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The Incas, explorers of the Pacific


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#136    Abramelin

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 04:08 PM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 26 April 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

Posted Image

I feel the pattern at the side of the trunk is actually on the tusk.You can see how the tusk is protruding

And please those who think this motif is closer to being a macaw then an elephant please look at actual macaws more closely.

That looks more like it.

If this is a macaw, I'll eat my shoes.

These are macaws as depicted by the Maya:

Posted Image
http://www.wilderuto...-forces-of-awe/



Posted Image
Posted Image

http://wildbirdsbroa...01_archive.html

.

Edited by Abramelin, 26 April 2013 - 04:17 PM.


#137    Abramelin

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 04:31 PM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 26 April 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

Isn't it obvious.
Who put out english/spanish translations of the native sources first?
Who exploited these people and continue to propound their versions of the same texts for centuries?
Now when we read these sources, they have already been propounded as the correct version for centuries. I belive there must have been a lot of distortion some intentional and some unintentional done by the early Spanish.
Foe eg- the Human sacrifice issue was blown up and given as a proof of these people being barbaric and demonic and was used to almost exterminate them by the conquestedors. I don't think these early spanish looters would have had the right intellectual capability and frame of mind to report correct versions of the actual cultural practices and their significance prevalent in those times ignoring their personal bais and supremacist mentality.

No, it isn't as obvious as you think. You seem to forget not everything got wiped from the plate by the conquistadores, and some traditions are still alive. But you'll have to travel to remote areas in Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador and Chile.

They have found proof of human (child) sacrifice. Nowadays they use llama fetuses for the same purpose.

Oh, and btw: not all the chroniclers were conquistadores and looters.


#138    Abramelin

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 04:38 PM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 26 April 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

Abe peoples/traditions from India may have migrated to south east Asia and from there on to South America through polynesia.

Now there are two possibilities according to me, the people actually migrated from India or the traditions were passed on and were carried across.

The genetic data will be relevant only once we can determine when such a migration happened, if it happened say in 12000 BC when the global population was relatively low and an entire tribe decided to leave a particular geographic location and move to another for whatever reason, then the particular geneitc traits carried by the tribe will dissappear from location A and appear at the Destination location B. When we would try to analyse current gentic data, it would seem to us that the two peoples i.e the ones still found in location A but of a different tribe and the ones found in Location B are not genetically related.I would be vary of the migrations hypothesis based on Gentic data alone for the same reason.

A genetic link would not be necessary if only the tradition and culture was propogated. For example the ramayan is known almost throughout south east Asia, and there are variations observed.


12,000 BCE, that's a bit far back for traditions and images to look similar on both sides of the Pacific.

So I say that IF one people influenced the other across the Pacific, it must have happened much later, say 2000 years ago.

And in that case we sure should find clear genetic links, be it with India or SE Asia.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 26 April 2013 - 04:57 PM.


#139    The_Spartan

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 03:23 AM

Harsh's whole whimsy on Indians being related to South American mayans/incans falls falt for want of genetic link between them.

Can you provide some evidence, genetic study proving that there was any such link????

I doubt so.

Just because some carvings looks like elephants or some title of a festival sounds like "Rama" of whatever isnt evidence enough.

Unless you  can provide such evidence, its advisable not to make a fool of yourself.
Better buy a

Posted Image

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#140    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 06:11 AM

View PostThe_Spartan, on 26 April 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

AS IF..he can negate all the efforts and expertise of those who spend ages and ages of field works and education.
A goddamn armchair Psuedo-whatever-ian!~! Ba Humbug!!!

Nevermind. Please see with your own two eyes and decide.


#141    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 06:14 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 26 April 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

12,000 BCE, that's a bit far back for traditions and images to look similar on both sides of the Pacific.

So I say that IF one people influenced the other across the Pacific, it must have happened much later, say 2000 years ago.

And in that case we sure should find clear genetic links, be it with India or SE Asia.

.
I suggested an older date for the migration of peoples if there was any, i agree the cultural/traditional resembelance we currently observe might not be as old.  The date i gave was more as an example of how genetic analysis of ancient migrations may be wrong.


#142    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 06:17 AM

View PostThe_Spartan, on 27 April 2013 - 03:23 AM, said:

Harsh's whole whimsy on Indians being related to South American mayans/incans falls falt for want of genetic link between them.

Can you provide some evidence, genetic study proving that there was any such link????

I doubt so.

Just because some carvings looks like elephants or some title of a festival sounds like "Rama" of whatever isnt evidence enough.

Unless you  can provide such evidence, its advisable not to make a fool of yourself.
Better buy a

Posted Image

Abe this is what i was talking about.
I just gave a scenario to abe where if an ancient tribe in it's entirity would have migrated from location A to location B then the genetic traits associated with the tribe would dissappear from location A  and would appear in location B. When we would analyse current genetic data between the two people i.e the other tribes that stayed back in location A and the desdcendants of the tribe that shifted to location B then they it would seem like this people were isolated genetically.


#143    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 06:19 AM

Though i would like to declare, that i am not yet completely certain of an ancient Indian-Mayan connection, but i am exploring the possibility. This is a subject which i have not researched in enough detail and hence i am yet to form a proper opinion for the same.


#144    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 06:23 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 26 April 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

It's rather unlikely one would paint a picture/create a sculpture of an animal that hasn't existed since the end of the last glacial period.

cormac
There were a lot of elephants in south east Asia.


#145    The_Spartan

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 07:18 AM

View PostHarsh86_Patel, on 27 April 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

Abe this is what i was talking about.
I just gave a scenario to abe where if an ancient tribe in it's entirity would have migrated from location A to location B then the genetic traits associated with the tribe would dissappear from location A  and would appear in location B. When we would analyse current genetic data between the two people i.e the other tribes that stayed back in location A and the desdcendants of the tribe that shifted to location B then they it would seem like this people were isolated genetically.

How ever far the diaspora might be, we can always trace the genetic lineage.
That negates your proposition.
Unless you have evidence of gene flow from the Indian sub continent to  south america in the ancient times, the whole proposition is a whimsy.

edit to  add :

aaah you  meant to say that the particular ancient tribe has DNA specific to it and cant be traced back or forward to any other gene pool at all??
From india? Not a chance.Humans didnt simply sprout up in the indian sub continent.
and i know that there is no use arguing out of Africa theory with you. For every accepted theories and facts, Harsh has always got an alternative theory (seriously, i would love to hear your alternative to the Out of Africa theory)

Humans migrated into the Indian Subcontinent and DNA proves it too.
But, to you, it aint proof enough.

Debating with you is like arguing with a brick wall. When we can assimilate the salient points you put forth if found true, you simply cant accept or digest what we put forth.


Unless you can prove that there has been gene flow from Ancient Indian Subcontinent  Civilizations/Cultures to those in Ancient South America, i suggest you  tag your theory as fiction or a whimsy.

Edited by The_Spartan, 27 April 2013 - 07:28 AM.

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#146    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 07:24 AM

View PostThe_Spartan, on 27 April 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

How ever far the diaspora might be, we can always trace the genetic lineage.
That negates your proposition.
Unless you have evidence of gene flow from the Indian sub continent to  south america in the ancient times, the whole proposition is a whimsy.
Oh golly, what do you know of genetics? All human genomes have similar features, we all have had a common ancestor. What i am saying is that it is difficult to decide basis current genetic data,that at what point of time a peoples seperated from another. Any study claiming to do so is based on assumptions. Hence currently observed genetic data cannot be used to accurately chart ancient migrations and or connections.
A lot of gentic data observed today would have also been impacted by cultural practices of different peoples.


#147    Abramelin

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 07:39 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 26 April 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

It's rather unlikely one would paint a picture/create a sculpture of an animal that hasn't existed since the end of the last glacial period.

cormac

Maybe you should read this post of mine:

http://www.unexplain...05#entry4749320

And add to that that it is very likely (based on art forms) that the Maya (or better, the Olmec) were in contact with people from South America.


#148    Abramelin

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 08:50 AM

Abstract

An analysis of the stratigraphy and radiocarbon dating of an excavation in the El Totumo site
(Tocaima, Cundinamarca, Colombia), where bones of Mastodon and Megatherium were found
associated with stone artifacts of the El Abra type, brings to the conclusion that man and
megafauna still cohabited in the area between 6000 and 5000 years before present. A stone
statue of the early San Agustín Culture (perhaps of the ninth century before Christ), shows a
face or mask that seems to represent an elephant; this may mean that they had knowledge of the
existence of Mastodons still in that time, or of an ancestral memory (cultural/ tradition) of an
earlier period.

-

Este conjunto de datos del Alto de Lavapatas, parece
corroborar los datos de El Totumo, en cuanto a la sobrevivencia
de elementos de la megafauna pleistocénica en
el Holoceno. Quizás al comienzo de la propia cultura de
San Agustín, cercana a 3000 AP (1000 AC), había todavía
algunos mastodontes sobrevivientes, o existía todavía
la tradición cultural heredada de los anteriores habitantes
de la región.

Transl.:
This set of data from the Alto de Lavapatas seems
to corroborate the data from Totumo regarding survival
of elements of Pleistocene megafauna in the Holocene.
Perhaps at the very beginning of the San Agustín
Culture, close to 3000 BP (1000 BC), there were still
some mastodon survivors, or was there was still a
cultural tradition inherited from the former inhabitants
of the region.


http://www.accefyn.o...PERVIVENCIA.pdf

http://whc.unesco.or...=31&id_site=744

http://translate.goo...3%ADn_(cultuur)

San Agustín, Colombia:
Posted Image


#149    Abramelin

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 12:33 PM

I couldn't find that face or mask of the San Agustín Culture, but I found this statue:

Posted Image

http://wigowsky.com/...ook/ch3/ch3.htm

And then this, from the Codex Borgia (Aztec):

Posted Image

Posted Image

That's one hell of a macaw....

Posted Image
.

Edited by Abramelin, 27 April 2013 - 01:27 PM.


#150    Harte

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 03:39 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 26 April 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

That looks more like it.

If this is a macaw, I'll eat my shoes.
I hope your shoes are tasty, or that you are capable of showing that the Maya had the same word for "macaw" as they did for "elephant."

As for me, I much prefer believing the statements used by the artists themselves over what a damaged part of sculpture "seems" to look like.

Mayan art is highly stylized.  Check out some of their jaguars.

Harte

Edited by Harte, 27 April 2013 - 03:41 PM.

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