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Atheism - any contradictions or 'problems'?


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#91    Paranoid Android

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 01:21 PM

View Posteight bits, on 01 February 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

PA

What is your evidence that anybody who met Jesus was ever placed in a position to choose between being killed and recanting their teaching?
Granted, my comments were based on the tradition that certain followers of Jesus were martyred. Peter, for example, is said to have been crucified upside down for his beliefs (he refused to be crucified the same way as Jesus). And yes, I understand that this is tradition and not necessarily backed up by other historical sources.  Perhaps I was too forceful in my comment.

Nevertheless, the early Christian leaders were far from rich.  The "retail deal" which ended up being fatal was not because the person refused to give money, the reason was because the person lied about not giving what he said he would.  On the flipside, Paul is said to have spurned the money offered to travelling preachers (apparently it was a lucrative business).  Instead he is said to have worked as a tent-maker to pay his way.

I've never seen the Godfather series, so I can't directly comment, but I get the meaning of why you posted.  In short, I guess I would ask whether the early Christian leaders were really as rich as what you are arguing them to be.

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#92    Tiggs

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 01:23 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 01 February 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

I'm not in disagreement with that view.  All I'm saying is that those earliest followers obviously did believe what they were preaching, because for many of them their fate was not riches but death.

First century Jerusalem. Not exactly renown for having the lowest mortality rate in the world, ever.


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#93    Paranoid Android

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 01:25 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 01 February 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

The early Christians were not wealthy; mostly they were the poor and the lower ranks in the army, and of course quite a few slaves.  Where did any get any idea otherwise?

Wealth did not come into the church until Constantine.  Of course at that time it became the thing to be if you were up and coming.
I didn't get that idea.  I was responding to the claims made by others that Christianity started for *and I quote* - "power, an insatiable lust for power, riches and glory".  And then as a follow-up for the quote when the argument against it was that several passages suggest that Christian leaders should not abuse their positions or be in it for money, the reply *again I quote* - "they lied".

But thank you for supporting my point, clearly and succinctly :tu:

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#94    Frank Merton

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 01:27 PM

View PostJinxdom, on 01 February 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

It just is or I don't know. Either answer works to stop the circular thinking. It will drive you mad if you think about it long enough.

Hence my avatar actually :P
My view is that when one runs into a logical impossibility, it is a good clue that there is a flaw in the assumptions.  The assumption here is that something has always existed.  This derives from the illusion of causation, something which both Hume and Kant demolished in their different ways.  (Sorry for the philosophical name-dropping but this notion is so counterintuitive I feel I need to get some support).

I conclude that time had to have a beginning.  This can be pushed back really far -- even way before the Big Bang, but there had to be a beginning.  That doesn't mean there was once a time when there was no time -- it means that time started and there was nothing "before" it -- that "before the beginning of time" is meaningless.

I think our mathematics fools us, but it is our invention.  The number line stretches from negative to positive infinity, or at least we think it does.  It doesn't.  Infinity is not a number.


#95    Rlyeh

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 01:28 PM

View PostCrikey, on 01 February 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

You're thinking in earthly material-universe terms mate.. :)
God is outside our petty laws of physics so it's difficult for us to realise that he's always existed, and always will.
No, it's called special pleading. Faced with a problem? Pretend it doesn't apply.


#96    Zaphod222

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 01:29 PM

View PostVerloc, on 01 February 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

Atheists,Agnostic,Religious doesn't matter, mutual respect of each other's viewpoints is all we need, doesn't matter how ridiculous it is.(and yes that means even the Scientologists and the Mormons *sigh*

So, does that attitude of yours include Nazis? Bolsheviks? The Manson Familiy?
You accept them all with the same loving acceptance? Or do you acknowledge that some beliefs should be criticised?

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#97    Paranoid Android

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 01:30 PM

View PostTiggs, on 01 February 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

First century Jerusalem. Not exactly renown for having the lowest mortality rate in the world, ever.
And yet first century Christians were being persecuted for their faith.  Some of these ways were more subtle than others.  Jewish converts who turned to Christ would often find themselves being charged higher prices for goods and services by their Jewish colleagues who remained Jewish.  That's only a small example, but it is still a form of persecution.  If I wanted a loaf of bread and I was being charged $4 instead of $2 simply because I'd converted to a different belief, I'd be pretty PO'ed...

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#98    Frank Merton

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 01:34 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 01 February 2013 - 01:25 PM, said:

And then as a follow-up for the quote when the argument against it was that several passages suggest that Christian leaders should not abuse their positions or be in it for money, the reply *again I quote* - "they lied".
We do see anti-religious feeling aimed at wealth, and there are preachers in it for the money.  Early Christianity was, as you said, different.  I think the stories of Jesus and the apostles are myths developed out of a nascent Messianic religion during the First Century and written down toward its end, but not for nefarious purposes.  Indeed, anyone reading the New Testament can see that making money is about the last thing on their minds.


#99    Zaphod222

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 01:35 PM

View PostCrikey, on 01 February 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

I don't understand mate. The Bible is so full of inconsistencies and contradictions that it can't possibly have been edited can it?

Why not? Where do you get the idea from that "edited" equals "no contradictions"?

View PostCrikey, on 01 February 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

Even the Koran and Buddhism is full of them.

Koran, yes. Buddhism? Dunno. Buddhism seemed like a pretty congruent system of thought to me. But I take your word for it. So what?

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)

#100    Crikey

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 01:37 PM

View Postranrod, on 01 February 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

You claim the bible is historically accurate so it is YOUR burden to prove it.

Proofs of negations are meaningless. Eg, I claim you are being controlled by invisible spirits who make you write these fallacies - prove that I'm wrong!

1-  As Paranoid Android pointed out in post #61- "in the years immediately after Jesus, there was no colossus of a church, there were no riches and glory.  There was death and persecution"  
So why on earth would people sit down and "invent" Jesus and Christianity if it meant they were likely to be executed?

2- You say you could claim that spirits control Christians into writing fallacies. I could therefore say that demons control atheists like ventriloquists dummies to spout anti-christianity propaganda..:)
As a matter of interest, which bit of this do you think sounds demonic?-
"Love God, love one another, feed the hungry, house the homeless, clothe the destitute, tend the sick, visit the prisoners, look after the poor"- Jesus of Nazareth (Mark 12:30, John 13:34, Matt 25: 37-40)


#101    eight bits

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 01:38 PM

PA

So, you seem to have invited me to extend the query in my previous post,

Quote

I'm not in disagreement with that view.  All I'm saying is that those earliest followers obviously did believe what they were preaching, because for many of them their fate was not riches but death.

Acts depicts Peter and other apostles persecuted for miracle working, not for the content of their speech. Nobody disputed that they did miracles and invoked Jesus when doing them, so there were no disputed facts for them to recant. Stephen was killed for an overt blapshemy about a question of Jewish religion, not for anything he taught about Jesus' life.

Stephen wasn't a witness anyway, so far as we know, but was at least a close associate in the Jerusalem ministry. Paul is neither a witness nor well placed in the Jerusalem ministry, a point of pride with him. He does endure the hardships and risks of the road, and has poor relations with various local authorities, but the actual subject of their quarrels is at best vague.

There's nobody getting killed in the canon for what they preach about Jesus' life, nor even much record of preaching what the preacher was a witness to.

Edited by eight bits, 01 February 2013 - 01:39 PM.

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#102    Tiggs

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 01:42 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 01 February 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

And yet first century Christians were being persecuted for their faith.  Some of these ways were more subtle than others.  Jewish converts who turned to Christ would often find themselves being charged higher prices for goods and services by their Jewish colleagues who remained Jewish.  That's only a small example, but it is still a form of persecution.  If I wanted a loaf of bread and I was being charged $4 instead of $2 simply because I'd converted to a different belief, I'd be pretty PO'ed...

Interesting. What evidence do you have for that, exactly?


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#103    Frank Merton

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 01:44 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 01 February 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

And yet first century Christians were being persecuted for their faith.  Some of these ways were more subtle than others.  Jewish converts who turned to Christ would often find themselves being charged higher prices for goods and services by their Jewish colleagues who remained Jewish.  That's only a small example, but it is still a form of persecution.  If I wanted a loaf of bread and I was being charged $4 instead of $2 simply because I'd converted to a different belief, I'd be pretty PO'ed...
Not as much as you would think.  For the most part the early Christians were not even noticed.  There is one extant letter about them from Trajan, and in it he instructs a policy of allowing those who seek out martyrdom to have what they want but no investigations, no accepting of informer stories, no testing.

The Romans really were a very tolerant bunch when it comes to religion.  The Jews were entirely unmolested, in spite of their refusal to engage in the state rituals, because of their antiquity.  The Christians, once they were recognized as separate, did not have that protection, and it was considered important for the welfare of the country that the gods not be insulted.  The Druids came under serious persecution because of human sacrifice (kinda ironic when you have the Coliseum built for something similar).

A period of serious persecution occurred much later under Diocletian, and probably led to Christianity's ultimate success (among many other factors) because of the example the martyrs set.  After Christianity became dominant, a veritable cult of martyrs set in, and you'd think the pre-Christian Romans had nothing to do except chase and kill Christians.


#104    Zaphod222

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 01:44 PM

View PostJinxdom, on 01 February 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

Atheism and Theism is about the existence of deities. The debate is on if deities are real. I.E. They both have the same argument.

No. False logic. Believing in an irrational tale is not the same as not believing in an irrational tale.

By your logic, somebody who believes that he is constantly followed by an invisible giant rabbit and Elvis lives in his attic is to be taken just as serious as all the people who do not believe they are followed by invisitable giant rabbits and Elvis lives in their attic.

Really?

No banana. Try again.

Edited by Zaphod222, 01 February 2013 - 01:44 PM.

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#105    Frank Merton

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 01:49 PM

View PostZaphod222, on 01 February 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

Koran, yes. Buddhism? Dunno. Buddhism seemed like a pretty congruent system of thought to me. But I take your word for it. So what?
Only recently, I think under Western influence, has the idea of Scripture entered Buddhism.  There is a massive library of Buddhist writings, in Pali and later in Sanskrit, and of course subsequent writings from all over, but this is not seen as anything like "The Word of God."  It is only the writings of wise and holy and venerated men (I doubt there are any from women, but it is such a huge corpus there may be).  Let me tell you, it is chock full of contradictions.  Monks love arguing over this sort of thing.

This business of contradictions kinda gets me.  I suppose if your teaching is that a writing is infallible, then a contradiction presents something of a problem, but maybe not even then, since it may be only your interpretation that creates the contradiction.





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