109 replies to this topic

[_Only]

Viral, on 13 June 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

Have you heard of my invisible dinosaur friend? You can't see him or touch him or, well, prove in any scientific way that he exists but you can't prove he doesn't exist. Using your logic you can argue for absolutely anything that you want to prove is real.

Well, there are many more factors than simply a single passing claim of something to inch it more toward validity. Your invisible dinosaur came from your imagination in a second or two. The idea of ghosts has been brought up and re-brought up all over the world, all throughout recorded history. While that is far from solid, to equate the two scenarios (invisi-saur vs. ghosts) is silly.

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It's just wrong to say the absence of evidence proves the nonexistence of ghosts.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with that statement. You not being able to prove something doesn't exist doesn't give it any further validity, but I doubt that's what he was implying.

edit: forgot to put in the bolded words

Edited by _Only, 13 June 2012 - 08:25 PM.

[Ecto76]

Viral, on 13 June 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

Have you heard of my invisible dinosaur friend? You can't see him or touch him or, well, prove in any scientific way that he exists but you can't prove he doesn't exist. Using your logic you can argue for absolutely anything that you want to prove is real.



Except that this isn't some radical brand-new way of thinking at all, it's just an old myth that people still believe. This isn't like the world being round or perhaps the Earth not being the center of the Universe, they're silly little stories we were told as children. Oh, and I have seen 'Ghosts' or things I can't explain however, I've also read up on the Psychology behind such events and I believe that the power of the human mind is much more sound, reasonable and likely than Ghosts.



Nice try. However there aren't many credible scientists that even believe in Ghosts, yet alone 'investigate' them. Everything to do with Ghosts is opinion, if there were teams of scientists working on this and getting their work peer-reviewed then perhaps there would be people with more than opinion to offer. Do you not stop to think there's a reason most Scientists don't study this? Well, aside from the fact most of them know Ghosts don't exist, it's not important enough to study anyway, it's just silly.

Again, all opinion... pure opinion. That was my whole point.

[_Only]

Clyde the Glyde, on 13 June 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

Yes. Unless everything on Ghosthunters has been faked, they have had at times some very interesting EVPs.  I remember an older one where a child voice said " They don't want us "  and then the female homeowner bursted out in tears crying.  Sounded pretty credible and authentic to me.

Clyde the Glyde, on 13 June 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

Yes. Unless everything on Ghosthunters has been faked, they have had at times some very interesting EVPs.  I remember an older one where a child voice said " They don't want us "  and then the female homeowner bursted out in tears crying.  Sounded pretty credible and authentic to me.

The thing is, I would go as far as to say just about every "EVP" that they record and playback is either beforehand, simultaneously, or right afterwards, told to the viewers/listeners what it is supposed to say. "evbin wel"  (or a similar unintelligible sound) is told by the team as to say "I'm in Hell", and when we listen to it again (as they always do right after), we then hear "I'm in Hell" because they suggested it to us.

It's easy to twist things around to make them seem interesting and get a reaction out of people.

[scowl]

fran123, on 13 June 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

You cannot go and look for ghosts by simply spending a night in an alleged haunted place and expect things to happen and record evidence.

These shows are getting great results! Fact or Faked can't seem to do a single overnight investigation without something crazy happening.

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The only plausible way I feel decent evidence could be found is to have recording instruments, visual and audio, left in a sealed room/building over a matter of weeks or months, without human contact. Yes,  every day they would have to be checked and batteries replaced etc,

So, uh, what were you saying about "without human contact"? And why do you think only humans can cause false-paranormal results? Animals like owls and bats can be pretty scary.

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but then if something WAS seen or heard on the recordings without any human contamination, there could be a possibility that something paranormal had taken place and it could be investigated further.

And how would they be investigated further? If a blurry transparent blob passes through the frame in a video recording once in a month-long investigation, what is the next step in a legitimate investigation?

[Viral]

Ecto76, on 13 June 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

Again, all opinion... pure opinion. That was my whole point.

My point was that some people here may actually have a better opinion than a scientist. Having a PHD in Chemistry doesn't mean you automatically know everything about Ghosts. I'd say this is more of a Psychology.

[Sakari]

Ecto76, on 13 June 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

Honestly... IMO there is a difference between a "ghost hunter", "ghost chaser" and "paranormal investigator". A ghost hunter & ghost chaser is someone who is looking for experiences with a ghost. Hence the term "hunt". A paranormal investigator "investigates", "studies" and when conducting the investigation uses "scientific methods" as well as look for "logical explanations" first before claiming anything to be paranormal.

A paranormal investigator will go into an investigation, figure out and find an explanation to why a person may be experiencing their claims of activity. Such as EMF... why are they feeling the way they feel? Could it be due to a high emf field? Yes, some people are extremely sensitive to high emf causing them to get sick. Why are objects moving by themselves? Investigators will try and debunk it. Is the floor level? Is the ground effected by various vibration? Then with the clients permission, you can offer them a medical examination. Once this study is  complete, then and only then can you start debating if you cannot find an explanation of things can you throw in the possibility of it being paranormal. Is this scientific? Not by any means, but is being very objective. I feel we need more studies with these methods instead of people going into a place that is reported to be one of the most notorious hauntings and come out running and having a dude run moment. Not very professional.

It should also be about learning more about it. How can you find the answers to all things paranormal? I'm starting to hate the word paranormal. I think everyone should just use the term unexplained because for all we know there could be many natural unexplained phenomena that we are unaware of or have not discovered yet. The dictionary to the field should be revamped and re-thought. The terminology is often misidentified etc;

When I refer to "experts" there are no "experts" on these UM Forums. Unless you have a PHD or a bonified scientists who works in a science laboratory everyday, all you can do is offer your opinion and everyone who replies to these topics should take your opinion for what its worth.

Opinion...............nothing more, nothing less!

For now, it should just remain a global phenomena. What I like to say in my presentations is this................

"Even though for decades, millions of people have reported and have had encounters with ghosts across the world. Because scientists do not accept it as a main stream science, all Paranormal Investigators can do is offer our best opinion".

Ecto, I believe it was you asking for EMF information, and I thought I gave some.....It is the bold above that hits me.Where did you get that information?


Also, a " expert " does not have to have a degree, just be very knowledgeable in that field...I am a " expert " on the process of mineral seporation for example.I am a plant operator at a mineral seperating plant....." experience ".


Anyway, back to the EMF thing....again, please post something to that shows EMF's can cause what you heard about.....

This is what I had posted before, I urge anyone wanting to learn about EMF's to start here....

Ok, I am tired of people learning about EMF's from paranormal teams, and TAPS.....

The " EMF's can make you sick, hallucinate, etc. ".........

Please take the time to read these links.....This is factual information on EMF's, what they are, why they are here, etc,etc,etc.........People used to think they caused cancer.

Anyway, talk to electricians about EMF's, not ghost hunters.......We are all exposed to it in various amounts 24/7.

Here is the information, please read it so that next time you read claims, and reports, you will have knowledge about them, and will not be fooled.The National Institue of Environmental Health Sciences is your source, and is also the place who studies things that can effect our health.....I believe their studies, and research, and explanations should be sufficient, don't you?







General Information

• Assessment of Health Effects from Exposure to Power-Line Frequency Electric and Magnetic Fields (3MB)
  
• EMF in the Workplace   - A fact sheet from the National Institute of Occupational  Safety and Health (NIOSH) explaining the hazards of exposure to  electromagnetic fields in the work environment.
  
• Environmental Health Perspectives, Environews by Topic: EMFs
  
• Health Effects from Exposure to Power-Line Frequency Electric and Magnetic Fields (751KB)
  
• Research Links - Scientific Resources - Environmental Health - Electromagnetic Fields
  
• Results of EMF Research - EMF Questions & Answers Booklet (11MB)
  
• Talking Glossary of Genetic Terms: Cancer
  
• Talking Glossary of Genetic Terms: Mutagen
  
• The International EMF Project   - Established by the World Health Organization (WHO) in 1996 to  assess the scientific evidence of possible health effects of EMF in the  frequency range from 0 to 300 GHz, this website is an excellent source  of information on EMF.
  
• World Health Organization, Information Resources

[Ecto76]

Well... I have scrolled through some of the information Sakari. People who are exposed to high EMF is a potential health hazard according to all of these articles or at least most of them. Most of them link to cancer and Alzheimer. Being exposed to an open electrical box on a daily basis, bad wiring, exposed wires etc; can effect your health. So then what is wrong with what I posted again? Clarify that for me?

[Sakari]

Ecto76, on 14 June 2012 - 03:04 AM, said:

Well... I have scrolled through some of the information Sakari. People who are exposed to high EMF is a potential health hazard according to all of these articles or at least most of them. Most of them link to cancer and Alzheimer. Being exposed to an open electrical box on a daily basis, bad wiring, exposed wires etc; can effect your health. So then what is wrong with what I posted again? Clarify that for me?

I did not say you were wrong, I asked where you got that information....

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find an explanation to why a person may be experiencing their claims of activity. Such as EMF

Like that above....


As for the health aspect, as far as I can find, there is no finding to any of the claims I hear from the TV shows, and investigators on the internet...

The link to cancer and alzheimers, I believe it only says " claims ", but no facts....I have not read every single word, yet.

I do know from the links and information I posted, the claims we all ways here about " EMF's " is 100% , as you say, " opinion "....and completley without evidence, or facts.

The fact is ( as the links will show ) we are all around EMF's all the time.....


I just want to know where you have read the information on EMF's that you stated, not being rude, nor being sarcastic.I think you know me enough to know, I like to " look into things " and really find the facts.I think ( opinion ) you may have been listening to people in the " paranormal " field for your information, and not people in the electrical world, and the governing bodies that have to make laws, and standards regarding working and living around these very things.

Just asking is all.

Edited by Sakari, 14 June 2012 - 03:59 AM.

[Ecto76]

Here are some good articles regarding health risks with EMF and that people are indeed sensitive to high EMF

http://paranormaland...09/01/emfs.html

http://emfsafetynetwork.org/?p=4079

http://www.powerwatc...nce/studies.asp

I have been following power-watch since I entered the field.

Just to clarify even more, I do not base my methods off of TV shows. I have been investigating way before Ghost Hunters debut'ed on TV. I have established my own methods from my own experiences. Over time, we simply learn from our own mistakes, learn the pro's and con's etc; If people want my real opinion about Ghost Hunters, I think they are Charlatan's.

The next thing I would like to clarify is my intentions. I do not come here and claim to be a know it all. I am no expert and there is no expert when it comes to the paranormal field. I come here to learn and improve my knowledge as well as help those who want to learn. I am not here to turn any skeptic into a believer in any way shape or form. I'm one of the few who wish there were less "Charlatan's" and those who want to make money off of it. I don't knock anyone for trying to be successful. Long as its done with good intentions.

I do it to help my clients. I do it because I have much passion for what I do and love what I do.

[scowl]

Sakari, on 14 June 2012 - 03:58 AM, said:

As for the health aspect, as far as I can find, there is no finding to any of the claims I hear from the TV shows, and investigators on the internet...

The link to cancer and alzheimers, I believe it only says " claims ", but no facts....I have not read every single word, yet.

This was a big deal back in the 90's. People were claiming that leaky power lines were responsible for their cancers and other health problems. A Swedish study supported this theory. People were scared. Home values next to power stations dropped.

Scientists found many flaws with both the study and the methods people used to support their claims. The main problem they found is a common statistical mistake called The Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy. At first glace there did seem to be "cancer clusters" around areas with high tension power lines and substations. However there were also "cancer clusters" in places where there were no power lines. In other places around power lines and substations, the cancer rate was lower than average as if they were somehow making people healthier.

Once they got enough samples they proved that the cancer rate was no higher anywhere around power lines and substations. You will always have clusters of positive and negative data in statistics and they must be given equal value for the study to be correct.

This is supported by the nature of EMF. It drops off very quickly with distance. The wiring in your home will bathe you in greater levels of EMF than anything outside of your home. Your appliances like washers, driers and especially electric stoves will hit you with relatively powerful EMFs. The strongest EMF you'll ever get on a daily basis is an electric hairdryer. If EMFs were dangerous, that would be like pointing a gun at your brain.

The TSF mistake is common in investigations too. Sometimes they find EMFs. Sometimes they don't. When they do find them, they must be significant. If they don't find them, they disregard them.

[scowl]

Ecto76, on 14 June 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

Here are some good articles regarding health risks with EMF and that people are indeed sensitive to high EMF

http://paranormaland...09/01/emfs.html

http://emfsafetynetwork.org/?p=4079

http://www.powerwatc...nce/studies.asp

I have been following power-watch since I entered the field.

Here is a transcript of a PBS Frontline investigation which includes a study by two professors of physics at Yale who investigated the potential dangers of EMFs and found nothing:

http://www.pbs.org/w...ripts/1319.html

[Ecto76]

Nishimura Tet al, (March 2011) A 1-uT extremely low-frequency electromagnetic field vs. sham control for mild-to-moderate hypertension: a double-blind, randomized study, Hypertens Res. 2011 Mar;34(3):372-7. Epub 2011 Jan 20

"There was a significant difference between the ELF-EMF and sham groups with respect to change in SBP value between baseline and the end of the exposure regimen (P=0.02), but not with respect to change in DBP (P=0.21). There were no adverse events other than mild paresthesia of the hands of two subjects in the ELF-EMF group. Our results suggest that repeated exposure to an ELF-EMF has a BP-lowering effect on humans with mild-to-moderate hypertension."

Landgrebe Met al, (March 2008) Cognitive and neurobiological alterations in electromagnetic hypersensitive patients: results of a case-control study, Psychol Med. 2008 Mar 26;:1-11

"Discrimination ability was significantly reduced in EHS (only 40% of the EHS but 60% of the controls felt no sensation under sham stimulation during the complete series), whereas the perception thresholds for real magnetic pulses were comparable in both groups (median 21% versus 24% of maximum pulse intensity). Intra-cortical facilitation was decreased in younger and increased in older EHS. In addition, typical EMF-related cognitions (aspects of rumination, symptom intolerance, vulnerability and stabilizing self-esteem) specifically differentiated EHS from their controls. These results demonstrate significant cognitive and neurobiological alterations pointing to a higher genuine individual vulnerability of electromagnetic hypersensitive patients

Landgrebe Met al, (March 2007) Altered cortical excitability in subjectively electrosensitive patients: results of a pilot study, J Psychosom Res. 2007 Mar;62(3):283-8

"Electrosensitive patients showed reduced intracortical facilitation as compared to both control groups, while motor thresholds and intracortical inhibition were unaffected. This pilot study gives additional evidence that altered central nervous system function may account for symptom manifestation in subjectively electrosensitive patients as has been postulated for several chronic multisymptom illnesses sharing a similar clustering of symptoms"

Edited by Ecto76, 14 June 2012 - 04:19 PM.

[Ecto76]

scowl, on 14 June 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

Here is a transcript of a PBS Frontline investigation which includes a study by two professors of physics at Yale who investigated the potential dangers of EMFs and found nothing:

http://www.pbs.org/w...ripts/1319.html

My source is from a pretty reputable researcher and engineer in EMF


Alasdair Philips, Scientific Director

Alasdair was one of the founders of Powerwatch in the 1980s and has been actively engaged in radio and electronics for some 40 years and electromagnetic field and health sciences research for the last 20 years. He originally qualified in electronic engineering and designed the 'Powerwatch' instruments. He writes the technical parts of the books and represents Powerwatch on various offical committees, etc.

[Viral]

_Only, on 13 June 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

Well, there are many more factors than simply a single passing claim of something to inch it more toward validity. Your invisible dinosaur came from your imagination in a second or two. The idea of ghosts has been brought up and re-brought up all over the world, all throughout recorded history. While that is far from solid, to equate the two scenarios (invisi-saur vs. ghosts) is silly.

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There was absolutely nothing wrong with that statement. You not being able to prove something doesn't exist doesn't give it any further validity, but I doubt that's what he was implying.

edit: forgot to put in the bolded words

It's not actually as silly as you think, for starters they both don't exist and secondly they can both be explain psychologically. Childhood imaginary friends (even dinosaurs) and Ghosts are one's imagination. Though, I'm guessing you don't agree with such a statement? How else would one explain Ghosts only being seen in times of stress, upset or perhaps near sleep?

The argument "well you can't prove that it doesn't exist" is the last bastion of proof for something that doesn't exist.

[Ecto76]

Viral, on 14 June 2012 - 04:30 PM, said:

It's not actually as silly as you think, for starters they both don't exist and secondly they can both be explain psychologically. Childhood imaginary friends (even dinosaurs) and Ghosts are one's imagination. Though, I'm guessing you don't agree with such a statement? How else would one explain Ghosts only being seen in times of stress, upset or perhaps near sleep?

The argument "well you can't prove that it doesn't exist" is the last bastion of proof for something that doesn't exist.

I can easily turn around and say............ prove to me that ghosts do not exist? Based on what facts and scientific findings?

In my humbled opinion: I request and suggest that "skeptics" should stop generalizing ghosts that ghosts do not exist and try to focus more on the individual claims when people claim they have had a paranormal encounter. Every claim is different and everyone's experiences are different. I think it is bold of you to be so quick to argue it and just flatly come out and say something doesn't exist based on your own opinion?