Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


- - - - -

Four Reasons I Think Jesus Really Existed


  • Please log in to reply
72 replies to this topic

#31    Raptor Witness

Raptor Witness

    Savant

  • Member
  • 2,216 posts
  • Joined:17 Sep 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:So beautiful

  • ראה

Posted 21 June 2013 - 04:33 AM

View Postmarkdohle, on 19 June 2013 - 08:18 PM, said:

A small handful of scholars today, and a much larger group of Internet commenters, maintain that Jesus never existed. Proponents of this position, known as mythicists, claim that Jesus is a purely mythical figure invented by the writers of the New Testament (or its later copyists.) In this post I’ll offer the top four reasons (from weakest to strongest) that convince me Jesus of Nazareth was a real person without relying on the Gospel accounts of his life.

Continue: http://www.catholic....-really-existed
Rome kills Jesus, but later submits to His authority. Now that's some heavy history.

Posted Image "Make Manifest Destiny a memory ..." 12-7-2011  "When the earth is displaced fully three times at the point of destiny ..." 10-29-2013

#32    Zaphod222

Zaphod222

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,594 posts
  • Joined:05 Sep 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tokyo

  • When the gods wish to punish us, they answer our prayers.
    (Oscar Wilde)

Posted 21 June 2013 - 05:00 AM

Irrelevant, I am still waiting.
Your so-called "prophesy" was:
"" The sun will be darkened and the Moon will not give its light,  and the stars will fall from Heaven, then they will mourn as they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven""

Well, I am still waiting to hear from you what this discombobbled nonsensical word soup is supposed to mean in straight English, and how we can verify it.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)

#33    Frank Merton

Frank Merton

    Blue fish

  • Member
  • 12,586 posts
  • Joined:22 Jan 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam

  • I dunno --

Posted 21 June 2013 - 05:10 AM

My view is that Jesus as a person is almost certainly a myth evolved in an early Greek Jewish-Messiah mystery cult, written down as the Gospels late in the first century or perhaps later (the earliest mss fragments date from a century after that).

The fact is we have nothing of an independent nature to verify him (at least except for the clearly fraudulent additions to Josephus) dating from before the first century -- way to late to be considered good sources.

There is also serious reason to doubt that the "city" of Nazareth existed until the fourth century, when a church was that claimed to be Nazareth and a settlement that we know today grew up around it.  The place is not mentioned in any earlier sources, including long lists of Galilean towns found in the Talmud and in Josephus.

What are we to conclude if the Jesus story is a myth?  Does that mean all of Christianity is essentially based on fable.  Well, yes, it does, but so what?  Even if the whole story were absolute truth, it would have no bearing.  What Christians do today is what matters.


#34    Irrelevant

Irrelevant

    Apparition

  • Closed
  • PipPip
  • 357 posts
  • Joined:24 Apr 2013
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 21 June 2013 - 05:30 AM

You really are pushing, why do you want to know ?

Have you read the story of Simon the magi in the bible?

I'm not here to convert, the Holy Spirit does the work with this and thats why i say it.

I would rather let one of the others tell you.







#35    Doug1o29

Doug1o29

    Majestic 12 Operative

  • Member
  • 5,715 posts
  • Joined:01 Aug 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:oklahoma

Posted 21 June 2013 - 01:11 PM

View PostIrrelevant, on 21 June 2013 - 12:41 AM, said:

Josephus was not a Christian redaction, and you make sweeping claims of redactions all through your post to  justify your own " gut feeling".  If you think he never existed your in the minority, as the simple quoted link above would show.
Josephus was a priest who was also a commanding general in Galilee during the Great Jewish War.  He was captured by the Romans and offered amnesty if he would persuade some of the defenders of the Temple to surrender.  He subsequently was sent to Rome as a slave where he wrote his histories, the most recent of which, the Great Jewish War, was completed in about 92 AD.  He is a historical figure, but his writings have been redacted, as I demonstrated.

Tacitus' account of the human torches would be much easier to defend if somebody else had mentioned it.  But not even Nero's advisors who wrote books and would have had firsthand knowledge of such an event, mention it.

Please show me how these constitute "gut feelings."


Your Wiki post is by an anonymous author who quotes anonymous sources.  It presents no information at all to support its contentions.  Anybody can post on Wiki.  It is a good place to look for sources, but worthless for anything else.


I never said that Josephus was a Christian.  I said that if he believed what is written in the Testimonium Flavianum, he would have been one.  But he wasn't and that speaks volumes about the reliability of the Testimonium and its authorship.


There are seven Pauline letters commonly regarded as "authentic."  But only one, the first one, can be dated.  And the best date for it is 96 AD; although, 117 is a possibility that can't simply be dismissed.


I'm not saying that an itinerant Galilean preacher named Jesus did or didn't actually live.  I am saying that there is no evidence that such a person ever existed.  No evidence is just that:  no evidence.  It neither supports nor refutes a claim.  Jesus may have been real, but we have no way of knowing that.

Please read what I wrote and don't try to misquote me.
Doug

Edited by Doug1o29, 21 June 2013 - 01:21 PM.

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#36    docyabut2

docyabut2

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 3,143 posts
  • Joined:12 Aug 2011

Posted 21 June 2013 - 01:45 PM

That one letter is of Mark`s, the gospel of Mark, there is no virgin birth, and his uncle Joseph takes him down from the cross and wraps him in a cloth( the shoud)? and takes him to his tomb.  However Jesus was not dead.He and others then take Jesus to his disciples badly injured, when Jesus was finish speaking to his disciples, he then passed on.  I believe much of what was written after that was added, the virgin story ect, ect. The inguires Jesus had from the cross, he could have never just walked out of a tomb or walked around for forty days.

I am Christain, but it does`nt take miracles or stories for me to believe the goodness and hope Jesus had to teach, he was truely one of a kind.

Edited by docyabut2, 21 June 2013 - 01:56 PM.


#37    flbrnt

flbrnt

    Alien Embryo

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 109 posts
  • Joined:16 Feb 2013

Posted 21 June 2013 - 01:48 PM

View PostIrrelevant, on 19 June 2013 - 10:57 PM, said:

There's many who claim it http://en.wikipedia....ssiah_claimants

What's interesting is that Muslims, Christians , Mesianic Jews acknowledged Jesus as the one in his age, there's a few there who are missing from the list..Barabas, " give us Barabas" was one many thought might be because he led revolts against the Romans another

Ben Judah, .years shortly after Jesus from memory.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menahem_ben_Judah

It's been a long time since I did my overview on this topic.
Another interesting point. Bar Abbas means Son of the Father (God?)


#38    Doug1o29

Doug1o29

    Majestic 12 Operative

  • Member
  • 5,715 posts
  • Joined:01 Aug 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:oklahoma

Posted 21 June 2013 - 02:37 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 21 June 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

That one letter is of Mark`s, the gospel of Mark, there is no virgin birth, and his uncle Joseph takes him down from the cross and wraps him in a cloth( the shoud)? and takes him to his tomb.  However Jesus was not dead.He and others then take Jesus to his disciples badly injured, when Jesus was finish speaking to his disciples, he then passed on.  I believe much of what was written after that was added, the virgin story ect, ect. The inguires Jesus had from the cross, he could have never just walked out of a tomb or walked around for forty days.

I am Christain, but it does`nt take miracles or stories for me to believe the goodness and hope Jesus had to teach, he was truely one of a kind.
According to Walter Cassels ("Supernatural Religion"), the existence of what we now call the gospels cannot be demonstrated at any time before they are mentioned by Irenaeus in about 186 AD (I'd argue slightly earlier for Matthew, and I note that Theophilus of Antioch referred to the Book of John in a letter he wrote shortly before his death in 180 AD.).  The fact that the earliest writings lack apocryphal stories and that these were added with time argues for a fourth century date on our gospels.

I admit that this conflicts with what I have posted on previous threads.  I am now having to rethink some of that.

The earliest datable fragment is 12 verses in Mark (without which Mark would have 666 verses) that were written by Philo of Alexandria in 41 AD when Herod Agrippa ("King of the Jews") visited Alexandria.  Because 666 is the number of "Caesar Nero" (Emperor from 54 to 68 AD) in Jewish numerology, I propose that this fragment about Jesus' hazing and the purple robe, is an add-on, discovered by some writer at a later date and added to the gospel.  This could have happened no earlier than 54 AD.  The victim's name in the hazing incident is Carabbas.  The name is gibberish, but change one letter...  And Philo was a Jew and would have known that.

The fall of the Temple is clearly mentioned in the gospels, placing them after 70AD.  Paul's first letter (1st Corinthians) is mentioned in 1st Clement, placing it before 96 AD.

Matthew and Mark describe an "abomination in a high place" where it "had not ought to be."  That high place being Temple Mount and the abomination being the Temple to Zeus built by the Roman Tenth Legion in 131 AD.  The Legion placed a statue of their mascot - a boar's head - in front of the temple, probably to antagonize the Jews and remind them that they were a conquered people.  In the Bible Jesus solved the problem by ordering a bunch of demons (named "Legion") into 2000 pigs (the number of men in a Roman legion).  The story effectively dates to the Bar Kochba Rebellion of 132-135 AD.  The Apocalypses of Matthew and Mark suggest that the hammer-blow from Rome has not yet fallen, but is imminently expected.

I used to think that this story dated Matthew and Mark to the Bar Kochba Rebeliion, but then I realized that writings of that time contain no apocryphal references.  Those started being added about the time of Eusebius, so now I am thinking that a writer in the fourth century took the second-century version of the gospels and added some embellishments and that is what we now have.

Also, I used to think that Justin the Martyr quoted heavily from our modern gospels.  Then I realized that the stories he was telling were fundamentally different and contained details unknown in our current gospels - like Jesus being enveloped in fire when he emerged from being baptized in the Jordan.  So, our current gospels are not the same as those known to Justin.

While the four modern gospels date from much later, there remain non-canonical gospels from far earlier.  If there is any historical truth to the story of Jesus, it will be found there.  But finding it is not going to be easy.
Doug

Edited by Doug1o29, 21 June 2013 - 02:46 PM.

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#39    Irrelevant

Irrelevant

    Apparition

  • Closed
  • PipPip
  • 357 posts
  • Joined:24 Apr 2013
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 21 June 2013 - 03:17 PM

I wasn't able to edit my post Doug so I had to write it again somewhat underneath. The wiki link I apologised for in advance, however it  was short and to the point with regards to a overview of the established information point of view, including on the Pauline letters.

Here's a angle:
Have you reviewed the Persian Zorastrian connections? there's 3 city's in Iran that claim the magi are from them,St Jude established what could be the oldest Christian churches ( converted zorastrian temples)..this is before Rome.

And then there's the Astronomy aspect, Jupiter ( the king maker)..something the monotheistic Zoroastrians knew about, hence why they came looking for Jesus.  Astronomical/Physical evidence is there for this event.


And then there's the Dead Sea scrolls, external information, buried away,  the Gospel of Mary, its claimed as the oldest book contemporary to Jesus ( one day we may all like to do a thread on why those pages might be missing)   what is interesting is when the Dead Sea scrolls are reconciled against other scripture, there accurate, and there's still many more being translated.











#40    Doug1o29

Doug1o29

    Majestic 12 Operative

  • Member
  • 5,715 posts
  • Joined:01 Aug 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:oklahoma

Posted 21 June 2013 - 03:45 PM

View PostIrrelevant, on 21 June 2013 - 03:17 PM, said:

I wasn't able to edit my post Doug so I had to write it again somewhat underneath. The wiki link I apologised for in advance, however it  was short and to the point with regards to a overview of the established information point of view, including on the Pauline letters.

Here's a angle:
Have you reviewed the Persian Zorastrian connections? there's 3 city's in Iran that claim the magi are from them,St Jude established what could be the oldest Christian churches ( converted zorastrian temples)..this is before Rome.

And then there's the Astronomy aspect, Jupiter ( the king maker)..something the monotheistic Zoroastrians knew about, hence why they came looking for Jesus.  Astronomical/Physical evidence is there for this event.


And then there's the Dead Sea scrolls, external information, buried away,  the Gospel of Mary, its claimed as the oldest book contemporary to Jesus ( one day we may all like to do a thread on why those pages might be missing)   what is interesting is when the Dead Sea scrolls are reconciled against other scripture, there accurate, and there's still many more being translated.
All I'm saying here is that what is in the modern gospels can't be trusted.  They contain no reliable evidence for Jesus.  There are a lot of non-canonical sources that have a lot to say and going through them is going to take a lot of time.  There are many historical events and people referenced in the gospels (official and unofficial).  I have mentioned some of them.  Historical references is a good way to determine dates (Justin dedicates his Apology to Antoninus Pius and his sons Lucius Veras and Marcus Aurelius, clearing dating the book before 160 AD).

Jor-el, right here on UM, has done a  lot of work on the astrological aspects.  I haven't had time to go back and dig up all his stuff, but it sure sounds intriguing, though.  One thing does puzzle me, though.  The Jews didn't believe in astrology.  They regarded it as a black art.  I think we need to be very careful about claiming astrological connections for the Bible, unless we're trying to show a later date in something written by a gentile.

But you're right:  those books may have a lot to say.
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#41    glorybebe

glorybebe

    Non-Corporeal Being

  • Member
  • 8,702 posts
  • Joined:24 Feb 2007
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Canada

Posted 21 June 2013 - 04:00 PM

I believe Jesus was a real person.  I believe he was a prophet.  But, the Son of God?  No.  Just someone who preached peace and brotherly love as anyone with any caring in such a harsh period of history would have.

Edited by glorybebe, 21 June 2013 - 04:01 PM.

Save the Earth! It's the only planet with chocolate!

#42    Irrelevant

Irrelevant

    Apparition

  • Closed
  • PipPip
  • 357 posts
  • Joined:24 Apr 2013
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 21 June 2013 - 04:30 PM

And that's why none knew in Israel  of the astronomy pointing to the birth of Jesus , whilst the Zoroastrians did. And we with modern science can trace these events right back to the very day ( or so)

A lot of your work involves those from Rome, Justin the martyr was beheaded and not much of his work is known (from memory) .

There is minor discrepancies in the canonised bible accounts, that shows its not made of collusion IMO.

There's also the Gospel of Thomas...used by the Coptic Christians, in that the resurrection account differs, it was a spiritual resurrection,  which interestingly enough points  to why Jesus asked him to poke his flesh in the traditional Canonised books..

I'm not saying I don't agree that some might very well have done a nip and tuck in places, we only need to read the various printed bibles of today  to see the different translations in our age,   Some say Eagles some say Vultures for the same passage.

And the way the traditional mt Sinai was founded by Constantine is likewise strange..






#43    Raptor Witness

Raptor Witness

    Savant

  • Member
  • 2,216 posts
  • Joined:17 Sep 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:So beautiful

  • ראה

Posted 21 June 2013 - 04:34 PM

View Postglorybebe, on 21 June 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

I believe Jesus was a real person.  I believe he was a prophet.  But, the Son of God?  No.  Just someone who preached peace and brotherly love as anyone with any caring in such a harsh period of history would have.
But what would motivate you to leave everything you have, your family, your job, everything; to go out and make the rest of the world believe in someone who was dead?

That's your motivator, that's what changed history, not words, not speeches ...POWER.

Back then, people didn't live long lives like we do today. The average life expectancy was half or even less. The promise of eternal life, coming from a man who they believe rose from the dead, was the motivation. They weren't stupid, they saw something different. They saw a unique power, and they ran and told everyone else until the day they died.

Edited by Raptor Witness, 21 June 2013 - 04:37 PM.

Posted Image "Make Manifest Destiny a memory ..." 12-7-2011  "When the earth is displaced fully three times at the point of destiny ..." 10-29-2013

#44    GreenmansGod

GreenmansGod

    Bio-Electric sentient being.

  • Member
  • 9,388 posts
  • Joined:23 Jun 2004
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Hurricane State

  • May the laughter ye give today return to thee 3 fold.

Posted 21 June 2013 - 05:11 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 20 June 2013 - 04:17 AM, said:

Existed, he's dead now.

Maybe, I miss Mako, he was a good historian who knew his stuff. Here is was something he posted a long time ago.   Hail, Mako, whatever you may be doing, be well, my friend.

http://www.unexplain...6

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." Salman Rushdie

#45    Zaphod222

Zaphod222

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,594 posts
  • Joined:05 Sep 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tokyo

  • When the gods wish to punish us, they answer our prayers.
    (Oscar Wilde)

Posted 21 June 2013 - 05:29 PM

View PostIrrelevant, on 21 June 2013 - 05:30 AM, said:

You really are pushing, why do you want to know ?
Have you read the story of Simon the magi in the bible?
I'm not here to convert, the Holy Spirit does the work with this and thats why i say it.
I would rather let one of the others tell you.

Yes, I am pushing. You claim to have a prophesy, so tell it!
The nonsensical rambling that you did post makes no sense at all.
I am simply calling your BS.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users