26 replies to this topic

[redhen]

Mantis914, on 17 January 2013 - 09:58 PM, said:

Well, I wouldn't consider cannibalism but if it came to survival, what else is there to do?

who said anything about cannibalism?

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Kudos for Carl Lewis and all veggie eaters out there.  Just because someone else is a vegeterian doesn't mean that I have to become one.  We're all free to make our own choices, right?  

Absolutely.

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Is there a reason why are you taking one line out of what I said earlier so personally?  

And actually, Stone Age societies ate their greens...

http://www.huffingto..._n_2031999.html

Not taken personally, just want to clear things up. You're right, bad example. I should have just said; in a modern agricultural society, eating meat is unnecessary.

[Mantis914]

redhen, on 17 January 2013 - 11:08 PM, said:

who said anything about cannibalism?



Absolutely.



Not taken personally, just want to clear things up. You're right, bad example. I should have just said; in a modern agricultural society, eating meat is unnecessary.

It's ok, as a matter of fact, I've tried going vegetarian a few times unsuccessfully as I'm sure it would be a healthier lifestyle but I haven't the willpower for it.  I've given up smoking from one day to the next without looking back but with food, I just couldn't do it, that's why I say kudos to those who could...

[Simbi Laveau]

I've kept all kinds of salt water crabs over the years ,and they are far more evolved and intelligent,than most people assume.

[Farmerboy]

freetoroam, on 17 January 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

Excuse me, but is this what scientists are doing today, very possibly inflicting pain on living creatures to see if they feel pain??? WHY?
how about they try this experiment on some of this worlds warlords, serial killers, mass murderers, rapists or pedophiles?

If scientists didnt reseach these thing their would be no proof and people would go on saying "its OK they dont feel pain".

Mantis914, on 17 January 2013 - 05:44 PM, said:

Also, if they do feel pain, what will that change?  They still will end up on someone's dinner plate just like chickens and cows...

It could help stop declawing the crabs, where the pull off the claw and chuck the crab back in the sea alive to regrow the claw for the next round.

For anyone interested here are some of his papers

http://forms.mbl.edu...ermit_crabs.pdf

http://ac.els-cdn.co...b97679cf6b82514

http://scholar.googl...l=en&as_sdt=0,5

[Darkwind]

A chief ask the question, that inspired the study.  I guess the chief was kind of freaked out by lobsters screaming when they are dropped in boiling water. I don't like crab or lobster, but I like shrimp. Everything has to eat and something usually ends up invited for dinner.  I think it is good to do this science, though. It gives better understand of what is pain and how it works.

[Mantis914]

Farmerboy, on 18 January 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

If scientists didnt reseach these thing their would be no proof and people would go on saying "its OK they dont feel pain".



It could help stop declawing the crabs, where the pull off the claw and chuck the crab back in the sea alive to regrow the claw for the next round.

For anyone interested here are some of his papers

http://forms.mbl.edu...ermit_crabs.pdf

http://ac.els-cdn.co...b97679cf6b82514

http://scholar.googl...l=en&as_sdt=0,5

Thanks for the link to those papers.  I get a kick out of some of the wording, i.e., "Since animals can not be asked directly...".  Hermit crabs are quite amazing animals and if you've been privledged enough to witness them changing and sizing up their next shell, it's quite remarkable.  For them to pick up a shell and revolve it in their little chilipeds to size it up and explore the inside is just interesting to watch.  Another thing about hermit crabs that is amazing is their strength.  Since they really don't have much of a concept of going around things (over, under and through being the main strategy) they tend to push things aside until they fit which can include rocks that weight far more than their little armored bodies.  I would guess it would be like someone pushing aside a dolmen until they could go comfortably through them.

[freetoroam]

Farmerboy, on 18 January 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

If scientists didnt reseach these thing their would be no proof and people would go on saying "its OK they dont feel pain".

Quite true, but as pointed out by Mantis, will it make any difference? We have people slaughtering animals because of their religion, as long as this is allowed, then I doubt some men  will care about what the crab or fish feels.
If the scientists are doing this research to prove that they do feel and to let people know its not ok...then why do the scientists not tell the religious lot that livestock DO FEEL PAIN.

[Farmerboy]

freetoroam, on 18 January 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

Quite true, but as pointed out by Mantis, will it make any difference? We have people slaughtering animals because of their religion, as long as this is allowed, then I doubt some men  will care about what the crab or fish feels.
If the scientists are doing this research to prove that they do feel and to let people know its not ok...then why do the scientists not tell the religious lot that livestock DO FEEL PAIN.

Scientists find out the facts which may in turn affect welfare legislation, and the work is published for all to see and if it changes how animals are treated, the all the better.Ultimately its up to the lawmakers to enforce the legislation.

The fact that some ignore the results doesnt remove the value or validity of carrying such studies.

[freetoroam]

Farmerboy, on 18 January 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

Scientists find out the facts which may in turn affect welfare legislation, and the work is published for all to see and if it changes how animals are treated, the all the better.Ultimately its up to the lawmakers to enforce the legislation.

The fact that some ignore the results doesnt remove the value or validity of carrying such studies.

Some? there are an awful lot ignoring it...maybe the scientists have chosen to concentrate on the crabs and fish because they know that telling people lifestock feel pain when slaughtered would  make no difference and would more than likely cause a ":jihad" !
if they are that concerned about animal welfare then they should be doing their best to stop cruelty to livestock instead of p ***  y footing around with fish and crabs.

[Farmerboy]

No, the reason why they are working on crabs and fish is because it is a new area and many others have already done and are still doing the work with other species. If all scientists did the same thing nothing would get done. Plus a scientist who spent years specialising in marine biology would do better looking at crabs and fish than they would looking at pigs and sheep.

The scientist behind the study is a leading animal behaviour scientist and leads a course on animal behaviour and welfare. He lectures alongside others fighting for improved welfare for pets livestock and wild animals. Just because it doesnt get on the TV or the newspapers doesnt mean it isnt happening. The fact is that although scientists are trying to improve animal welfare, they cannot enforce legislation, that is up to the government.

If you are concerned with animal welfare, the pussyfooting around with crabs and fish should be as important as that of livestock, seeing as millions are pulled out of the water every year.

[freetoroam]

I am concerned with the crabs and fish, but its not quite the same as livestock being slaughtered because of religious reasons. I understand what you are saying and know the scientists do a lot of good....I just feel that not enough has not been done when i walk into my local supermarket and see halal meat being sold. The animal rights activists managed to put an end to fur in our shops, so why not kosher and halal?
If the scientists say the crabs do feel pain, it will not make any difference to anyone who are abusing them, as you say, laws have to be passed, but surely in our countries these laws are already in place? obviously they are being ignored so experiments on crabs and fish will not change anything. If people ignore them when killing livestock, i very much doubt they will take any notice when it comes to crabs and fish.

I am all for scientists looking at marine life, but to do experiments on them to see if they feel pain?  not for that!

[Farmerboy]

Changing the slaughter methods of animals for religious reasons is not up to the scientists, that rests on the government the shops and the people who buy it.  All they can do is say why things should change or suggest what can be done as they already are.

Most legislation I think is concerned with vertebrates, I know in regards to lab animals the only protected invertebrate is the octopus. Without research into how animals percieve the world, I doubt anything would improve in regards to their welfare. Progress may be slow but it is happening.

The research helps to understand the motivations that drive animals, how they remember and process past experiences and how they compare with other species. Before the study there was little indication that invertebrates feel pain, now we have evidence that suggests otherwise.  It also takes time for such work to reach the masses to have an effect, the study discussed is a few years old now and it is getting more publicity and now people are more aware. The average joe isnt ignoring these things, they might not know or heard about it or havent been informed enough to make a decision.