11638 replies to this topic

[cormac mac airt]

The Puzzler, on 29 October 2010 - 05:54 AM, said:

No, Wiki wasn't wrong, it agreed with this.

Despite this evidence, the exact date of the eruption has been difficult to determine. For most of the twentieth century, archaeologists placed it at c. 1500 BCE, but this date appeared to be too young as radiocarbon dating analysis of an olive tree buried beneath a lava flow from the volcano indicate that the eruption occurred between 1627 BCE and 1600 BCE with a 95% degree of probability (Friedrich, Kromer, Friedrich, Heinemeier, Pfeiffer, Talamo, Science, 2006).

Plus or minus 10 years on 1613BC is 1623-1603BC.

Actually, for quite a while it was given as 1550, not 1500 contrary to Wiki. Not that it matters any at this point. In any case this date also has nothing to do with any alleged events c.2193 BC.

cormac

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 28 October 2010 - 08:57 PM, said:

Before I'm going to leave the forum for a while (going to travel for a few months), I have one more example of inadequate English (Sandbach) translation, and hopefully it will encourage some of you to have a look at the original text as it is really not that difficult to understand, specially if you know a bit of German, Dutch, Afrikaans, Flemmish and/or Scandinavian.

I have chosen the beginning of the first text that Adela's followers copied to save it from oblivion.
("Survivors" page 312, original OLB page 6 or on Tresoar type: pagina "8" ga)

First translation is by Sandbach (1876), second in italic is improvised by me.
Significant corrections are underlined.

THÀT WAS FRYA HIS DEEI
It was Frya's day,
It was Frya's day,

ÀND TO THEERE STONDE WAS.T VRLEEDEN SJVGUN WÁRA SJVGUN JEER.
and seven times seven years had elapsed
and at that time seven times seven years had passed

THAT FÀSTA WAS ANSTÀLD AS FOLK.MODER NEEI FRYA.S JEERTA.
since Festa was appointed Volksmoeder by the desire of Frya.
since Festa was appointed Folkmother after Frya's heart.

THJU BURCH MEEDEEA.S.BLIK WAS REED
The citadel of Medeasblik was ready,
The burgh Medeasblik was ready,

ÀND EN FÁM WAS KEEREN.
and a Burgtmaagd was chosen.
and a Fam was chosen.

NW SKOLDE FÀSTA THJU NEEJA FODDIK VPSTEEKA
Festa was about to light her new lamp,
Now Festa should stick-up the new foddik,

ÀND THÁ THAT DEEN WAS AN ÀINWARDA FON THÀT FOLK
and when she had done so in the presence of all the people,
and when that was done in the presence of the folk,

THÁ HROP FRYA FON HIRA WÁK.STÀRE
Frya called from her watch-star,
Frya called from her wake-star,

SÁ THÀT ALLERA MANNALIK THÀT HEERA MACHTE.
so that every one could hear it:
so that all people might hear it:

FÀSTA. NIM THINRA STIFTE ÀND WRYT THA THINGA
"Festa, take your style and write the things,
"Festa, take your style and write the things,

THEER IK EER NAVT SEGSA NE MACHTE.
that I may not speak."
that I was not allowed to say earlier."

FÀSTA DEEDE ALSA HJA BODEN WÀRTH.
Festa did as she was bid,
Festa did as she was ordered,

SÁ SEND WY FRYA.S BÀRN.A VSA FORMA SKEEDNISE KEEMEN.
and thus we became Frya's children, and our earliest history began.
so we Frya's bern have recieved our first history.

Short interpretation/ food for discussion:
Note that Frya supposedly was not allowed to speak about it during her reign.
What was so taboo about the "Forma Skeednise"?
Festa/ Vesta wrote it down. Did she make it up?
Did she 'channel' it as 'New-agers' would call it today?

This inspires me to make one critical note about Alewyn's book.
In his introduction he writes (p.16):
"Today it seems as if the book only has value for pagan and occult groups - in stark contrast to the intentions and beliefs of the original authors."

First, I doubt if it is true that mostly 'pagan and occult groups' are interested and wonder why he thinks this is so.
Second, a Folkmother hearing the voice of her dead predecessor and writing down what she is 'told', to me sounds like something that we would call an 'occult' practice.

Finally, for those who like maps, two goodies (scanned from "Graven van Holland" by de Boer and Cordfunke):
kaart1small.jpg kaart2small.jpg
Thanks all for the (often) inspiring discussions and good luck truth-seeking.
I'll be back.

Is it just me, or am I the only one who really read what Otharus posted??

He suggests, based on his alternative (and better) translation, that..

Quote

"Short interpretation/ food for discussion:
Note that Frya supposedly was not allowed to speak about it during her reign.
What was so taboo about the "Forma Skeednise"?
Festa/ Vesta wrote it down. Did she make it up?
Did she 'channel' it as 'New-agers' would call it today?"

... the info we read in the OLB is part 'made-up' or channeled, Cayce style.


Otharus, I found something about those new pagans (wait for edit), a very interesting pdf.


===

Another thing: maybe we all are too focussed on finding some major impact around 2200 BC. Does the OLB actually tell us 'something fell out of the skies"??


+++++++

EDIT:

Investigations into the Oera Linda Book
by Mark Puryear

" (...) This is not to say that I, like Mr. Pierce, believe that all or even most of O.L.B represents
authentic Northern European beliefs and histories. In fact, as it will be shown throughout
these investigations, much of this work is a jumbled mess of different beliefs and stories
that are better represented by the more detailed versions found elsewhere, namely
Scandinavia, Germany and Saxony. Though there should not be any doubt as to the
correctness of Mr. Pierce's observation on the advanced North European culture (which
archaeology and other sciences have confirmed) we have reason to believe that this book
is the result of one author's collections, perhaps a collector of history and lore, rather than
the several "Oera Lindas" mentioned therein. Most likely it is either the product Hiddo
oera Linda, who would thus have covered his tracks in the letter to his son Okke (pg. 1)
byexplaining how the original manuscript was damaged in a flood so he had to
"transcribe it on foreign paper"; or it is the product of Liko oviro Linda, who obviously
had some animosity towards the Christian church and sought to keep the work out of
their hands. It is possible that this person may have been some sort of pagan revivalist. (...) "

Download the pdf here:
http://www.norroena.org/articles.html

(or read it here: http://traditionandr...year-t1644.html )

.

Edited by Abramelin, 29 October 2010 - 10:01 AM.

[The Puzzler]

cormac mac airt, on 29 October 2010 - 06:07 AM, said:

Actually, for quite a while it was given as 1550, not 1500 contrary to Wiki. Not that it matters any at this point. In any case this date also has nothing to do with any alleged events c.2193 BC.

cormac

True, ok, off Thera.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 29 October 2010 - 09:29 AM, said:

Is it just me, or am I the only one who really read what Otharus posted??

He suggests, based on his alternative (and better) translation, that..



... the info we read in the OLB is part 'made-up' or channeled, Cayce style.


.

I read it but to me it didn't seem to have much relevance to anything I knew about.

It seems to make sense to me that since Frya was gone and at her watch star, that she can't speak, more than, wasn't allowed to say.

FÀSTA. NIM THINRA STIFTE ÀND WRYT THA THINGA
"Festa, take your style and write the things,
"Festa, take your style and write the things,

THEER IK EER NAVT SEGSA NE MACHTE.
that I may not speak."
that I was not allowed to say earlier."

To me, it's like she can't speak them because she's gone.


I really don't know what the gist of this is about really so that's why I didn't comment on it.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 28 October 2010 - 03:54 PM, said:

I was thinking that, I'm checking tsunami damage in Gotland first, can you see anything of interest in this huge list?
http://www.gi.ee/~veski/Kirjandus.html

Yes, I got something from that big list, but you have posted about it already:

Siim Veski·Atko Heinsalu· ValterLang·
The age of the Kaali meteorite craters and the effect
of the impact on the environment and man:
evidence from inside the Kaalicraters, island of Saaremaa, Estonia
Received: 30 October 2003/Accepted: 6June2004/ Published online: 17July2004



Conclusions

1.AMS dating of terrestrial macrofossils from the
deepest part of the meteorite impact crater-lake at
Kaali, island of Saaremaa, Estonia places the age of
the impact at 1690 - 1510 B.C. The age agrees with
previous research inside the crater, but is about 1000
years older than revealed from impact marker-horizon
radiocarbon dating in a contemporaneous peat se-
quence, yet those two signatures reflect the same im-
pactevent. Themicrospherules discovered by Raukas
et al.(1995) could indicate another much older event

2.Chemical, pollen and diatom analyses from the bottom
sediments of Kaalij
sedimentation of loose crushed dolomite debris took
place in a shallow lake and that there seem to be no
hiatuses in the sedimentation. Consequently the low-
er most sediment contact of Kaalij
radiocarbon dating of the impact event.

3.Biostratigraphic material is difficult to interprete in
terms of impact age,but pollen grains of Secale and
Picea in the bottom sediments of Kaalij
that the impact was not earlier than 3800 B.C.

4.Archaeological evidence on the crater slopes points to
ceremonial activity since 700-200 B.C., and the
structure of the main impact crater is mimicked in
nearby archaeological sites. Some other evidence as
well points towards the importance of meteorite im-
pacts to prehistoric societies.
not connected with the Kaali impact.

http://www.gi.ee/~veski/10915.pdf


"Themicrospherules discovered by Raukas et al.(1995) could indicate another much older event"...

If a much older event happened nearby, then we should maybe start looking for a comet swarm that showed up in the solar system with some kind of regular and stable orbit.

I think Cormac already posted about other, nearby impacts.

EDIT:

Yes he did:

"There are two other impactor areas within relative proximity to the Kaalijarv Crater. These are the Ilumetsa Crater c.4600 BC in Estonia and the Morasco Craters c.3000 - 1500 BC in Poland.

cormac"


It suggests an orbit of 1500 years: 1500 BC - 3000 BC - 4600 BC - 6100 BC?? - 7600 BC.

Hmm..
.

Edited by Abramelin, 29 October 2010 - 10:46 AM.

[The Puzzler]

THEER IK EER NAVT SEGSA NE MACHTE.
that I may not speak."
that I was not allowed to say earlier."

I don't speak Scandinavian, Dutch, Flemmish, Afrikaans or German but I know macht means might, so where does might come into Otharus' interpretation

that I might not speak ??? seems to me what it says...

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 29 October 2010 - 10:45 AM, said:

THEER IK EER NAVT SEGSA NE MACHTE.
that I may not speak."
that I was not allowed to say earlier."

I don't speak Scandinavian, Dutch, Flemmish, Afrikaans or German but I know macht means might, so where does might come into Otharus' interpretation

that I might not speak ??? seems to me what it says...

I will try in Dutch:

"Dat ik eerder niet zeggen in/bij machte"

Or.. "Ik was eerder niet in de macht om het te zeggen"..In english: I wasn't allowed to speak earlier.

If you give someone 'de macht' to say something, it means you give her/him the power/authority to speak up.... or, you 'allow' her/him to speak.

In Dutch we still have an expresion that says, "bij volmacht", and it means to be officially allowed to do/speak.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 29 October 2010 - 10:40 AM, said:

Yes, I got something from that big list, but you have posted about it already:

Siim Veski·Atko Heinsalu· ValterLang·
The age of the Kaali meteorite craters and the effect
of the impact on the environment and man:
evidence from inside the Kaalicraters, island of Saaremaa, Estonia
Received: 30 October 2003/Accepted: 6June2004/ Published online: 17July2004



Conclusions

1.AMS dating of terrestrial macrofossils from the
deepest part of the meteorite impact crater-lake at
Kaali, island of Saaremaa, Estonia places the age of
the impact at 1690 - 1510 B.C. The age agrees with
previous research inside the crater, but is about 1000
years older than revealed from impact marker-horizon
radiocarbon dating in a contemporaneous peat se-
quence, yet those two signatures reflect the same im-
pactevent. Themicrospherules discovered by Raukas
et al.(1995) could indicate another much older event

2.Chemical, pollen and diatom analyses from the bottom
sediments of Kaalij
sedimentation of loose crushed dolomite debris took
place in a shallow lake and that there seem to be no
hiatuses in the sedimentation. Consequently the low-
er most sediment contact of Kaalij
radiocarbon dating of the impact event.

3.Biostratigraphic material is difficult to interprete in
terms of impact age,but pollen grains of Secale and
Picea in the bottom sediments of Kaalij
that the impact was not earlier than 3800 B.C.

4.Archaeological evidence on the crater slopes points to
ceremonial activity since 700-200 B.C., and the
structure of the main impact crater is mimicked in
nearby archaeological sites. Some other evidence as
well points towards the importance of meteorite im-
pacts to prehistoric societies.
not connected with the Kaali impact.

http://www.gi.ee/~veski/10915.pdf


"Themicrospherules discovered by Raukas et al.(1995) could indicate another much older event"...

If a much older event happened nearby, then we should maybe start looking for a comet swarm that showed up in the solar system with some kind of regular and stable orbit.

I think Cormac already posted about other, nearby impacts.

EDIT:

Yes he did:

"There are two other impactor areas within relative proximity to the Kaalijarv Crater. These are the Ilumetsa Crater c.4600 BC in Estonia and the Morasco Craters c.3000 - 1500 BC in Poland.

cormac"


It suggests an orbit of 1500 years: 1500 BC - 3000 BC - 4600 BC - 6100 BC??

Hmm..
.

Yes, I agree.

Ive looked into it some this arvo and Morasco seems interesting, all I can get is 5000BP on that one - your info gives 3000-1500BC which opens a window.

I think too it is regulated because of the mention by Plato that this event returns after much time...

There is newly found crater in Western Egypt same vague timeframe of 5000BP (3000BP)


The mention of Phaethon going over Africa to burn the faces black of the Ethiopians makes me think that more than one impact is being spoken about but maybe at the same time, but also at some sort of interval.


The Perseid meteor showers were mentioned as a possible cause for the Morasco ones.

The Ilumetsa at 4600BC in Estonia too. Seems these people had seen a few then, Poland is not far away either.

4600, 3000, 1500

1500 years, yep, possibly so.

All 3 in the same area too, so it's likely they knew about the previous ones each time.

[cormac mac airt]

Quote

It suggests an orbit of 1500 years: 1500 BC - 3000 BC - 4600 BC - 6100 BC?? - 7600 BC.

Actually, Abramelin, no it doesn't. What it does suggest, IMO, is the possibility that the Kaalijarv Crater and the Morasko Craters 'might' have happened at the same time. But this is only speculation on my part. Again, this would have nothing to do with a 2193 BC date.

Quote

...but I know macht means might...

And that's just one of many possibly meanings in German and DOESN'T mean that that is what it means in Dutch/Frisian/whatever.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 29 October 2010 - 11:04 AM, said:

I will try in Dutch:

"Dat ik eerder niet zeggen in/bij machte"

Or.. "Ik was eerder niet in de macht om het te zeggen"..In english: I wasn't allowed to speak earlier.

If you give someone 'de macht' to say something, it means you give her/him the power/authority to speak up.... or, you 'allow' her/him to speak.

In Dutch we still have an expresion that says, "bij volmacht", and it means to be officially allowed to do/speak.

ne machte - isn't that no powers, so it means had no power to speak before, couldn't speak it...?

[The Puzzler]

cormac mac airt, on 29 October 2010 - 11:21 AM, said:

Actually, Abramelin, no it doesn't. What it does suggest, IMO, is the possibility that the Kaalijarv Crater and the Morasko Craters 'might' have happened at the same time. But this is only speculation on my part. Again, this would have nothing to do with a 2193 BC date.



And that's just one of many possibly meanings in German and DOESN'T mean that that is what it means in Dutch/Frisian/whatever.

cormac

might (v.)
O.E. mihte, meahte, originally the past tense of may (O.E. magen "to be able"), thus "*may-ed." See may (v.). The first record of might-have-been is from 1848.
might (n.)
O.E. miht, earlier mæht, from P.Gmc. *makhtuz (cf. O.N. mattr, O.Fris., M.Du. macht, Ger. Macht, Goth. mahts), from PIE base *mag- "be able, have power" (see may (v.)).


They still both come from PIE mag - be able  - may (able to) /have power

[The Puzzler]

cormac mac airt, on 29 October 2010 - 11:21 AM, said:

Actually, Abramelin, no it doesn't. What it does suggest, IMO, is the possibility that the Kaalijarv Crater and the Morasko Craters 'might' have happened at the same time. But this is only speculation on my part. Again, this would have nothing to do with a 2193 BC date.




cormac

I think they 'might' have happened at the same time too actually, well, it was a thought I had.

First sentence from this pdf file:

Abstract: The TL dating of sinter crust of Morasko meteorites proves that the extraterrestrial matter
fell about 5000 yr BP. Similar data were obtained for the Kaali impact.

http://www.geochrono...28/Geo28_04.pdf

The age of
the Kaali meteorite impact is still under discussion; range
from more than 7500 to 1500 yr BP, but considering
palynological analyses and the radiocarbon dates on craters’
infillings, the craters are at least 4000 yr old (Raukas
and Laigna, 2005; Raukas et al., 2005).

The 2000BC timeframe always pops up with Kaali.

Morasko seems to be older (at 3000BC) but possibly not, these dates seem very all over the place.
The Morasko meteorite shower fell between 5000 -– 3500 BP. The craters
origins and young hollow bottom organic infillings then started.
http://www.geochrono...0/geo_20_17.pdf


Again, the mention of Phaethon's travel over Africa but landing in the Vistula is making me think the Moraska might be a better candidate.

This one is Henbury in Australia:
Several tonnes of iron-nickel fragments have been recovered from the site. The site has been dated to 4.2±1.9 thousand years ago based on the cosmogenic 14C terrestrial age of the meteorite.
http://en.wikipedia....Henbury_craters



Kamil Crater, discovered from Google Earth image review in Egypt, 45 meters in diameter, 10 meters deep is thought to have been formed less than 3,500 years ago in a then-unpopulated region of Western Egypt. It was found February 19, 2009 by V. de Michelle on a Google Earth image of the East Uweinat Desert, Egypt.
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Impact_event

1500BC was a date for the Kaali Crater and the time given in the Parian Marble for Deucalion (and also Phaethon).

Edit to add: from same pdf file above

It is possible to state that between 5000–3500 BP the
Morasko meteoriteshower fell and the meteorite craters
were formed. This event seems to be comparable to the
age of the Kaali craters (Raukas et al., 1995).

Edited by The Puzzler, 29 October 2010 - 12:40 PM.

[Abramelin]

cormac mac airt, on 29 October 2010 - 11:21 AM, said:

Actually, Abramelin, no it doesn't. What it does suggest, IMO, is the possibility that the Kaalijarv Crater and the Morasko Craters 'might' have happened at the same time. But this is only speculation on my part. Again, this would have nothing to do with a 2193 BC date.



And that's just one of many possibly meanings in German and DOESN'T mean that that is what it means in Dutch/Frisian/whatever.

cormac

Yes, I was a bit quick in concluding some sort of regular interval of impact events in that area. It seems quite unlikely that every 1500 years an impact event occurs in almost the same area.

--

About the translation : it could just mean: "I had no might to speak up earlier", or, "I wasn't able to speak up earlier". Could mean anything.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 29 October 2010 - 12:06 PM, said:

I think they 'might' have happened at the same time too actually, well, it was a thought I had.

First sentence from this pdf file:

Abstract: The TL dating of sinter crust of Morasko meteorites proves that the extraterrestrial matter
fell about 5000 yr BP. Similar data were obtained for the Kaali impact.

http://www.geochrono...28/Geo28_04.pdf

The age of
the Kaali meteorite impact is still under discussion; range
from more than 7500 to 1500 yr BP, but considering
palynological analyses and the radiocarbon dates on craters’
infillings, the craters are at least 4000 yr old (Raukas
and Laigna, 2005; Raukas et al., 2005).

The 2000BC timeframe always pops up with Kaali.

Morasko seems to be older but possibly not.

Check the table at the end of the pdf, "Table 2. Luminescence ages (TL and OSL) of samples from Kaali site"...

Your preferred date shows up only once in that table.

==

Also, from the same pdf:

At Ilumetsa, at least three craters are present. Põrguhaud,
the largest one, has a diameter of 75-80 m at the top of
the uplifted rim, and is 12.5 m deep. The crater is partly
filled with a thin layer of gyttja and peat that is up to 2 m
thick. Radiocarbon ages of 6030±100 (TA-310; 6600-
7250 cal BP) and 5910±100 (TA-752; 6450-7000 cal BP)
yr BP from the lowermost organic layer and palynologi-
cal evidence suggest that the impact took place some
C14 7000 C yr BP. Not far to South of Põrguhaud the next
crater is present; it is ~60 m in diameter and ~10 m deep,
but does not show rim walls. Its bottom is covered by ~2
m thick sandy diluvium. Investigation of glassy spherules
in nearby Meenikunno bog suggest, that the Ilumetsa
craters were formed about 6600 yr ago (Raukas et al.,
2001).  

The oldest meteorite crater of the Quaternary age in
Estonia is located at Tsõõrikmägi near Räpina town (see
Raukas, 2002). Its mound is flattened, but a ring structure
is well preserved. The diameter of the crater at the top of
the mound is 38-40 m, and its depth from the highest
point of the rim is 5.5 m. The crater is located in the red-
dish-brown basal till. The peat in the depression is 4.5 m
thick and, according to the palynological and radiocarbon
data, the age of the crater is about 9500 yr (Raukas,
2002).  

It appears to me that either we should look for some totally different event at 2000 BC, or wait till any defintive results show up.

[cormac mac airt]

Quote

It appears to me that either we should look for some totally different event at 2000 BC, or wait till any defintive results show up.

The third option is to quit trying to pin something on a 2000 BC date, which is still irrelevant to the 2193 BC date. Neither of which is evidenced as being this BIG, DRAMATIC, CATASTROPHIC event in history as has been alleged by the OP and Alewyn's book. It's either that, or both the OP and Alewyn's book, based on the specific 2193 BC date should be dismissed completely as unevidenced and irrelevant to actual history. Neither of which would exclude the possibility of something significant having happened in the 3rd millenium BC.

cormac