who comment here, have already accepted the possibility of wormholes.

[Pax Unum]

I don't think humanity is mature enough (we can't even get along with other humans), besides, wormholes are hypothetical, and most known solutions of general relativity which allow for traversable wormholes require the existence of exotic matter, also hypothetical...

[mansouryar]

Thank you so much Pax Unum. The question is: Why we are not mature enough? Its reverse (why not ...) doesn't sound pleasant. I think this technology can be kind of solution to many critics of communists and socialists to the capitalism. For example by nearly making the natural sources and job opportunities, if we could colonize other proper spheres, infinite.

Also, consider the story of many professions along the history, carters after inventing the automobiles, some sort of workers after inventing some kind of industrial robots, many of woodcutters after discovering the petroleum and related applications, many people in petroleum industry working to produce electricity after inventing alternative & clean energies, ...

You see? The stream of civilization continues and we meet new inventions which people generally use them, if there would be enough logics behind them. If those could make the life easier, and lessen our pains.

How about this one? Should we stop it in the present point? Or if we must go on, what should be the cures? These are profound questions.

Mammad

P.S. 1: Come on guys! This website is crowded enough to have more comments! For example, sci-fi movies and novels could be good inspiring sources to tell your own comments here.

P.S. 2: There are satisfying physical arguments in favor of wormholes and exotic matter; please only discuss on social aspects ...

[badeskov]

I don't think humanity is mature enough (we can't even get along with other humans), besides, wormholes are hypothetical, and most known solutions of general relativity which allow for traversable wormholes require the existence of exotic matter, also hypothetical...

Pax, I would have to disagree with the former, but I certainly agree with you on the latter True, we can't even get along with other humans, so how would we react when encountering another species. I don't think one is ever ready until it actually happens and we have to deal with it. But I honestly think we would be able to deal with it if/when it happens. This is obviously under the assumption that the only contacts will really be diplomatic and maybe a of bit trading. It's a whole new ball game when we start looking into the sociology if they started moving here and we started moving there, i.e. an integration.

For wormholes I totally agree. They are hypothetical, and while they as such do not break the laws of physics, they are still on the edge. Among other things they require the exotic matter that have the "nice" property of having negative energy. Secondly, someone did the "power budget" and found that it requires the energy of a middle size star to open a worm hole big enough to go through and to keep it open for any reasonable amount of time.

Best,

Badeskov

[mansouryar]

Thanks a lot for your comment badeskov. I think new frontiers toward a better communicating between the humans surely is the best preliminary to get ready for an integration composed of other species.

BTW, let's keep this debate pure, i.e., please assume negative energy can be generated, a practical wormhole can be set up by feasible amounts of it, and altogether, we have a benign and convenient scenario in the physical part of this matter. OK?

[Cebrakon]

Thanks a lot for your comment badeskov. I think new frontiers toward a better communicating between the humans surely is the best preliminary to get ready for an integration composed of other species.

BTW, let's keep this debate pure, i.e., please assume negative energy can be generated, a practical wormhole can be set up by feasible amounts of it, and altogether, we have a benign and convenient scenario in the physical part of this matter. OK?

:angry2: No, I couldn't agree with any of that. Wormholes on a macroscopic scale require negative mass, which has the paradoxical characteristics of accelerating more, the less the force applies; and of course it will accelerate less, the more force is applied to it. While I suppose anything is possible, this is pure science fiction.

~~Cebrakon, master of the forbidden sciences

[badeskov]

:angry2: No, I couldn't agree with any of that. Wormholes on a macroscopic scale require negative mass, which has the paradoxical characteristics of accelerating more, the less the force applies; and of course it will accelerate less, the more force is applied to it. While I suppose anything is possible, this is pure science fiction.

~~Cebrakon, master of the forbidden sciences

No, I would have to disagree. Wormholes on a macroscopic level requires negative energy, not negative mass. And while not impossible from a the laws of physics perspective, it is still rather hard to get your hands on and has some annoying characteristics

Or, am I completely wrong?!

Best,

Badeskov

Edited November 25, 2006 by badeskov

[Leonardo]

Some info;

We found that it is possible to have models of wormholes of macroscopic size but only at the price of confining the negative energy to an extremely thin band around the throat. For example, in one model a throat radius of 1 meter requires the negative energy to be a band no thicker than 10-21 meter, a millionth the size of a proton. Visser has estimated that the negative energy required for this size of wormhole has a magnitude equivalent to the total energy generated by 10 billion stars in one year. The situation does not improve much for larger wormholes.

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.

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Warp drives are even more tightly constrained, as shown by Pfenning and Allen Everett of Tufts, working with us. In Alcubierre's model, a warp bubble traveling at 10 times lightspeed (warp factor 2, in the parlance of Star Trek: The Next Generation) must have a wall thickness of no more than 10-32 meter. A bubble large enough to enclose a starship 200 meters across would require a total amount of negative energy equal to 10 billion times the mass of the observable universe.

source

I think I have linked this before. It isn't the most recent study (circa 2000) but I don't believe theory has changed much since this was published.

[badeskov]

Some info;

source

I think I have linked this before. It isn't the most recent study (circa 2000) but I don't believe theory has changed much since this was published.

Ugh, I guess I was a little off in my energy estimation Thanks for the link.

Best,

Badeskov

[mansouryar]

Come on guys! Look at the title of this topic; it shows I’ve assumed wormholes are possible to be constructed. I ask everyone who thinks it’s not so, PLEASE start another topic and discuss on counter-arguments for wormholes. There are plenty of debates on this point, e.g., see:

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=53085

http://www.gaters.net/showthread.php?t=10065

[badeskov]

Come on guys! Look at the title of this topic; it shows I’ve assumed wormholes are possible to be constructed. I ask everyone who thinks it’s not so, PLEASE start another topic and discuss on counter-arguments for wormholes. There are plenty of debates on this point, e.g., see:

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=53085

http://www.gaters.net/showthread.php?t=10065

Sorry mansouryar, but it is so easy to get carried away. My opinion is still that we are not ready and we will never be, but that we will deal with the situation nonetheless when it arises. I guess it would be a little like having the first child, something one is never truly prepared for.

I presume that initial contact will be limited to diplomatic meetings and maybe some trading and/or technology exchange. But I seriously do not see closer cooperation happening before contact has been maintained for a long time. That a whole host of issues can arise here on Earth due to this contact is a completely different matter. I am sure initially the world will unite, but I could also envision that some governments could feel that they would have more rights than others to the information/technology obtained or maybe even be the main point of contact. That could indeed turn out nasty.

Best,

Badeskov

[Pax Unum]

Thank you so much Pax Unum. The question is: Why we are not mature enough? Its reverse (why not ...) doesn't sound pleasant. I think this technology can be kind of solution to many critics of communists and socialists to the capitalism. For example by nearly making the natural sources and job opportunities, if we could colonize other proper spheres, infinite.

Also, consider the story of many professions along the history, carters after inventing the automobiles, some sort of workers after inventing some kind of industrial robots, many of woodcutters after discovering the petroleum and related applications, many people in petroleum industry working to produce electricity after inventing alternative & clean energies, ...

You see? The stream of civilization continues and we meet new inventions which people generally use them, if there would be enough logics behind them. If those could make the life easier, and lessen our pains.

How about this one? Should we stop it in the present point? Or if we must go on, what should be the cures? These are profound questions.

Mammad

what do do think would happen if we discovered a Earth like planet, and the natives were only a little more advanced than Gorilla's? if we meet ET's on the other side of these wormholes, they better have bigger guns than we have... that's what I mean by not mature enough yet.

if the United States developed these wormholes, would they let the rest of the worlds governments use them? what about if China or Iran developed them? what would the U.S. do if China or Iran was exploring the cosmos through wormholes and wouldn't share?

and it would be maybe century's before private citizen's got to use these wormholes independently of 'Starfleet', a Gov. sanctioned commercial enterprise or a Gov. sanctioned cruise service... IMO

[Atheist God]

1) Do you think the world, is ready enough to meet the consequences of building a wormhole, during the next few years?

Chances that we are not going to be able to generate a stable wormhole for a long, long time. We have barely begun to understand such things and the science of wormholes is relativly new.

2) What is your assessment of finding the proper planets for living and/or probable intelligent ETs, by this technology, for the current decade?

Finding Intellegent species unlike our own would change humanity in ways we can only imagine. It is not likely we will find such beings in the near future however finding signs of any extrasolar life would likely have the same effects and we would know that we aren't alone in the universe.

[mansouryar]

My opinion is still that we are not ready and we will never be, but that we will deal with the situation nonetheless when it arises. I guess it would be a little like having the first child, something one is never truly prepared for.

It is an interesting opinion. Thanks for saying it.

I presume that initial contact will be limited to diplomatic meetings and maybe some trading and/or technology exchange.

It’s logical, but one should consider the possibility whether they might have an unknown ethical system.

That a whole host of issues can arise here on Earth due to this contact is a completely different matter.

Discussion on this matter could represent vital codes to us, couldn’t it?

I could also envision that some governments could feel that they would have more rights than others to the information/technology obtained or maybe even be the main point of contact. That could indeed turn out nasty.

Sadly, this is a main reason of current global problems. We should think to cures for that, before coming a much more sensitive future. What do you propose?

what do do think would happen if we discovered a Earth like planet, and the natives were only a little more advanced than Gorilla's?

Seemingly we’d treat them like slaves, or experimental samples. Hard part of the deal is meeting the beings, (much) more intelligent than us.

if we meet ET's on the other side of these wormholes, they better have bigger guns than we have... that's what I mean by not mature enough yet.

Why do you think we/they should welcome them/us by guns? Why should we/they be counted as threat or danger for the other side? Do you think future space explorations should be dependent upon inventing more deathful weapons?

if the United States developed these wormholes, would they let the rest of the worlds governments use them?

I don’t guess so, but it depends on many factors.

what about if China or Iran developed them?

One can understand China to do any peaceful thing to manage its huge population. Iran’s economy sounds low for this technology, unless it’d become too strategic within a military project.

what would the U.S. do if China or Iran was exploring the cosmos through wormholes and wouldn't share?

It should give an extreme shake to its ass, and so much seriously start the needed researches. BTW, it seems the world would get less militarized, not visa versa.

and it would be maybe century's before private citizen's got to use these wormholes independently of 'Starfleet', a Gov. sanctioned commercial enterprise or a Gov. sanctioned cruise service... IMO

Do you talk about only the US? Or all the West? Or all of the world? What would happen if the political regimes come to the conclusion that governmental entities (e.g., NASA, etc) are not rapid and effective enough to that end? Would they make agreements with the private contractors? Do you think it’s a good cure?

GanjaGuru,

Thanks a lot for your comments. However, the grow rate of some sciences is too high.

Finding Intellegent species unlike our own would change humanity in ways we can only imagine.

How changing? Worse or better?

[Pax Unum]

Seemingly we’d treat them like slaves, or experimental samples.

you forgot that we'd take over the planet... what would be the rules for colonization? and what if we unknowingly colonize some world claimed by another ET race, and they show up one day and say we have to leave?

Why do you think we/they should welcome them/us by guns? Why should we/they be counted as threat or danger for the other side? Do you think future space explorations should be dependent upon inventing more deathful weapons?

I think humans are dangerous, and theres no reason to believe some ET's might not be dangerous as well... only a fool would go exploring into the unknown without some way of protecting themselves

BTW, it seems the world would get less militarized, not visa versa.

maybe, but I wouldn't hold my breath... Earth would build fleets of military ships to protect it's self from a 'possible' ET threat, and to protect it's colonies and off world resources

What would happen if the political regimes come to the conclusion that governmental entities (e.g., NASA, etc) are not rapid and effective enough to that end? Would they make agreements with the private contractors? Do you think it’s a good cure?

corporate greed is even worse than the military mindset... how would ET's deal with spy's? and don't kid yourself, there would be spies (both corporate and military) trying to get ET technology

before any exploration was done, some rules and a way to enforce them would have to be in place... and if someone say's leave it to the United Nations, I'll bust a gut laughing...

[jay322]

im sorry but theres no such thing as worm holes. what exactly is your definition of a "wormhole"?

[shun]

If you had a device, and you could aim it in any direction, and it would foreshorten a given, adjustable distance, it would obviously solve many problems currently facing the astronomical community. The issue of resolving the surface of another star was barely

accomplished using Hubble telescope (the red giant, Betelgeuse). Any speck of a planet orbiting such a body will require interferometric means, meaning a large imaging array operated in outer space.

These mega-telescoping devices would point the way. Getting to those other worlds is another matter.

We are consuming our mineral reserves in such a way that to reach an interstellar tehnological level, with a sound economic backing, is something I do not see Earth at large participating in. Because, I do not anticipate any advances toward the interstellar horizon by mankind, within the next hundred years. It is just a matter of making an economic projection, out one hundred years. Going to a coal-to-liquids or coal-to-gas economy will only impede further progress, IMO.

The history of theoretical breakthroughs was not dependent on any certain economic or technological conditions, but the ability to explore beyond Earth is.

My opinions, of course, regarding "the next few years".

However, if our giant particle accelerators lead to an astounding discovery, or if someone builds a portable device that can change locations in the blink of an eye, maybe we will be on the fast track to an evolutionary breakthrough. That is perhaps a stretch, but even so, what are the social implications?

We could imagine an advancing human race, in all regards. Except, for perhaps one thing.

The brain. The brain that we have, that we know, operates converting atmospheric pressures and optical energies into useful stimuli. For the rest, we supplement. What we do not know, is if there is a possibility of some living entity in your "single universe", that has access to yet another means of gathering information. Specifically, telepathy.

If that is an enabling factor, one way or another, in the reputed interstellar travel abilities

of living intelligent creatures, things get more complicated for us, in terms of what such factors might present, either in terms of scientific abilities, or social or ethical sensibilities.

What do you think of what JS has to say, in terms of your possible connections to any group that is part of an intelligence community?

Edited November 27, 2006 by shun

[Jesus_is_King]

Hi everybody,

I request you to share me your comments for answering the below questions which are really important to me:

1) Do you think the world, is ready enough to meet the consequences of building a wormhole, during the next few years?

2) What is your assessment of finding the proper planets for living and/or probable intelligent ETs, by this technology, for the current decade?

Thank you,

MM

P.S. 1: For more information, see this article and interview:

http://www.remoteviewer.nu/index.php?name=...amp;newlang=fra

P.S. 2: Please, please only speak about non-technical stuffs; I mean no physical questions at all. I assume the people who comment here, have already accepted the possibility of wormholes.

Hmmm....build wormholes? I think wormholes already exist. I might be a bit confused on what you reall meant(I didn't read the article).

But no, no way is humanity ready for that. Is it going to happen? I don't think it's really too important of an issue for me but yeah, I have not doubt that it can but I think it's more likely that it won't.

I don't think we are going to exist much longer anyway. (I know that's the point). I believe in the rapture and tribulation. So you can see finding other possible habitats is not an issue to me.

Ephesians 6

12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,[c] against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

[mansouryar]

jay322,

A special kind of spacetime metric to cause distance reduction. For more info see this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole

And then please tell what’s your imagination of a world having this technology?

[crystal sage]

EXOPOLITICS

http://www.exopolitics.org/index.html

This site is dedicated to producing high quality research papers that focus on the political implications of what an overwhelming amount of evidence conclusively points to as an extraterrestrial presence on Earth that is known by clandestine government organizations who keep official knowledge of this presence secret from the general public and elected political officials. The evidence suggests that decision making is restricted to a small group of officials drawn primarily from the military and intelligence branches of various national governments who operate on a 'need to know' basis, and whose appointments are made in a way that 'stretches' or breaks accepted constitutional guidelines and processes.

If one accepts the available evidence and concludes that the above is indeed occurring, then it is up to each individual to familiarize herself or himself with the issues and take whatever action is appropriate. The place to begin your journey through this site and discover Exopolitics is through the Research Study papers and the articles that are periodically published on this site. A book containing revised and expanded versions of the first six study papers and a new chapter on preparing for extraterrestrial contact is now available.

[crystal sage]

...I think we are ready for it....

The popularity of the 'Star Gat'e series...Star Wars... Star Trek...etc... have laid the "groundwork for the acceptability of it..

http://openseti.org/Physics.html

"But in new theories gaining support today, the extra dimensions are wrapped into circles as large as a millimeter in radius. That seems small but it is actually large enough to come within range of, for example, the Large Hadron Collider that will become operational around 2005. Tabletop gravity experiments are now underway.

The small size of the extra dimensions in no way limits the extent of the spacetimes that would connect to any of them. At any given coordinate along one of the dimensions, an entire 4-dimensional spacetime could exist, as well as parallel universes with dimensional systems utterly unlike our own. In one scenario, they would have properties identical to those of our own world. Or they could even BE our own world, folded back at some point practically unreachable from here, yet only a millimeter away in higher-dimensional space.

The implications for SETI of these intriguing new geometries are obvious. SETI scientists ought to watch these developments closely, because they suggest new possibilities for travel and communications.22"

[shun]

You did not answer my question. No matter. Let me ask another. WTH don't you do like so many others, and simply emmigrate, and hook up with someone in the country of your choice?

Everyone else seems to.

[mansouryar]

what would be the rules for colonization?

The rules logically should be defined by a group of experts, truly represented by all the population of the earth. I mean the same “global republic”. The old orders of the UNO shaped after the WWII wouldn’t work. Wow! Think about it man! Star Wars-like movies are somehow really coming true ...

what if we unknowingly colonize some world claimed by another ET race, and they show up one day and say we have to leave?

Having the wormhole technology, we (or they) would have least problems to leave or enter wherever we like! BTW, we could solve such problems by civil methods, i.e., based on tight evidences in a fair court composed of both sides, etc. Also, due to our current knowledge of Mars, no ET would have any claim about it, because it’s been empty of any kind of organic being or other sign for many years, but to colonize suspicious planets to having the live beings, we’d have to take care much more, naturally to prevent probable conflicts with them in a foreseeable future of living there.

I think humans are dangerous, and theres no reason to believe some ET's might not be dangerous as well

I wish the word “realistically” was kinder. Such a viewpoint never believes in a long peaceful period. Laugh at me, but I wish all would understand the violence is not a good thing, and children have a better world than the adults. It’s a pity...

only a fool would go exploring into the unknown without some way of protecting themselves

Sure. I meant only an extreme attention to unconventional weapons; and that is still an open question...

Earth would build fleets of military ships to protect it's self from a 'possible' ET threat, and to protect it's colonies and off world resources

I was talking on current relations between us not ETs. Between America & Iran, Israel & Arabs, etc and related consequences. Your above comment is quite true.

corporate greed is even worse than the military mindset

Not sure on it. The military deals with the life & death of the nations. Also, there are a few companies to dare to work in novel areas, as wild as this technology. How many of them are ready to seriously invest on it?

how would ET's deal with spy's? and don't kid yourself, there would be spies (both corporate and military) trying to get ET technology

An effective counter-approach to spies is doing the things very fast. No more suggestion?

and if someone say's leave it to the United Nations, I'll bust a gut laughing

It seems that’s the most satisfying entity, however it should be much more powerful than now. Better suggestion?

Now I’m preparing some replies to other members

[mansouryar]

Thanks you so much shun for the reply.

Because, I do not anticipate any advances toward the interstellar horizon by mankind, within the next hundred years. It is just a matter of making an economic projection, out one hundred years.

My hope is military considerations and environmental threats could cause nice results about this technology. The economy is absolutely not everything. Besides, many streams in the modern ear can grow so faster in respect to the previous ones, like the nanotechnology or IT.

things get more complicated for us, in terms of what such factors might present, either in terms of scientific abilities, or social or ethical sensibilities

and I ask you to explain your thoughts about these “complicated factors” in details please.

What do you think of what JS has to say, in terms of your possible connections to any group that is part of an intelligence community?

My reply to this Jack’s remark is a NO with smile.

You did not answer my question.

Mostly because there are internet services in Iran with ridiculously low speed and full of disconnection.

WTH don't you do like so many others, and simply emmigrate, and hook up with someone in the country of your choice?

You mean I should immigrate?! Can you explain more? What would you do if you were in my shoes?

[mansouryar]

Thanks a lot, Jesus is King.

Do you think the quest I’m looking for it, reducing the distances, could improve anything, regarding the hopeless interpretation you presented? Can it do anything “against the rulers of the darkness of this age”?

From your ID, it seems you must have a high Christian faith. Which one shall absorb more essence and respect from your faith: death, or life?

crystal sage,

Thank you so much for the replies and the links. Now I’m typing for you ...