58 replies to this topic

[vedam]

True God is all merciful but not when you are alive on this earth. You are bound by the so-called scientific laws that govern this universe. When a tiger is pouncing on a goat God knows what pain the goat is going to suffer. At the same time the tiger's life is at stake. So god does not interfere. If driving your car brakes fail despite your pleas god will not interfere. There is something that we do not know about god at all.

[JGirl]

Ligia Cabus, on 31 October 2012 - 08:08 PM, said:

Is good remember that be a christian don't mean to belong to a Church. Church isn't synonymous of religion. Religion is a technique, a science. Church is an instituition that intends teach and conduce the practice of this technique and science. This isn't means that one doctrine, a line of thinking, the technique of "religare" (origin of the word religion) doesn't work or is wrong.

i agree that church is not religion. i also agree that religion is a technique (or more accurately a demonstration of one's belief) but you totally lose me on the idea that it is a science.
i would argue that it is not even close to being considered a science. religion is faith based, science is fact based. that in itself demonstrates my point.

[JGirl]

Amalthe, on 05 November 2012 - 07:53 AM, said:

Yes, the rule about telling only the truth or standing behind His words is one example. God does not lie in any circumstances. However I believe you refer to some instances in Old Testament where it is written that God send lying spirit to do this or that. It doesn't mean God lied, because in those times Lucifer was rightful member of heavenly host and had a right to participate in actions regarding humans, so he was allowed to do such things, because if God wouldn't allow such actions would prove Lucifer claim that He is tyrant. You can easily check the book of Job where it is in detail described, how Lucifer accused Job why he obeys God, and where God allowed Lucifer to hurt Job.

how incredibly convenient.
so, as long as you have a good reason, as long as things work out for the better, and as long as one does not do the actual lying, it's perfectly fine

[glorybebe]

Well, if you sin and you go to Hell....then I am going to Hell.  If God was to determine commandments and punishment for not following them, why has this all changed?  Once again religion has changed his words to gain more believers.  And Hell is another pagan belief that was stolen  The Norse goddess, Hel, looked after the souls that were not allowed to stay in Valhalla.

[Amalthe]

Rlyeh, on 05 November 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

Do you understand what an analogy is?
If God is innocent of lying because instead he sent lying spirits, then by that logic Charles Manson is innocent of murder because he sent others to do it.

JGirl, on 05 November 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

how incredibly convenient.
so, as long as you have a good reason, as long as things work out for the better, and as long as one does not do the actual lying, it's perfectly fine

I'm sorry, but I have trouble understanding analogies if I don't get enough words to explain them.  However in this case I understood and I see your point and I think you're right. There is no logical way that God is telling nothing but the truth and at the same time orders someone to lie. However, do you agree that God could allow someone to do the lying but not for Him, similar to what He allowed to happen with Job, and not come in contradiction with His truthfull character?

Anyway, there is something strange about that passage because in one moment the Prophet was talking with King, and in next one Prophet is witnessing about meeting in heaven. Please allow me some time to look into it and see what was the case.

Edited by Amalthe, 06 November 2012 - 09:04 AM.

[Amalthe]

glorybebe, on 05 November 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

Well, if you sin and you go to Hell....then I am going to Hell.  If God was to determine commandments and punishment for not following them, why has this all changed?  Once again religion has changed his words to gain more believers.  And Hell is another pagan belief that was stolen  The Norse goddess, Hel, looked after the souls that were not allowed to stay in Valhalla.

I don't think this is how it works. We all do sin, christians, pagans, Hebrews, atheists alike. We break commandments and i don't think anything has changed, the Law is the same now as 3000 years before. It is that by God's mercy we are saved, not by our actions. And it is interesting to see same pattern in Nordic religion, but I just proves that all religions have same origin.

[Mnemonix]

I regret asking this question.

I'll never get a straight answer.

Thanks for the efforts anyway.

Edited by Mnemonix, 06 November 2012 - 09:47 AM.

[Jinxdom]

OK God's mercy is based on three things. Free-will, Choice and consent. Anything that restricts these things is basically a sin. Something things are inevitable you have to do them anyway.
When you push somebody to only one option, against their consent, of your own free-will what you are doing is punishing them. Punishment is simply limited the person(the something) to only one option. This is where eye for an eye comes from. eye for an eye, I for an I, 1 for 1. It literally means punishment for punishment. You murder somebody you get executed or you get in prison whatever was decided by consent of the people.
Death in itself cannot be a punishment alone because we all have to face it. It's basically neutral.

This is why when God in the bible told Abraham to sacrifice his son he intervened and gave him a goat to choose instead.
This is why God destroyed the Tower of Babel. Only one choice in language.
This is why God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and not Lot when he offered up his daughters. (Lot gave the men more then one option of his own consent, the lynch mob wanted to force only one choice on to the Angels against their will)

Since this is a pita to explain and you pretty much have to talk like Jesus(in contradictions) to explain it the actual message gets lost.

Basically the only unforgivable sin is forcing somebody to only one option against their free will when it is of your own free-will. Fulfilling the role of executioner your basically forced in to the position of kill somebody so your off the hook.
Hunting somebody down you find in the woods and you cut them to bits against their will, guess what punishment time.
It's the difference between soldiers fighting(A war is basically an agreement to conflict)

When you actually look at that and realize that then you can actually see that God isn't a serial killing psychopath, but the biggest advocate for free-will. It just doesn't look that way when people are misapplying the commandments.

You can basically change the word God Free-will with anything with the same properties that involve life and follow it you won't go get punished. Atheists if you believe in freedom guess what your following God's word by accident guess what you will be saved.
(You can fill the word Atheists and freedom with any combo of words that involve some form of ability to change and consent. Like People and Love, America and Liberty, Democracy and choice, Evolution and change, forces and motion. Same principle under different names)

This is also why he makes the big stink about following false idols. You try to enforce God's will on somebody it's no longer God's will but your will. Following your will changes God to your god becoming a false idol becoming what you feared the most (Go go gadget anti-christ)

This is a base concept found in every religion. It's called the Golden Rule.

If you don't understand it or feel the need to try to make me look a fool toss a pm.

[Harsh86_Patel]

A very pertinent topic.

I would like to add here that God is not always Abrahamic.
Also people here might lke to look at the Hindu philosophy of 'Karma' as opposed to heaven/hell philosophy to get better insights.

http://hinduism.abou...ics/a/karma.htm

Karma does not define Good and Bad but says that Good leads to Good and Bad leads to Bad.Though i am being simplistic,the philosophy has a lot of merit and helps to remove many negative qualities attributed to God by Theosupremacist religions especially the Abrahamic religions.

[Amalthe]

Harsh86_Patel, on 06 November 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

A very pertinent topic.

I would like to add here that God is not always Abrahamic.
Also people here might lke to look at the Hindu philosophy of 'Karma' as opposed to heaven/hell philosophy to get better insights.

http://hinduism.abou...ics/a/karma.htm

Karma does not define Good and Bad but says that Good leads to Good and Bad leads to Bad.Though i am being simplistic,the philosophy has a lot of merit and helps to remove many negative qualities attributed to God by Theosupremacist religions especially the Abrahamic religions.

Karma theory does help to deal with existence of Evil, but problem with Karma is that it removes individual responsibility of humans. Like, this bad thing happened to me, but it's not my fault, it's Karma. It basically equals victim and wrongdoer, for they both have the same responsibility for evil deed that happens. And there is no mercy in Hinduism, only adherence to the Karmic Law might help you progress.

[glorybebe]

Amalthe, on 06 November 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

I don't think this is how it works. We all do sin, christians, pagans, Hebrews, atheists alike. We break commandments and i don't think anything has changed, the Law is the same now as 3000 years before. It is that by God's mercy we are saved, not by our actions. And it is interesting to see same pattern in Nordic religion, but I just proves that all religions have same origin.

Well, according to the Old Testament, yes, you sin you go to Hell.  When people were afraid of God, they seemed to stick to his commandments better.  Now, no matter what you do, God will forgive you (according to evangelists).  So, what is the use listening to God until you are on your death bed, repent and be forgiven?

[Amalthe]

glorybebe, on 06 November 2012 - 04:30 PM, said:

Well, according to the Old Testament, yes, you sin you go to Hell.  When people were afraid of God, they seemed to stick to his commandments better.  Now, no matter what you do, God will forgive you (according to evangelists).  So, what is the use listening to God until you are on your death bed, repent and be forgiven?

You made excellent point. By logical thinking, you're right, but there is a catch in the forgiveness of God. Yes, it is true that God can forgive everything, but only if you repent from your actions, that is if you trully are sorry and come to peace with God. However, if a being refuses to do that inspite of overwhelming evidence presented, that sin cannot be pardoned.
It is written in Mark 3:28 "Truly I tell you, people will be forgiven all their sins and all the blasphemies they utter. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin. He said this because they [the Pharisees] were saying, ‘He has an evil spirit’."

That means that although Parisees knew in heart that miracles Jesus performed were only posible with the help of God, they still refused to acknowledge that. It means that their hearts were turned to stone, and that there is nothing more God can do in order to turn them from their decisions, so such people cannot be saved.

[The_Spirit_of_Truth]

Mnemonix, on 12 September 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

If God's mercy was truly unlimited, no one would go to Hell.

This is valid for the souls of normal people which become victims when they found themselves to be in the Hell.

But ooops, wait... If it deals with the souls of H*ll**h people which originate from the Hell, they need to return to there in order to be well off.

Mnemonix, on 12 September 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

I don't understand how a loving, merciful, all-forgiving God would cause someone to suffer in unimaginable pain for all eternity. This isn't love or mercy, and seemingly not unlimited love and mercy.

Eternal punishment is unacceptable. More merciful is a quick destruction which value is compared to zero (who does not exist he experiences nothing = 0).

Mnemonix, on 12 September 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

I, as a limited human, wouldn't want even my worst enemy to suffer for all eternity. I can't comprehend that. So why would a God of unlimited love and mercy want that? That's just an example.

He balances everything by its opposite, the suffering of ones by happiness of others. It is justify and unjust at the same time as well as the justice itself: there is absolute one and none at the same time.

Mnemonix, on 12 September 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

God is almighty, so I'm sure He can be creative and think of an alternative. Just for example, if someone was evil, God could change that person.

If he did not need the person to be evil, the person would not be evil.

Mnemonix, on 12 September 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

I don't mean any offense to God, or anyone. This is just my personal opinion, and of course tons of people out there want to stone me to death for saying this.

Nope.

Mnemonix, on 12 September 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

To me, something unlimited has to be far greater than even the largest number possible, able to be comprehended by humans. And that's how much love, mercy and forgiveness God should have.

This "unlimited things" are explained in "Tajemstvi nekonecneho cisla" (= the secret of infinite number) and "Absolutni a relativni hodnoty cisel" (= absolute and relative values of numbers). But I do not have the text in English language.

Mnemonix, on 12 September 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

So come to me with some love, if you want to correct me on anything.

I like your post.

[Muzzybluezzy]

Mnemonix, on 12 September 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

God's mercy

*Sigh*

God has got eternity and he created this finite and perishable world that we have to improve our souls, through our planetary lifes.

I think self significance of expression of God's mercy emphasises helping people by God reaching perfect human being, in their incarnations.

for instance; Kyrie Eleison means  "Lord, have mercy”
as an open expression:
"God, have mercy on me, a sinner"
(here expression of "sinner" means unlike God, faulty, poor. I mean that the Poor son (Human) wants to help from the Rich Father (God) to be like his Father)
I hope it's clear.