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why has "God" done nothing in 2k years?


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#31    redhen

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 02:06 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 28 August 2013 - 01:04 AM, said:

I don't think its very fair of the Trinitarian God to not give everlasting life to everyone He has created, and instead to expect belief on such flimsy and mythical evidence.

I agree. I think something like huge lettering on the moon visible from earth, reading "Jesus lives" (in Greek of course) would be more convincing.


#32    Almagest

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 06:00 AM

View Postflbrnt, on 27 August 2013 - 08:25 PM, said:

Have you ever seen a newborn baby? Have you ever seen a sunrise? You need more "miracles" than those?

Ever seen a deformed baby? Or a disabled one? What could an unborn baby have done to deserve still birth? I think childbirth is proof that our genes produce errors that can have extremely negative effects. A biological function performing as intended is not a miracle.

What about the names Kepler, Copernicus, Galieo and Newton? Again the sunrise is the product of physical forces and isn't a miracle. The fact that it's beautiful to look at is purely coincidental. If we had evolved as nocturnal creatures we would probably find the sunset more beautiful. Personally I think a starry sky on a clear moonless night is more beautiful, but beauty doesn't imply a miraculous or divine cause. :)

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#33    redhen

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 01:14 PM

View PostAlmagest, on 28 August 2013 - 06:00 AM, said:

Ever seen a deformed baby? Or a disabled one? What could an unborn baby have done to deserve still birth?

The best example of this are harlequin babies. I'm not going to link to any sites, if you want to see them just throw that term into Google images.


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I think childbirth is proof that our genes produce errors that can have extremely negative effects. A biological function performing as intended is not a miracle.

Yes, unfortunately that's the price we pay for random mutations and evolution.


#34    scowl

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 05:32 PM

View Postspacecowboy342, on 28 August 2013 - 02:00 AM, said:

Definitely an interesting question. I don't know if it counts but Aaron (brother of Moses) turned his staff into a snake to show the Egyptians the power of God and when the Egyptian magicians duplicated his trick his snake ate all their snakes. And of course the ten plagues, but maybe that's not what you meant.

And I'm sure the Egyptian army noticed the parting of the Red Sea... for a few minutes anyway.


#35    scowl

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 05:58 PM

A few years ago I was walking down the street and noticed a guy looking up at the sky. I hoped he was seeing something interesting like a flying saucer but all I saw were clouds.

"Do you see it?" he asked me. "That's incredible!". I still didn't see it.

He pointed to a cloud whose top had been sheered off, most likely due to a temperature inversion that creates strong winds that melt the crystals in clouds. Sometimes they're so fast that they'll give clouds this "flat top" look for a while.

Anyway I tried to explain this to the fellow but he wouldn't listen to my sciency mumbo-jumbo. Instead he rambled on and on at me about God and whatnot.

"It's a miracle. We live in a world of miracles all around us. God presents them to us but we're just too blind to notice them!"

I thought it was sad that God would stoop to presenting miracles in cloud formations.


#36    Einsteinium

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 06:27 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 27 August 2013 - 03:42 AM, said:

In some ways God is a lot like Sasquatch or the Loch Ness Monster -- has numbers of devoted believers who jump on any straw to believe.

One big difference- there is more evidence for Sasquatch and the Loch Ness Monster ;)

Edited by Einsteinium, 28 August 2013 - 06:27 PM.


#37    Frank Merton

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 06:34 PM

View Postredhen, on 28 August 2013 - 02:06 AM, said:

I agree. I think something like huge lettering on the moon visible from earth, reading "Jesus lives" (in Greek of course) would be more convincing.
I sometimes wonder what I would do if one morning the Heavenly Host appeared in the sky, etc.  My philosophical reasons for  why no God worth His salt would stoop  to miracles is strong enough that I would figure "fraud," but  for  pragmatic reasons would probably play along.


#38    Gomar

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 10:22 PM

View Postredhen, on 28 August 2013 - 01:14 PM, said:

The best example of this are harlequin babies.

Ever see that Twilight Zone episode 'In the Eye of the Beholder'?
Ugly people are normal, and "normal" people are ugly, and are sent off to live on an island.

Imagine if 99% of all humans looked like harlequin babies.  Would someone like Marilyn Monroe be considered beautiful?
If aliens exist, would they consider humans ugly?


#39    Paranoid Android

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 08:57 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 27 August 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

I dunno; I suspect these are more like teachings than like the existence of some entity, so it depends on whether the teachings holds up to reason or no, not up to miracles and wonders and other myths.
Ok, I'll agree on terms of karma and the Noble Truths. But Nirvana is a place. Well, it's a state of existence (or rather non-existence). In any case it's comparable to belief in God (at least as similar as your comparison to sasquatch et al).


View PostFrank Merton, on 27 August 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:

Another thought comes to me -- your point is "tu quoque."  I realize that half the arguments we see on this board are one logical fallacy or another, but maybe it doesn't hurt to point them out.
To an extent, except I'm not using this to  discredit your premise. I'm simply saying that what's good for the goose, if you take my meaning.

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#40    Rlyeh

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 11:05 AM

View PostGomar, on 28 August 2013 - 10:22 PM, said:

Ever see that Twilight Zone episode 'In the Eye of the Beholder'?
Ugly people are normal, and "normal" people are ugly, and are sent off to live on an island.

Imagine if 99% of all humans looked like harlequin babies.  Would someone like Marilyn Monroe be considered beautiful?
If aliens exist, would they consider humans ugly?
Do you even know what you're talking about? Ugly would be least of your problems.


#41    Paranoid Android

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 02:04 PM

View Postredhen, on 28 August 2013 - 01:01 AM, said:



I would argue that the Trinitarian God did this when He incarnated as Jesus, that whosever lives and believes in me shall never die.

That said, there have been many alleged apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary, several had eye-witnesses in the thousands, in the 20th century. Not sure what that proves though as all kinds of explanations can be made. I find them tantalizing though.
And I would argue that the use of the word "believe" has stronger connections with faith and trust. After all, if you believe James 2, even demons "believe" in God, but they shudder. And that's not even deriving into the deeper theological issues of prophecy, salvation, and the nature of God's covenant with Abraham.

Nor is it taking into consideration the context of John 3:16, which doesn't actually say "God incarnated his son so that those who believed might have eternal life". The wording is that "God GAVE his only son...", the implication being Jesus' death. Death is not a miracle. A virgin birth is, and a resurrection is, but neither of these were done solely to prove that he is God.

So whichever way you look at it, my point still firmly stands - nowhere in scripture are miracles done just to prove that God is God so to expect otherwise is pointless.

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#42    klambo

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 02:21 PM

View Postspartan max2, on 27 August 2013 - 01:58 AM, said:

I'm agnostic but I feel inclined to respond to this.

Have you ever heard of tumor remissions? It is were tumors in cancer patients randomly disappear for no apparent reason. Or of people surviving horrible accidents without a scratch.  Or having broken limbs heal in unbelievable amounts of time.



I would calls those miracles :innocent:
Tumours in remission aren't miracles, they are simply the result of the body's own complex mechanisms, healing the tumour.........but  sadly all too often the awesome body's ablities to heal itself will fail against cancer and other fatal diseases.

As for people surviving horrible accidents with no scratch, well probably they were lucky, or I am even willing to entertain that some may have been"protected" by a loved one passed on (yes ghosts/spirits etc).

As for broken limbs..........well how is it that God can supossedly heal broken limbs...........but he has yet to help any human amputee grow back a limb.......does he have something against amputees? :unsure2:

Edited by klambo, 29 August 2013 - 02:28 PM.


#43    klambo

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 02:31 PM

View Postflbrnt, on 27 August 2013 - 08:25 PM, said:

Have you ever seen a newborn baby? Have you ever seen a sunrise? You need more "miracles" than those?

Hitler was once a newborn baby. :cry:


#44    freetoroam

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 02:43 PM

Seems god has stopped producing miracles himself since man discovered how nature works, this does not apply to all man though, some still think nature is rules by a higher force, i say nature IS the higher force.

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.

#45    redhen

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 02:48 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 29 August 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

So whichever way you look at it, my point still firmly stands - nowhere in scripture are miracles done just to prove that God is God so to expect otherwise is pointless.

Yes, I think you are right. I was just trying to think of any counter-example, and I knew my claim was flawed when I posted it.





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