Fenris Posted July 7, 2004 #1 Share Posted July 7, 2004 (edited) The UK government is planning to bring in more laws against religious hate At first glance many people will think this is a good thing, however I am not convinced. I was part of the Pagan community in the mid 80's/early 90's when we were litraly 'under attack' by Christian fundies in the Social services. A time where EVERY Pagan who had kids had reason to worry about being targeted. Even if we weren't directly targeted, most of us knew at least one friend or aquaintence who was having access problems where a non-pagan ex and the christian dominated court system was using the 'suspician' caused by the general panic caused by the unfounded allegations from Social services, to use our religion as sole reason to deny access to our children. It was only when the governments own official report by Professor Jean La Fontaine came out which tore the fundies apart saying things such as "I think the evangelicals created the climate in which people could believe this sort of thing was happening" Lost them enough credibility to stop them being effective.... at least openly! Make no mistake, those people or people like them are still in such positions and the only thing stopping them repeating it is the likelyhood that another Fontaine will stop them.... But now, if this new law comes into effect, I am concerned that exception will be made so they can attack pagans "For the good of the children".... yet reports that debunk THEM pointing out the reasons for their actions are their religious beliefs will be undermined and possibly stopped/Diverted as "An attack likely to incite religious hatred" Note to Mods.... This topic could equaly apply to Conspiricys or religion... I'll leave it to you to decide if it needs moving. edited the link should work now... Edited July 7, 2004 by Celti Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted July 7, 2004 #2 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Damn Pagans! We are under attack in America as well Fenris. What used to be 'Freedom of Religion' is now evolving into Freedom From Religion. It is a different deal though. Instead of the Christians attacking the 'pagans', it is the Left attacking the Christians. Why can't people just believe what they want to believe? What is so hard about that? Nobody is completely 100% right in their beliefs, and it is entirely possible that all of us are 100% wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odinsgrl Posted July 7, 2004 #3 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Wow, Fenris. Here I was thinking that the UK would be more resposive to Pagans, but I guess not. What exactly does this law state? I'm very curious. It is a different deal though. Instead of the Christians attacking the 'pagans', it is the Left attacking the Christians. Why can't people just believe what they want to believe? What is so hard about that? I wholeheartedly agree, Joc. People should believe what they want. But I think, that most of the "left" as you call them, want to do just that. The Cristian Church is very widely known for almost, forcing thier beliefs on others. Which is why, most other religions don't care for them. I would however, like you to point out some instances where you think this is happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenris Posted July 7, 2004 Author #4 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Why can't people just believe what they want to believe? What is so hard about that? Even if such diverse people as you and I can agree on that point joc, fundies on BOTH sides don't and they are the problem..... but this IS a Christian dominated culture and there are far more Christian fundies in positions of power (Your own President is undoubtably a fundie!) than Fundies of any other type.... folks like myself have more to be concerned about than any Christian.... but neither of us should forget that its the 'Fundamentalist' part that is the problem, not the bulk of whatever religion they proport to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odinsgrl Posted July 7, 2004 #5 Share Posted July 7, 2004 (edited) far more Christian fundies in positions of power (Your own President is undoubtably a fundie!) Yes, sadly, Fenris, that is true. I don't have a problem, with others religion, hell, sing it from the highest mountain, for all I care. But when thier beliefs, infect my way of life, I get a little peeved. I just read about the new law you were talking about. Wow. Thats pretty scary. The bad part is, some laws look great on the outside, but generally lead to twisting and bending of said law, to affect the situation. We here in the U.S., were just graced with one such law. Where if an unborn child is killed, in an act of murder, it is protected under homicide laws, as if it were a full grown human. Sounds great on the outside, but it just gives some fundimentalist groups, ammo for abortion laws. Scary. Edited July 7, 2004 by odinsgrl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenris Posted July 7, 2004 Author #6 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Wow, Fenris. Here I was thinking that the UK would be more resposive to Pagans, but I guess not. What exactly does this law state? I'm very curious. Its far better now than it was 12-15 years ago (Which is about the worst I experienced in the last 20 or so years) when Fundies in the UK social services had 'constructed' enough paranoia about Paganism that they had the body of public support. Berely a week would go by without some sort of headline about "Baby eating pagans" and "Satanic abuse" being plastered over the tabloids and nobody was listening to us pointing out that Satan was THEIR belief not ours and we where parents who where just as concerned about the safety of our kids as any of them! It came to a head when 85 familys in Orkney and Rochdale had their children removed and placed in care on vaige suspicions of 'occult'.... this was SO big and so blatent that the government HAD to investigate. Prof Fontaine headed that investigation and found that out of the 85 cases, 82 showed no evidence of abuse AT ALL... and even in the 3 cases where it was likely there was some form of abuse, there was no evidence of it having any link to anything 'occult'. The report found that 'evangelical Christians' within social services had constructed, exagerated and even fabricated rumours and down right LIES to strengthen the support for their own extream views.... It didn't state that those attacks had effectivly forced many Pagan parents into the 'broom closet' to try and protect their kids.... nor the general perception of the public which ment access rights where denied people just because they where parents (A friend of mine was denied the right to see his daughter for nearly 5 years... and why? Because he was Pagan and that was an "Unsuitable enviroment" for her!!! It was only as a teen she was able to demand she be allowed to see her father) The actual body of this law hasn't been released yet, but the Home secretary envisages it as an extention to the racial descrimination laws.... however Paganism isn't an officialy recognied religion here and I am concerned that it could be used to silence effective rebuttals of Fundie attacks such as occured over a decade ago....... I am hoping public awareness of Paganism has changed the perception of us so that it won't happen and the genral public won't be so ready to believe the Fundies unsubstanciated claims.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odinsgrl Posted July 7, 2004 #7 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Wow, thats so sad for those families. I personally don't have any schildren, but I do know several Pagans who do, and have been "under investigation" for abuse. I, unfortuanely live in a VERY Catholic state, New Mexico. And although I personally, have never met a violent extremist, (oops, there is one exception), they are very forceful about thier beliefs. But to be fair, the MOST forceful (by that I mean, getting in my face all the time about joining thier religion) group I've met out here isn't Christian at all. Its the, Scientologists. Hehe, go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsr Posted July 7, 2004 #8 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Amazing how "hate speech" and "hate crimes" legislation by any nation, sounds familiar to the eroding of freedoms and rights which occurred in Russia and China through communists, and Germany through national socialism. Do the legislatures even have a clue that they are turning their freer countries into spawning sites for internal government collapse? More thoughts on the topic in several areas... aclu for the rights of some for free speech, but not for all http://archive.aclu.org/library/pbp16.html watch out for unwanted keyloggers http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/internet/06/1...online.hate.ap/ http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,...7,56294,00.html some us problems http://www.spectacle.org/freespch/musm/hate.html thoughts from eff http://www.eff.org//Censorship/Hate-speech...discrimination/ In a free society we all get a voice, in anything else, few voices are heard http://www2.sjsu.edu/faculty/Brent/190/hatelinks.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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