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Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]


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#3031    Abramelin

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 07:04 PM

View PostKnul, on 22 March 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

The river Amer is regarded as the Eem river.


Ammers, Ammer of Amer betekende vroeger: waterloop.
Ammers Ammer or Amer used to mean: watercourse.

http://nl.wikipedia....ki/Groot-Ammers

So Amer doesn't necessarily have to point at the Eem river in Utrecht. It could just as well be an area with many 'watercourses', like the area of Waal, Rhine and Maas, or the area you see in that yellow map I posted (horizontal ellipse).

.

Edited by Abramelin, 22 March 2013 - 07:05 PM.


#3032    Knul

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:08 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 22 March 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

As you can read in my quote, it's only Luit van der Tuuk who uses Dorestad as an argument for his location of the border between Amorland and Frisia.

Did you read all of the site, btw?
Yes I did. Apparently you did not read my website on Dorestad.


#3033    Abramelin

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 03:36 AM

View PostKnul, on 22 March 2013 - 10:08 PM, said:

Yes I did. Apparently you did not read my website on Dorestad.

I did, but not all, I admit. I have to scroll from left to right for a mile to  read it.

And did you read this? It's from the site you are registered on:

http://www.semafoor....oorDORESTAD.pdf


,

Edited by Abramelin, 23 March 2013 - 03:38 AM.


#3034    Apol

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 04:38 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 22 March 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

Here it is (assuming you mean the 6-spoked wheel, not the 6-spoked priest, lol):

http://www.unexplain...65#entry3752000

Posted Image
Thank you, 'Abramelin'. It is an interesting find. It is surely related to other sun disks found - like the one from Moordorf in Germany and the harnessed one from Trundholm in Denmark - though they don't display any six-spoked wheels.

Edited by Apol, 23 March 2013 - 04:39 AM.


#3035    Abramelin

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 09:37 AM

Because more than half of this thread (including part -1- ) is about language, linguistics and etymology , plus the suggestion that the OLB Fryan language may have stood at the base of many diverse languages, I think the next is rather appropriate for this thread:



the Skeptic
Vol 20, No 2
ISSN 0726-9897


http://www.skeptics....ptic/2000/2.pdf

From chapter
42 - Linguistic reconstruction and revisionist accounts of Ancient History  - Mark Newbrook


6) Hallet on pygmies
One of the theories of Hallet, the maverick Belgian explorer
of Africa, was that the Ituri pygmies of the Congo
region, notably the speakers of Efe, represent the original
human population. This is reflected in their lore,
which includes all the basic motifs of myth and religion,
and in the Efe language, from which large
elements of Egyptian, Hebrew and many
Indo-European languages can be derived. The methodology
is again the same: comparison of isolated forms
which are superficially similar. (Others, such as King,
have made other wild claims about the pygmies.)

7) Reinterpretations of the Bible
Like Salibi, Wilkens etc more recently, Daunt, writing
in the 1920s, claimed that the scene of key events in
ancient history (in this case the central narratives
of the Old Testament) was not in fact the
obvious location as normally interpreted (in
this case Palestine) but some other quite distant
location. Daunt placed the Biblical events
further east, especially in India, equating Biblical
characters with figures from the history
and myth of that region. He supported these
claims with linguistic equations of the usual
kind, involving superficial similarities between
isolated words. Another non-standard
approach to Biblical languages is that of the
British Israelites, who implausibly proclaim
linguistic connections between Hebrew, on the
one hand, and both English and Welsh, on the
other.

8) Basque and Etruscan
Alonso and others have claimed that the contemporary
isolated language Basque is related to an ancient, poorly
understood isolated language, Etruscan. This is in no
way impossible, but the evidence offered here is at the
usual inadequate level. (Compare earlier C20 attempts
to relate Basque to the Cretan Linear scripts; see my
paper on the Phaistos Disk for details.) Associated with
these ideas are attempts by Khvevelidze and others to
link Basque with Caucasian, a language group which
shares some general typological features with Basque
but is not otherwise similar to it.

9) Hungarian as the ancestor language
Simon, a Hungarian author, argues for a wide-reaching
version of the Atlantis story (see 5) above) incorporating
Noah’s Ark and tracing as much as possible back to
a Hungarian-using civilisation in the remote past which
was linked culturally and linguistically with Sumer and
other civilisations in both the Old World and the New.
The linguistics does not loom so large here, but where
it does appear it is on much the same level as that of
Temple, although Simon also works on his own computerised
lexically-based dialect atlas of Hungary and
does seem to know something of the more traditional
branches of the subject. Simon’s work also links in with
that of the American epigraphists; along with some
other Hungarian enthusiasts, he accepts a Hungarian
version of the Norse ‘Vinland Map’. Most scholars consider
that the Hungarian map is probably a recently
forged special version (of a map which itself may very
well be a forgery).

10) Hungarian as close to the ancestor language
Vomos-Toth, a second Hungarian writer, has developed
a rival view of Hungarian as close to the ultimate ancestor
language. Drawing off Lahovary and others, as
well as his own investigations, he believes that Hungarian
retains many features of a language called
Tamana used universally before a catastrophe several
thousand years ago (compare 3), 5) above); cognates
also appear in Dravidian, Sumerian and African languages.
The methodology for reconstruction is again
on the same level.

11) Latvian as the ancestor language
Kaulins, a Latvian author, has been claiming since 1977
that Latvian is the oldest known language
(and has therefore been remarkably static over
a long period). He supports his claims with
analyses of cultural manifestations and of
blood-group distribution (there is actually a
serious tradition of work in this latter area,
which has produced some very
thought-provoking results). However,
Kaulins’ main evidence is, naturally, linguistic.
Unlike most writers discussed here, he
knows enough linguistics to recognise his situation
with respect to the mainstream, and he
thus explicitly rejects rather than ignores contemporary
ideas on the adequacy of evidence
(compare Ruhlen). On this basis, Kaulins
identifies many words in Ancient Egyptian, Greek,
Sumerian etc as corruptions or (later) cognates of
Latvian words. Naturally, he also rejects the mainstream
view that Latvian has a mixed structure because of influential
contact with Finno-Ugric and is the least
conservative of Baltic languages.

12) Turkish as the ancestor language
In the 1920s, the new republican regime in Turkey tried
to persuade Turks that their language was the ancestor
of all human languages. This was partly a political
move, made with a view to persuading conservative
Turks to accept borrowed words for innovations (if all
words were originally Turkish, it was surely legitimate
for Turkish to ‘reclaim’ them); but nationalistic ideas
were again a factor here. The linguistic evidence is of
the same kind.

13) Nicolas Marr
Marr was a Soviet-era linguist whose Marxist-based
ideas about language change became more and more
‘fringe’ in nature but were endorsed by Stalin, which
protected him from criticism (a linguistic Lysenko).
Eventually he came to hold (on less than persuasive
grounds of the usual kind) that all words in all languages
derived ultimately from the four syllables sal,
ber, yon and rosh in combination. After his death his
ideas continued in favour in the USSR for 16 years until
Stalin himself finally pointed out some unrelated
inconsistencies in his theories.

14) Ior Bock, ‘onomatology’, etc
A more down-to-earth version of Marr is Ior Bock the
Finnish sperm-drinker, who manages the
‘Lemminkainen Temple’ near Helsinki and claims that
his family possesses a tradition of ‘the oldest language
in the world’, known as Rot (pronounced like English
root); this unwritten and allegedly unwritable language
(naturally spoken in Finland!) is based on a ‘ring’ of 23
‘sounds’ (mainly syllables), each with a specific meaning,
which combined in many different ways in the
remote past to form all human languages. The resemblances
are often very approximate indeed, and the
derivations are typically far-fetched and naturally in
conflict with those generally accepted.

A roughly similar claim, promoted by Alferink, involves
new etymologies for modern words such as
Australia, which are held to be constructed out of basic,
allegedly ancient syllables or other short sequences;
these have somehow retained fixed meanings (obscure
to modern scholars and the general public) over long
periods. Yet another, somewhat ludicrous proposal is
that of Hietbrink, who believes that many words and
phrases in a variety of languages are corruptions of expressions
in (Modern) Dutch! Shaver’s ‘Mantong’,
published by Palmer in Amazing Stories as part of the
1940s ‘dero’ cycle, was again rather similar, although
here the original language, like that of Ior Bock, was
mysterious.

The advocates of such ideas often use the term onomatology
to refer to their methods and results. I recently
saw a large display in a central Melbourne street, attacking
Freemasonry and featuring some very
far-fetched ‘onomastic’ equations of
haphazardly-selected parts of names etc with other very
loosely similar words, to suit the promoter’s case.
A slightly (but only slightly!) more sophisticated
version of this kind of idea was developed by Cohane
in his 1969 book The Key. This work focuses on Ireland
and Gaelic, and also involves a great deal of very loose
philology of the more usual type as discussed in earlier
sections of this paper. (There has in fact been a string
of works promoting Ireland as a major unrecognised
centre of early civilisation or even as the remains of
Atlantis.)

15) Mayan, Greek and Aramaic
A 1993 article in the creationist journal Creation Ex Nihilo
exemplifies the real ‘lunatic fringe’ in the area
represented by 13) and 14). Taking as its source Ripley’s
Believe It Or Not (!), it rehearses the claim that the Greek
alphabet, as normally recited, is really a poem in Mayan! ***
In charity, I will not comment on such a claim. Of course,
Le Plongeon claimed a century ago that Jesus spoke
Mayan on his cross, not Aramaic, and Mayan and the
Maya are still very popular among fringe thinkers.

16) Another case in Australia
An intriguing Victorian case not yet available in print
or on-line (mainly focused on links between the ‘Celts’
and Egypt and on alleged early visits to Australia; see
again Richardson) involves the owner of the
Bowerbird’s Nest Museum outside Heywood near Portland,
a most unusual institution which Skeptics visiting
the area should tour.


It will be seen from the above that the general nature
of the main problem with the linguistic aspects of
these theories/claims is very much the same. The authors,
relying largely on ‘common sense’ examination
of superficial similarities and knowing little or nothing
of historical linguistics itself, are ‘stuck’ in C18; they
are not even failing to re-invent the ‘wheel’ of careful
comparative reconstruction, because they have not seen
that this ‘wheel’ is necessary, and because the ‘easy’
method of relying on superficial similarities can readily
be applied in such a way as to ‘support’ their
nationalistic ideas or their revisionist histories. Being
isolated, private workers or small groups of the
like-minded, each with a conviction that they alone are
right, they do not talk to each other, and so they do not
observe that the same unreliable methods ‘work’ more
or less equally well for all of their mutually contradictory
claims. One can persuade oneself, using such
methods, that any two languages are related; linguists
faced with such ideas have occasionally done just this
(eg, for Mayan and English), as a tour-de-force. Even
when linguists do make a supportive contribution, they
are mainly those who are themselves on the ‘fringe’ of
academic scholarship; if they were not, they would
scarcely be involved in such ideas.


References
Here follow some key references which are (fairly) readily
available, ie recent books (in English) rather than
papers in fringe or scholarly journals. The works listed
are of a fringe nature except where marked [S]
(skeptical) or [C] (controversial work by mainstream
or near-mainstream linguists or other scholars). The
views of some other recent authors (eg, Talbott and the
other Saturnists with their journal Aeon, Vomos-Toth,
Kaulins, etc) are available mainly on web-sites; a
web-search will locate them.

* Bekerie, Ayele Ethiopic: An African Writing System 1997 RSP
* Bernal, Martin Black Athena 1987, 1991 (2 vols) Rutgers University
Press
* Bomhard, Allan R. & Kerns, John C. The Nostratic Macrofamily: A Study
In Distant Linguistic Relationship 1994 Mouton de Gruyter [C]
* Cohane, John P. The Key 1969 Turnstone
* Daniel, Glyn Writing For Antiquity 1992 (sections on Glozel) [S]
* Fell, Barry America BC 1976 Times
* Flem-Ath, Rand & Flem-Ath, Rose When The Sky Fell: In Search Of
Atlantis 1995 Orion
* Gimbutas, Marija The Language Of The Goddess 1991 Harper
* Goodison, Lucy & Morris, Christine eds. Ancient Goddesses 1998 British
Museum Press [S] (criticism of Gimbutas)
* Gordon, Cyrus Before Columbus: Links Between The Old World And
Ancient America 1971 Crown
* Hallet, Jean-Pierre Pygmy Kitabu 1973 Souvenir Press
* Lefkowitz, Mary & Maclean Rogers, Guy eds. Black Athena Revisited
1996 University of North Carolina Press [S]
* McGlone, William R., Leonard, Phillip M., Guthrie, James L., Gillespie,
Rollin W. & Whittall, James P., Jr. Ancient American Inscriptions: Plow
Marks Or History 1993 Early Sites Research Society (accepts some
non-standard claims but quite scholarly)
* Muck, Otto The Secret Of Atlantis 1978 Collins (example of a fringe
book on Atlantis with linguistic material)
* Rohl, David Legend: The Genesis Of Civilisation 1999 Arrow
* Ruhlen, Merritt The Origin Of Language 1994 John Wiley [C]
* Ryan, William & Pittman, Walter Noah’s Flood 1998 Simon & Schuster
[C]
* Scrutton, Robert The Other Atlantis 1977 Neville Spearman (Oera
Linda Book)
* Simon, Zoltan Atlantis: The Seven Seals 1984 Robinson Expeditions
* Sitchin, Zecharia The Twelfth Planet 1976 Avon
* Smithana, Don America: Land Of The Rising Sun 1990 Anasazi
* Sutcliffe, Ray ed. Chronicle 1978 BBC (section on Glozel) [S]
* Swadesh, Maurice The Origin And Diversification Of Languages 1971
Aldine [C]
* Temple, Robert The Sirius Mystery 1999 (2nd ed.) Arrow
* Van Sertima, Ivan They Came Before Columbus: The African Presence In
Early America 1976 Random House
* Williams, Stephen Fantastic Archaeology: The Wild Side Of North American
Prehistory 1990 University of Pennsylvania Press [S]
* Yaguello, Marina Lunatic Lovers Of Language 1991 Athlone (translation)
(section on Marr) [S]

(*** In fact that was claimed by James Chiuchward)

.

Edited by Abramelin, 23 March 2013 - 09:50 AM.


#3036    Knul

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 01:31 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 23 March 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

I did, but not all, I admit. I have to scroll from left to right for a mile to  read it.

And did you read this? It's from the site you are registered on:

http://www.semafoor....oorDORESTAD.pdf


,

You can read this text on my website as well.


#3037    gestur

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 03:00 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 23 March 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

And did you read this?

It ends with:

"Kortom: Dorestad-Wijk bij Duurstede is een zwakke hypothese maar alles bijeengenomen sterker dan de alternatieven."

=> "Summary: <<Dorestad = Wijk bij Duurstede>> is a weak hypothesis, but alltogether stronger than any alternative."

Posted Image "Saved from the Flood" ~ Oera-Linda studies ~ http://fryskednis.blogspot.com

#3038    Abramelin

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 03:35 PM

View Postgestur, on 23 March 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

It ends with:

"Kortom: Dorestad-Wijk bij Duurstede is een zwakke hypothese maar alles bijeengenomen sterker dan de alternatieven."

=> "Summary: <<Dorestad = Wijk bij Duurstede>> is a weak hypothesis, but alltogether stronger than any alternative."

Exactly.

And the funny thing is that I was convinced I had quoted that same line, and when I read your post I thought, "Hey, that is what I said in an earlier post", but I didn't. I had only saved that line plus link in a Notepad (Kladblok) file.

But the important thing is that of all possibilities Wijk bij Duurstede is better than the alternatives.

Even Knul has that line copied:

http://www.rodinbook...exdorestad.html

Question: how is Dorestad - whether it existed or not - important for the understanding of the OLB?

.

Edited by Abramelin, 23 March 2013 - 03:47 PM.


#3039    Apol

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 04:00 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 19 March 2013 - 06:42 PM, said:

But as the word order in the OLB is exactly the same as in modern and 19th century Dutch, fâra is nothing else but (EN) 'fare' (like in farewell = fare well, in Dutch 'vaarwel', or something like 'have a safe journey').

+++

EDIT:

bi-for-a* (1) 13?, bi-for-e* (1), bi-for-i* (1), bi-for* (1), afries., Präp.: nhd. vor,
für; ne. before (Präp.); Vw.: s. -wor-d-a; Hw.: vgl. ae. beforan (1), as. biforan, ahd.
bifora;

http://www.koeblerge...ch/afries-B.pdf

far-a (1) 80 und häufiger?, afries., st. V. (6): nhd. fahren, ziehen, gehen, reisen,
verfahren (V.), angreifen, überziehen; ne. go (V.), travel (V.), attack (V.);

http://www.koeblerge...ch/afries-F.pdf


.

Maybe you are right in this - you know the Dutch language much better than me,
I don't know. It's just that it fits exactly to Norwegian also, and that the other problem would have been solved by it.

Is the English:
the sailors then went on sailing to Denmark

an exact translation of the Dutch:
de sturers gingen dan naa de Denemarken varen ?

...or is
the sailors then went sailing to Denmark

a better translation?


#3040    Abramelin

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 04:16 PM

View PostApol, on 23 March 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

Maybe you are right in this - you know the Dutch language much better than me,
I don't know. It's just that it fits exactly to Norwegian also, and that the other problem would have been solved by it.

Is the English:
the sailors then went on sailing to Denmark

an exact translation of the Dutch:
de sturers gingen dan naa de Denemarken varen ?

...or is
the sailors then went sailing to Denmark

a better translation?

A literal translation would be:

"The steersmen went on sailing to the Denmarks". But you will agree with me that is a crappy translation, but it IS a literal translation.

"Went on" means that they continued doing something. In this case: sailing.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 23 March 2013 - 04:21 PM.


#3041    gestur

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 04:24 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 23 March 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

Question: how is Dorestad - whether it existed or not - important for the understanding of the OLB?

It aint.

But that Knul said it never existed lowers his general credibility (imo).

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#3042    Apol

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 04:28 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 23 March 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

A literal translation would be:

"The steersmen went on sailing to the Denmarks". But you will agree with me that is a crappy translation, but it IS a literal translation.

"Went on" means that they continued doing something. In this case: sailing.

.

So, gingen varen means went on sailing.

Now I found this in Gerhard Köbler's Old Frisian dictionary:

Far-a (3), afries., Adv., Präp.: Vw.: s. for-a.

For-a 35, for (2), for-e, for-i, far-a (3), afries., Adv., Präp.: nhd. vorn, zuvor, vorher, früher, vor, für; ne. in front, before, for; ÜG.: lat. ante…

I think it's this word we are looking for, and have to use in this case.

Edited by Apol, 23 March 2013 - 04:40 PM.


#3043    Abramelin

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 04:29 PM

View Postgestur, on 23 March 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

It aint.

But that Knul said it never existed lowers his general credibility (imo).

Hmmm.... do you know of Delahaye's theories?

The Nifterlake site Knul registered on is all about Delahaye.

One of Delahaye's claims is that much of the Netherlands didn't even exist between 200 and 1000 CE, based on the now discarded theory of the Dunkirk Transgressions.

According to Delahaye half of the Netherlands was flooded, uninhabitable.

But it has no relevance to the OLB. The OLB narrative is about a period long before 200 CE.

That is, of course, if you believe the OLB narrative to be a true account of the history of ancient Europe...

I don't.

.


#3044    Abramelin

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 04:32 PM

View PostApol, on 23 March 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

So, gingen varen means went on sailing.

Yes, they continued doing what they were doing, and that was sailing.

I wished Jaylemurph showed up in this thread. He is our resident linguist.


#3045    gestur

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 04:56 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 23 March 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

do you know of Delahaye's theories?

I remember that he was discussed here, but forgot the details.
Delahaye may have thought Dorestad was somewhere else, but I don't believe he would claim that it never existed.

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