282 replies to this topic

[Paranoid Android]

shadowhive, on 30 January 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

Hmmm now, let me think about why its cruel. Well one group of people (ie Christians) get to spent an eternity in some sort of paradise while another (everyone else) is either a: etrnally tortured or b:permenantly erased.

I cannot biblically support Option A.  As for Option B, would you like me to find a quote (recently, less than a week old) from a person on this site who has said that FOR THEM, permanent erasure (that is, dying forever) would be "heaven" for them..... I can find the post, I should have bookmarked it for such an occasion as this.  

shadowhive, on 30 January 2013 - 04:13 PM, said:

However, you neatly side stepped the question posed to you.

You are right, I apologise.  If you would like a biblical answer (and I don't expect agreement), see Romans 9:

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,  in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
~ Romans 9:22-24

What if those who weren't called were created so that those who were knew what it meant to not be called?  Kind of like a pro-footballer who trains their entire lives to make the Cut for first-team selection, how can they appreciate making the team if they didn't have to beat three other players for their starting position.  Would a footballer really respect their place in the squad if they just walked up and took their place?  No.  In fact, the opposite happens - those who are naturally gifted at sport when they are young don't need to work to make the first team, so when they reach the Pro's, they also think they just need to turn up and make it.  They don't understand that at the top they actually need to work for it, and those who are most gifted are often those who fall hardest and never make it at all.

[Paranoid Android]

redhen, on 30 January 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

Moral evil is easily answered; free will. That's why you will find library stacks filled with books on moral evil. The section allocated for natural evil is almost empty. There is no satisfactory answer to it.

First, the concept of "free will" is up for debate.  Second, the concept of "natural evil" is actually quite succinctly explained by the same reasoning I posited earlier - what if the purpose for mankind on this earth is not happiness?  the problem of evil is predicated on the assumption that if God exists he desires that its creation spend life here on earth as happy and content as can be.  That is an assumption that must be challenged, and cannot be verified by those who claim the problem exists.

[shadowhive]

Paranoid Android, on 30 January 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

I cannot biblically support Option A.  As for Option B, would you like me to find a quote (recently, less than a week old) from a person on this site who has said that FOR THEM, permanent erasure (that is, dying forever) would be "heaven" for them..... I can find the post, I should have bookmarked it for such an occasion as this.

The key words in there (and I'll bold them to be cear) is for them. You can find quotes for people for think that heaven for them is anything from a field of flowers, being surrounded by loved ones of being locked in a room of a celebrity of their choosing. So one person saying that heaven 'for them' would be permenant death is as pointless to your arguement as a quote from someone else saying that heaven for them is an a room of infinite chocolate.

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You are right, I apologise.  If you would like a biblical answer (and I don't expect agreement), see Romans 9:

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,  in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
~ Romans 9:22-24

What if those who weren't called were created so that those who were knew what it meant to not be called?  Kind of like a pro-footballer who trains their entire lives to make the Cut for first-team selection, how can they appreciate making the team if they didn't have to beat three other players for their starting position.  Would a footballer really respect their place in the squad if they just walked up and took their place?  No.  In fact, the opposite happens - those who are naturally gifted at sport when they are young don't need to work to make the first team, so when they reach the Pro's, they also think they just need to turn up and make it.  They don't understand that at the top they actually need to work for it, and those who are most gifted are often those who fall hardest and never make it at all.

You know, you really shouldn't be a preacher. Because the more I read from you, the worse your god seems to be. It seems almost every time we get in any sort of discussion you manage to actually make me even less willing to be christian than when I entered it.

That comparison doesn't hold much weight. For several reasons. First, if you dont make the team a trap door doesn't open beneath your feet dropping you into a rancor pit. Failure does not mean instant death and you always have the chance to try again. Second, you can be naturally gifted (chosen) or you can train really hard and get in the same position. And third everyone else isn't there just for the benefit of raising you up.

Perhaps that's analysing it a bit too much.

Basically what youre saying is god created everyone else so the chosen can see how superior and how better they are than everyone else by comparison. Lovely.

[Paranoid Android]

shadowhive, on 30 January 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

The key words in there (and I'll bold them to be cear) is for them. You can find quotes for people for think that heaven for them is anything from a field of flowers, being surrounded by loved ones of being locked in a room of a celebrity of their choosing. So one person saying that heaven 'for them' would be permenant death is as pointless to your arguement as a quote from someone else saying that heaven for them is an a room of infinite chocolate.

Exactly.  And my point was that not everyone thinks an eternal life with God is good.  If you don't like the "key words" I presented, then take yourself as an example - would you be happy to be forced to spend eternity with a God whom you (later in this post) admit you DO NOT want to follow?

shadowhive, on 30 January 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

You know, you really shouldn't be a preacher. Because the more I read from you, the worse your god seems to be. It seems almost every time we get in any sort of discussion you manage to actually make me even less willing to be christian than when I entered it.

I preach from time to time at the youth group associated with my church, but for the most part I don't need to be so blunt as I am with you.

shadowhive, on 30 January 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

That comparison doesn't hold much weight. For several reasons. First, if you dont make the team a trap door doesn't open beneath your feet dropping you into a rancor pit. Failure does not mean instant death and you always have the chance to try again. Second, you can be naturally gifted (chosen) or you can train really hard and get in the same position. And third everyone else isn't there just for the benefit of raising you up.

Perhaps that's analysing it a bit too much.

It was an analogy, I thought that was obvious.  My point was that those who strive for something cannot appreciate it if they do not have an idea of what it means to fail.

shadowhive, on 30 January 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

Basically what youre saying is god created everyone else so the chosen can see how superior and how better they are than everyone else by comparison. Lovely.

Not the words I would use.  It's not a matter of "better" and "superior", we're all sinners and equally guilty.  What it does show is the "riches of gods glory", the mercy and the greatness of God.  It's about God, not about us.

Edited by Paranoid Android, 30 January 2013 - 05:07 PM.

[Liquid Gardens]

Paranoid Android, on 30 January 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

  the problem of evil is predicated on the assumption that if God exists he desires that its creation spend life here on earth as happy and content as can be.  That is an assumption that must be challenged, and cannot be verified by those who claim the problem exists.

I disagree with that although you may just be being hyperbolic, that is not what the problem of evil is at all predicated on: "its creation spending life here on earth as happy and content as can be".  The assumption that must be challenged, given that natural evil/suffering-that-has-no-relation-to-the-expression-of-anyone's-free-will-choices exists, is that God is good (and/or that he exists at all).  I have trouble thinking of any definition of 'good' that justifies the suffering that some people and pretty much all non-human animals have to go through.  There really is not much arguing in my view that if God would not have created animal species who can only survive by killing and consuming other animals, it would have been an improvement for all values of 'good' that we humans understand.  If this world was created by Satan I don't think anyone would have trouble calling out this natural evil suffering as indeed evil, and not just because of who created it.

[shadowhive]

Paranoid Android, on 30 January 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

Exactly.  And my point was that not everyone thinks an eternal life with God is good.  If you don't like the "key words" I presented, then take yourself as an example - would you be happy to be forced to spend eternity with a God whom you (later in this post) admit you DO NOT want to follow?

No, I don't want to spend even five seconds with your god let alone eternity.

BUT that doesnt mean I don't want an afterlife and it certainly doesn't mean I want my soul destroyed.

I actually do believe in an afterlife, a 'heaven', but that afterlife doesn't involve spending an eternity with god. My idea of heaven involves doing things I like, being reunited with lost loved ones and the like. Which is why the christian options of a: eternity with god or b: destruction both sound completely abhorrent.

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I preach from time to time at the youth group associated with my church, but for the most part I don't need to be so blunt as I am with you.

You dont need to be, they're already hooked. Poor things.

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It was an analogy, I thought that was obvious.  My point was that those who strive for something cannot appreciate it if they do not have an idea of what it means to fail.

Yes it was obvious. However when failure=death, how exactly is anyone supposed to appreciate it?

However, as you stated yourself earlier, the chosen don't have to work for anything do they? They're chosen. And the ones not chosen, regardless of how hard they work or how much they strive for it, never will.

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Not the words I would use.  It's not a matter of "better" and "superior", we're all sinners and equally guilty.  What it does show is the "riches of gods glory", the mercy and the greatness of God.  It's about God, not about us.

Of course they're not the words you'd use. Nonetheless, they are accurate. It's all about (as stated above) showing how much better it is for the chosen and the expense of those that are not.

Lets take you and me. You're chosen, I'm not. No matter what I do with my life I could not be seen as good in gods eyes as you are. By contrast no matter how much bad you do could bring you down to my level. For example, I could find the cure for cancer and you could go on a killing spree and you'd still be 'better' than I am by virtue of being chosen.

[HavocWing]

Paranoid Android, on 30 January 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

It's about God, not about us.

So "god" is a narcissist?

[Paranoid Android]

shadowhive, on 30 January 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

No, I don't want to spend even five seconds with your god let alone eternity.

BUT that doesnt mean I don't want an afterlife and it certainly doesn't mean I want my soul destroyed.

I actually do believe in an afterlife, a 'heaven', but that afterlife doesn't involve spending an eternity with god. My idea of heaven involves doing things I like, being reunited with lost loved ones and the like. Which is why the christian options of a: eternity with god or b: destruction both sound completely abhorrent.

And how does this point invalidate mine?

shadowhive, on 30 January 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

You dont need to be, they're already hooked. Poor things.

And where in my comments did you assume all those who attend this youth group are Christian...

shadowhive, on 30 January 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

Yes it was obvious. However when failure=death, how exactly is anyone supposed to appreciate it?

However, as you stated yourself earlier, the chosen don't have to work for anything do they? They're chosen. And the ones not chosen, regardless of how hard they work or how much they strive for it, never will.

But how do the chosen know they are chosen?  And how do those who feel they are not chosen determine that they definitely not chosen?

You did not answer this in your response.

shadowhive, on 30 January 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

Of course they're not the words you'd use. Nonetheless, they are accurate. ..

No they are not.  "superior" and "better" implies that one group is better than another.  I know we disagree on pretty much everything, but please give me the courtesy of at least allowing me to believe that those who believe are just as worthy as those who do not.

shadowhive, on 30 January 2013 - 05:21 PM, said:

It's all about (as stated above) showing how much better it is for the chosen and the expense of those that are not.

Lets take you and me. You're chosen, I'm not. No matter what I do with my life I could not be seen as good in gods eyes as you are. By contrast no matter how much bad you do could bring you down to my level. For example, I could find the cure for cancer and you could go on a killing spree and you'd still be 'better' than I am by virtue of being chosen.

How do you know you're not chosen?

And I argue against your premise.  I believe I am chosen, but if I continue to do bad I may not actually be as chosen as I think.  If I went on a killing spree my actions may indeed condemn me to the group to which Jesus points at and says "away from me, evildoer, I never knew you".

Being saved is not a coverall for doing wrong in the name of God.  After a couple of years of discussion between us and you still do not realise this, I thought I was more thorough (either that or you seem to only focus on what you perceive as the negative).

[Paranoid Android]

HavocWing, on 30 January 2013 - 05:39 PM, said:

So "god" is a narcissist?

He is the Creator of all things.  He deserves the credit for that.  He is not necessarily "in love with himself", but he does demand that those who owe their very existence to him to acknowledge that.

[shadowhive]

Paranoid Android, on 30 January 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

And how does this point invalidate mine?

Depends what the point is.

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And where in my comments did you assume all those who attend this youth group are Christian...

How about the words 'associated with my church'.

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But how do the chosen know they are chosen?  And how do those who feel they are not chosen determine that they definitely not chosen?

You did not answer this in your response.

You tell me. After all, you're one of the priveledged chosen aren't you? I'm simply one of the lesser humans put there to show how special you are.

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No they are not.  "superior" and "better" implies that one group is better than another.  I know we disagree on pretty much everything, but please give me the courtesy of at least allowing me to believe that those who believe are just as worthy as those who do not.

One group is chosen. One group is not. The chosen get an afterlife, the not chosen get exterminated and are only around to show the chosen how good they are. Now that, to me, speaks that the chosen is,by default, superior and better than the not chosen.

Why should I give you that courtesy?

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How do you know you're not chosen?

I have not heard the 'call' of god. I've not sacrificed or shed my humanity and pledged my allegiance to a diety that's content with making others suffer and I never will. I'd no sooner submit to your god than any other kind of dictator.

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And I argue against your premise.  I believe I am chosen, but if I continue to do bad I may not actually be as chosen as I think.  If I went on a killing spree my actions may indeed condemn me to the group to which Jesus points at and says "away from me, evildoer, I never knew you".

Being saved is not a coverall for doing wrong in the name of God.  After a couple of years of discussion between us and you still do not realise this, I thought I was more thorough (either that or you seem to only focus on what you perceive as the negative).

Do you know something PA? I hear that a sort of talk a lot from people. And you know what? It seems to be a lie. If I had a penny for every time in the years of discussion a christian (or christian leaders) have done or signed off on something that harms others because 'god says so' I'd have a least a couple of thousand pounds by now, an that's just the ones Id have heard of. The point is rendered asolutely meaningless when christians can and still do evil and when even people like you will stand by and shrug it off because it's biblical and therefore magically allowable.

If jesus really says away from me' to all those chosen that do evil, the actually numbers of chosen would be cut dramatically. Because christians seem to have a degree of evil baked right in. Humanity means absolutely nothing to them, all that matters is what the bible says.

Being saved sure seems to be a coverall for doing wrong in the name of god in the physical world. But I guess that doesnt really matter too much does it? What''s the suffering of the non-chosen matter anyway?

However, my premise still stands on a key point. A person that is not chosen can't do enough to get into your gods good graces. A person could cure every disease, bring about world peace and end world hunger but if they're not chosen it means nothing in your god's eyes.

Edited by shadowhive, 30 January 2013 - 06:49 PM.

[HavocWing]

Paranoid Android, on 30 January 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

He is the Creator of all things.  He deserves the credit for that.  He is not necessarily "in love with himself", but he does demand that those who owe their very existence to him to acknowledge that.

There is absolutely no proof that any god created this world.

[redhen]

Paranoid Android, on 30 January 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

First, the concept of "free will" is up for debate.

Philosophically, yes. Theologically speaking, I think free will is a requirement.

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Second, the concept of "natural evil" is actually quite succinctly explained by the same reasoning I posited earlier - what if the purpose for mankind on this earth is not happiness?  the problem of evil is predicated on the assumption that if God exists he desires that its creation spend life here on earth as happy and content as can be.  That is an assumption that must be challenged, and cannot be verified by those who claim the problem exists.

Happiness and contentment is not the opposite of natural evil. Natural evil is denoted as unnecessary pain, suffering and death. This has been around a lot longer than humans, which just exacerbates the problem.

[Paranoid Android]

shadowhive, on 30 January 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

Depends what the point is.

It's already been made - not everyone wants an eternal life in heaven.

shadowhive, on 30 January 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

How about the words 'associated with my church'.

So only brainwashed Christians attend church.... right, so Christians are unable to invite their non-Christian friends to attend... I'll take that into consideration, though if that truly is your belief then I pity you.

shadowhive, on 30 January 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

You tell me. After all, you're one of the priveledged chosen aren't you? I'm simply one of the lesser humans put there to show how special you are.

1- While I believe I am among the chosen, what happens between now and death may change, and I may not be among the chosen, so your point is invalid.

2- I will not rise to the bait you are laying about the "lesser humans".  I have not used those terms, and it is deceitful to use such a term to characterise what I clearly do not believe.

shadowhive, on 30 January 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

One group is chosen. One group is not. The chosen get an afterlife, the not chosen get exterminated and are only around to show the chosen how good they are. Now that, to me, speaks that the chosen is,by default, superior and better than the not chosen.

Why should I give you that courtesy?

Everyone are equal, regardless of where we may end up.

shadowhive, on 30 January 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

I have not heard the 'call' of god. I've not sacrificed or shed my humanity and pledged my allegiance to a diety that's content with making others suffer and I never will. I'd no sooner submit to your god than any other kind of dictator.

1- Not YET.

2- Assuming you never do, your words betray you and I do not expect you to request or desire an eternity with the God I believe in.  Therefore, why do you demand that my belief on the afterlife be exactly the same as yours?

shadowhive, on 30 January 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

Do you know something PA? I hear that a sort of talk a lot from people. And you know what? It seems to be a lie. If I had a penny for every time in the years of discussion a christian (or christian leaders) have done or signed off on something that harms others because 'god says so' I'd have a least a couple of thousand pounds by now, an that's just the ones Id have heard of. The point is rendered asolutely meaningless when christians can and still do evil and when even people like you will stand by and shrug it off because it's biblical and therefore magically allowable.

If jesus really says away from me' to all those chosen that do evil, the actually numbers of chosen would be cut dramatically. Because christians seem to have a degree of evil baked right in. Humanity means absolutely nothing to them, all that matters is what the bible says.

Being saved sure seems to be a coverall for doing wrong in the name of god in the physical world. But I guess that doesnt really matter too much does it? What''s the suffering of the non-chosen matter anyway?

However, my premise still stands on a key point. A person that is not chosen can't do enough to get into your gods good graces. A person could cure every disease, bring about world peace and end world hunger but if they're not chosen it means nothing in your god's eyes.

Blah blah blah blah.....

And yes, I'm being dismissive.  I've had enough discussions with you in the past to know that you understand me better than that.  But still you choose to go there, so I'll be just as childish as you and go "blah blah blah"....

Edited by Paranoid Android, 30 January 2013 - 07:05 PM.

[Beckys_Mom]

Paranoid Android, on 30 January 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

However, those who are not called were created for the purpose of not being called, so it's not an unfair discrimination.

It is unfair IF he lays out a commandment telling everyone to follow him and only him.... How does one expect others to do that IF they never get called?   Does this mean those who were never called to follow him, will never make it to heaven?  IF so why would he ever do that to anyone, as they are not at fault, he was in control ?  Why is it fair for the rest to spend eternity in darkness?   ........Why make such a commandment for others to read and follow ? The bible commandments do not say, this is only aimed at a selected bunch...!

  

Paranoid Android, on 30 January 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

To not do so implies that the will of man can overthrow the will of God.

  

So those who were followers and later in life turned away from following god  ( also known as atheists, and we know that many atheists were once followers ) God would have known how that went and why it did, before they ever did...  God also knows those who were raised as atheists, and he knows exactly why...He knows people are not at fault So as he knows all of it before anyone else, why would he create them to do this?
If there really is a heaven  and I believe so, then why would a god who classes himself as all loving  ( which means all and not the selected bunch  he calls on )  everyone is equal in his eyes, create those knowing he will never call on them... For eternity they are doomed, while those who were called upon, are not ..No logic involved with that sounds cruel to create people for a full purpose not to be called, which means not to follow him, which means their lives had no purpose.. Pointless creations, for no real reason..   Why bother with a judgement on to these people ? He knew it all beforehand

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 30 January 2013 - 07:10 PM.

[Paranoid Android]

HavocWing, on 30 January 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

There is absolutely no proof that any god created this world.

I never said there was.... Your point?