Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * * - 7 votes

Secret Caves under the Pyramids


  • Please log in to reply
902 replies to this topic

#181    cladking

cladking

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 7,675 posts
  • Joined:06 Nov 2006
  • Location:Indiana

  • Tempus fugit.

Posted 26 December 2012 - 08:55 PM

Meanwhile the existence of caves is simply ignored because the powers that be can't
see how caves would be related to tombs, ramps, bumpkins, or static culture.  They can't
understand how caves could be related to a place named "The Mouth of Caves" or that
they might be related to the Pyramid Texts which is the only thing we actually have similar
to "cultural context".

1551a. To say: This thy cavern there is the broad-hall of Osiris N..

1557b. he who hastens with his soul goes to his cave;


What are the Egyptologists so frightened of?  If they're so afraid of snakes and bats then they
should hire somebody to come in and do the work.  Of course they aren't doing any of the science
at Giza so it's deeper than just a few snakes and serpents.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#182    DieChecker

DieChecker

    I'm a Rogue Scholar

  • Member
  • 17,231 posts
  • Joined:21 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portland, Oregon, USA

  • Hey, I'm not wrong. I'm just not completely right.

Posted 26 December 2012 - 09:17 PM

View Postcladking, on 26 December 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

Every part of the ramp debunkment has survived the exceedingly little scrutiny that ithas been paid.  I've had to modify parts of it to fit the arguments against it.  It stands.
I'd lke to hear that from someone other then the one who supposedly did the Debunkment. Even the Flat Earth people will tell you there are correct, but that means Nothing unless others agree with them.

Quote

You are thinking of the facts as to how they were built as being established (a plane took three hours...), but nothing could possibly be further from the truth.  Even that the stones of which the pyramids are composed came from Giza is not firmly established.  we are assuming a big hole in the plateau with quarry marks is the source of the stone but this isn't actually established because Egyptology is not doing any science.  Nothing is established except the pyramids exist and Egyptology have founded a belief system on the concept that they must have used ramps.  There is no 90% sure, there is only 99% assumption.

The facts are established. Stone chemistry can and HAS been tested. They know where all the materials of the GP came from. They found the tools used to crave out the blocks. They found blocks that were cut but never transported. They have found all the facts that are needed to make a highly likely assumption of what happened.

If you have two pieces of bread, some sliced meat, some sliced cheese and some tomatos all staked up it does not take a genuis to assume that it is a sandwich. When 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 4, there is no reason to assume that the real answer must be 3 or 5.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#183    cladking

cladking

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 7,675 posts
  • Joined:06 Nov 2006
  • Location:Indiana

  • Tempus fugit.

Posted 26 December 2012 - 09:48 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 26 December 2012 - 09:17 PM, said:

I'd lke to hear that from someone other then the one who supposedly did the Debunkment. Even the Flat Earth people will tell you there are correct, but that means Nothing unless others agree with them.

For the main part it is simply ignored because people believe in ramps.  Very few
comments have been made at all and, unsurprisingly, some of the commenters do
not agree with my assessment.  This is simply the result of a paucity of hard evidence
of any sort making certainty for or against impossible.  But each part of the debunk-
ment still stands.

I personally believe the fact that the word "ramp" isn't even attested before the 5th
dynasty to be most telling of all. When the word finally is used it's as a means to get
from point A to point B on foot.  It's a walkway rather than a tool to lift stones.

People naturally jump to conclusions.  Our brains simply try to put everything in terms
we understand.  We can't even see things we don't expect and do see things that con-
firm our judgement.  The problem is people have jumped to the wrong conclusions. We
need to do the science (gather the data) that will lead people to a paradigm that can
make accurate predictions.

The only thing they really have to fear is that the science will confirm an idea that has
failed for 150 years.  Tombs are dead, long live the tombs.

Do the science and then you can lord it over all those silly alts.  In the meantime Egypt-
ology is looking worse and worse.  They look scared.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#184    Swede

Swede

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 2,380 posts
  • Joined:30 Apr 2009
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 26 December 2012 - 09:53 PM

View Postcladking, on 23 December 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

I'm not sure why you'd describe the filling of holes built for an unknown purpose with
concrete to be "minimally invasive".  When we finally have to jackhammer all this cement
out of the holes a great deal of evidence will be permanently lost.
  And then there's re-
moving the western boat placed there 4700 years ago which can hardly be called min-
imally invasive.  I suppose swatting the beetle was hardly worthy of note just as is digging
up grave after grave and removing the occupants.  Then there's the sheer lunacy of de-
ciding there must be another chamber with a dead king in it because a book of fiction
written 1000 years after the pyramid was built can be interpreted to mean this.  On this
basis they send robots up the shafts and drill holes.

Meanwhile none of the important work is being done because Egyptologists already believe
it's a tomb built with ramps so anything that can't support this doesn't get measured and
doesn't get studied.  It's a shame the damage going on but it's a bigger shame the import-
ant work not being done.

Re: Bolded #1 - Kindly reread the referenced quote:

Properly conducted archaeological research routinely entails extensive evaluative processes prior to any invasive (and potentially damaging) procedures. Quite a number of non/minimally- invasive geological evaluations of the Giza Plateau have already been conducted (Emphasis added) (Swede #137).

You would appear to be conflating two separate comments in addition to again demonstrating a lack of familiarity with archaeological methodology.

As to your reference regarding concrete filled voids, to what would you be referring? Collins' Tomb of the Birds? If so, it should be noted that the entrance to the "Tomb" is protected by a steel-grate gate set in concrete.

Posted Image

Photo credit: Larry Hunter, 2010.

As to the funerary boat excavation, you are aware that this was a process that involved quite a number of years of analysis and evaluation prior to the actual excavation? Including having suitable preservational facilities already in place?

.


#185    cladking

cladking

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 7,675 posts
  • Joined:06 Nov 2006
  • Location:Indiana

  • Tempus fugit.

Posted 26 December 2012 - 10:30 PM

View PostSwede, on 26 December 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:

Re: Bolded #1 - Kindly reread the referenced quote:

Properly conducted archaeological research routinely entails extensive evaluative processes prior to any invasive (and potentially damaging) procedures. Quite a number of non/minimally- invasive geological evaluations of the Giza Plateau have already been conducted (Emphasis added) (Swede #137).

You would appear to be conflating two separate comments in addition to again demonstrating a lack of familiarity with archaeological methodology.

As to your reference regarding concrete filled voids, to what would you be referring? Collins' Tomb of the Birds? If so, it should be noted that the entrance to the "Tomb" is protected by a steel-grate gate set in concrete.

As to the funerary boat excavation, you are aware that this was a process that involved quite a number of years of analysis and evaluation prior to the actual excavation? Including having suitable preservational facilities already in place?


Truth to tell, I believe that most of what Egyptology destroys to study and examine the
evidence is fully justified in the last 125 years or so.  I believe it might be better if they
were slower to destroy the irretrievable and faster to remove overburden but this is mostly
an opinion from relative ignorance.  However I don't believe it's necessary to destroy each
grave and to remove artefacts to a single location where they are in danger of being de-
stroyed.  I know it's best to excavate and examine things while having a good understanding
of what you're actually looking at.  There aren't a lot of places where they are just simply
wrong because these guys are pretty sharp.  But their values and priorities couldn't be more
wrong.  Logically you seek easy data and wholly nondestructive data first and they are not
doing this.  Logically you investigate anomalies first and they are not doing this.

What they are doing is essentially looking at this from their perspectiove and trying to prove
it.  This isd not the way science is done.  Science is the invention of experiment to test a point
or the observation that some datum can prove a point and then obtaining such data.  Science
isn't rushing out on the plateau with trowels looking for ramps and bumpkins but it is gathering
data.  Simply stated, if there's something you don't know about the plateau you measure it. If
there's an anomaly on the plateau you study it.  Hawass actually said that he knows everything
there is to know about the plateau. In ten thousand years we still won't know one millionth of 1%
of what there is to know about the plateau but by then they'll get a good chuckle out of Hawass'
statement.  They'll know a billion times what we know and they'll know when to laugh.

I don't want them to destroy evidence.  The bottom of the cave could be lower than the level that
existed in the 4th dynasty or lower than some of the evidence.  I have no doubt that there will be
evidence of man all through the layers of guano and the guano itself could have some limited
value as information about past conditions.  Ideally, in such situations you simply leave some areas
unexcavated so future scientists with new more advanced tools and instruments can gather the
data that is impossible today.  To see the cave as the ancients saw and used it you have to get
to the bottom of the bat droppings.  To even know where it leads you'll need a shovel and pick.

They are destroying evidence almost daily.  Anything they don't percieve as relevant they are liable
to change to suit current needs or the needs of the countless tourists.  So long as they believe only
ramps could have been used they will continue to ignore evidence that doesn't fit and destroy what's
inconvenient.  As scientists they should be striving to gather information to prove their conjectures.
They are so busy drilling holes and troweling wind blown sand that they might never get to gathering
the data which can prove or disprove ramps.  This is no way to run a science.  Dr Hawass was great
for promoting tourism and trying to protect the sites on limited budgets but he severely damaged the
science of Egyptology through exclusion and dogma.

Egypt deserves better.  People deserve better.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#186    cladking

cladking

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 7,675 posts
  • Joined:06 Nov 2006
  • Location:Indiana

  • Tempus fugit.

Posted 26 December 2012 - 10:42 PM

View PostSwede, on 26 December 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:

As to your reference regarding concrete filled voids, to what would you be referring? Collins' Tomb of the Birds? If so, it should be noted that the entrance to the "Tomb" is protected by a steel-grate gate set in concrete.

There was what I believe was an hydraulic elevator a few hundred feet south of the east side
of G1 which I have been told has been filled with concrete.  This could actually be more a means
to preserve it than destroy it but it certainly becomes unstudiable in its current condition.  Any
means to remove the concrete might entail destruction of subtle yet critical evidence.  Some
chemical change is also likely though probably of little or no import.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#187    DieChecker

DieChecker

    I'm a Rogue Scholar

  • Member
  • 17,231 posts
  • Joined:21 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portland, Oregon, USA

  • Hey, I'm not wrong. I'm just not completely right.

Posted 26 December 2012 - 11:42 PM

View Postcladking, on 26 December 2012 - 09:48 PM, said:

For the main part it is simply ignored because people believe in ramps.  .... But each part of the debunkment still stands.
So.... just you then?? OK. I can live with that, as long as all the readers of this thread understand this is your own private Debunkment and not a generally accepted idea.

Quote

I personally believe the fact that the word "ramp" isn't even attested before the 5th dynasty to be most telling of all. When the word finally is used it's as a means to get from point A to point B on foot.  It's a walkway rather than a tool to lift stones.
Or even a Road? Roads were used to move construction materials. A ramp is just a elevated road.

And... I believe your own quotes, about caves and Osiris... are from the 5th dynasty also, right?

Quote

People naturally jump to conclusions.  Our brains simply try to put everything in terms we understand.  We can't even see things we don't expect and do see things that confirm our judgement.  The problem is people have jumped to the wrong conclusions. We need to do the science (gather the data) that will lead people to a paradigm that can make accurate predictions.
So what data needs to be gathered? How are YOU not jumping to a wrong conclusion?

AFAIK, no one has come up with a better conclusion, that better matches the evidence... AND convinces people it is correct. After all Aliens fits the evidence as well as ramps, or could be made to fit, and no one takes that seriously. Well, almost no one....

View PostSwede, on 26 December 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:

As to your reference regarding concrete filled voids, to what would you be referring? Collins' Tomb of the Birds? If so, it should be noted that the entrance to the "Tomb" is protected by a steel-grate gate set in concrete.

I'd like to know what he was talking about too. Even if one hole is being filled in, that is not a systematic destruction of tombs and wells.

Edited by DieChecker, 26 December 2012 - 11:44 PM.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#188    cladking

cladking

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 7,675 posts
  • Joined:06 Nov 2006
  • Location:Indiana

  • Tempus fugit.

Posted 27 December 2012 - 03:34 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 26 December 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:


So what data needs to be gathered? How are YOU not jumping to a wrong conclusion?

AFAIK, no one has come up with a better conclusion, that better matches the evidence... AND convinces people it is correct. After all Aliens fits the evidence as well as ramps, or could be made to fit, and no one takes that seriously. Well, almost no one....


I am one of relatively few who don't much jump to conclusions.  I jump ahead to the answer by
means of intuition and this answer may well be entirely wrong but I don't jump to conclusions be-
cause I've never reached a conclusion.  I strive to be perfectly ignorant and should I live long
enough I might yet achieve it.  But this is beside the point just as much as what other people
believe is beside the point.  It is wholly irrelevant if everyone believes disease is caused by bac-
teria or the moon is made of green cheese because nature doesn't care and holds no vote. If
you jump off a twenty story building because you think you can fly you will splat on the sidewalk
below unless you are a bird or a cartoon character.  ...So it goes.  If surgeons are all in agree-
ment that washing their hands and instruments before operations is a waste of time then all their
patients will die despite the aggregate learned opinion.  All human activity is an appeal to mother
nature and she dispenses the cases as she deems fit. There are no explanations and no appeals.
The fact that ramps have been drilled into peoples heads for 150 years is wholly irrelevant to the
truth and the debunkment stands whether one person agrees or no one at all.  This is because
we have only reason and facts to try to predict how mother nature will rule.  Sometimes there isn't
much to work with.  I believe we have ample evidence to virtually exclude ramps from consideration
of how the great pyramids were built. I believe that if they actually did real science that proof ramps
weren't used could easily be found.

They are afraid of the pyramid because it simply doesn't fit the preconceptions.  It is a 6 1/2 million
ton anomaly reminding them everyday that the paradigm is composed of contradictions and count-
less inconsistencies.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#189    cladking

cladking

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 7,675 posts
  • Joined:06 Nov 2006
  • Location:Indiana

  • Tempus fugit.

Posted 27 December 2012 - 03:38 PM

Let me put it this way;  The caves are an anomaly at a place called the "Mouth of Caves".

That previous sentence should set off alarm bells in any reasonable person's mind.  Why
is it being ignored?  What are they so afraid of that they can't do even the most basic sci-
ence?  Across the board they are hiding themselves from the facts.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#190    Cassea

Cassea

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,064 posts
  • Joined:20 Nov 2011
  • Gender:Female

Posted 27 December 2012 - 03:51 PM

You mentioned the Coral Castle.  There's a very simple way to move large pieces of stone.  Without levitation.  With wood beams and rocks.



Understanding Traumatic Brain Injury communication issues.   http://www.asha.org/.../#comm_problems

#191    Swede

Swede

    Poltergeist

  • Member
  • 2,380 posts
  • Joined:30 Apr 2009
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 28 December 2012 - 12:13 AM

View Postcladking, on 26 December 2012 - 10:30 PM, said:

As scientists they should be striving to gather information to prove their conjectures.
They are so busy drilling holes and troweling wind blown sand that they might never get to gathering
the data which can prove or disprove ramps.


And herein lies the crux of your misunderstanding as it relates to the ongoing archaeological/geological/biological/environmental, etc., research related to the Giza Plateau (or other sites). The concept behind the various fields of research is much more comprehensive and is based upon furthering our insights into past cultures in toto. That ramps were a part of the technological lexicon of the period under consideration is documented.

Archaeological research is perpetually limited in its funding and there are numerous research proposals/designs to be accommodated and coordinated. In the processes of these various studies, notable ranges of data are accumulated and interpolated.

It is rather unlikely that the qualified researchers involved in the ongoing studies are particularly concerned with your own personal fantasies. However, should credible data related to the topic be encountered, you may be rather confident that it will be documented and reported.

.


#192    cladking

cladking

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 7,675 posts
  • Joined:06 Nov 2006
  • Location:Indiana

  • Tempus fugit.

Posted 28 December 2012 - 03:09 AM

View PostSwede, on 28 December 2012 - 12:13 AM, said:

And herein lies the crux of your misunderstanding as it relates to the ongoing archaeological/geological/biological/environmental, etc., research related to the Giza Plateau (or other sites). The concept behind the various fields of research is much more comprehensive and is based upon furthering our insights into past cultures in toto. That ramps were a part of the technological lexicon of the period under consideration is documented.

Archaeological research is perpetually limited in its funding and there are numerous research proposals/designs to be accommodated and coordinated. In the processes of these various studies, notable ranges of data are accumulated and interpolated.

It is rather unlikely that the qualified researchers involved in the ongoing studies are particularly concerned with your own personal fantasies. However, should credible data related to the topic be encountered, you may be rather confident that it will be documented and reported.

Nonsense.  One can build an inclined surface without ever thinking the word "ramp".
Animals build ramps but the word is probably not in their language.  I would suggest
that while you can build a ramp without thinking of the concept that it's impossible to
build a structure usiung an inclined surface you made yourself while draggiong stones
up it without the use of the word.  This word is simply unattested before the 5th dyna-
sty!!  They understoiod concepts as complicated as balance and weighing/ reckoning
but never used the word "ramp".  I would find it astounding they could drag 6 1/2 mil-
lion tons up a ramp they built themselves but somehow neglect to use the word.  No
god of ramps or ramp builder, stone draggers, nothing of the sort survives.  The silly
little structures Egyptologists find about the pyramids and dignify with the term "ramp"
have cross members that would prevent the use of rollers which is just as well since
there's no evidence for rollers and wood was so precious they wouldn't waste tons of
it each day to roll stones.

You just can't reconci;le the nonsensical proposition trhat they mustta used ramps
with the physical evidence that these are five step pyramids.  These things are simply
and incompatible. The most demeaning thing ever said about the ancients is that "they
mustta used ramps".  This is tantamount to saying these people were so stupid and
backward that they could not invent any other method to lift stones.  But it's even more
demeaning to us because it suggests that we are so superstitious that we have to be-
lieve our ancestors were bumpkins.  It says that we are so superstitious that we can't
concieve of any other type of world and we are afraid to actually go runthe tests that
would answer the questions.

If you're saying archaeological research is about digging as big a hole in the sand as
possible and then sticking our heads in it then I agree whole heartedly.

As I told you years ago all the research would support my theories and deny ramps.  You
might have overlooked the fact that we are in a thread discussing a cave that Hawass
insisted couldn't exist only a couple years ago.  In 2010 Lehner dug up a cistern down-
hill from the G2 water catchment device that could only be filled by steady flow from a-
bove or by walking miles to the river to get water.  In 2011 he found evidence that the
Nile did not flow in this area.  Actually if you look more closely you'll find virtually all the
news for 150 years denies ramps and points in another direction.  But people can't see
what they don't expect so they report dry facts instead of its implications.

It will continue just this way until people open their eyes.  It will not be established how
the pyramids were built ubntil all the basic science is done.  I often say that the ancients
are spinning in their graves but I'd wager Petrie is spinning much faster.  Science has
lost out to politics and religion.  It has lost out to superstition.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#193    kmt_sesh

kmt_sesh

    Telekinetic

  • 7,451 posts
  • Joined:08 Jul 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chicago, Illinois

Posted 28 December 2012 - 03:58 AM

View Postcladking, on 28 December 2012 - 03:09 AM, said:

...This word is simply unattested before the 5th dynasty!!  They understoiod concepts
as complicated as balance and weighing/ reckoning but never used the word "ramp".

...

Goodness, you simply need to stop making up stuff that "sounds right" to you. You've already admitted your limitations in research, so why would you misrepresent the body of evidence for something about which you know so little? It becomes astounding. Please cite a source of respectable repute that will corroborate the above portion I've quoted. I don't want a long soliloquy or meandering philosophical discourse based on your personal opinions—I want only corroboration that will support your statement.

Obviously ramps were well known to the Egyptians, for construction purposes and long before the Great Pyramid was built. A Dynasty 1 tomb in Saqqara, designated Tomb 3507, still has the remains of a construction ramp on the north side.

Posted Image
Words of wisdom from Richard Clopton:
For every credibility gap there is a gullibility fill.

Visit My Blog!

#194    Imaginarynumber1

Imaginarynumber1

    I am not an irrational number

  • Member
  • 4,224 posts
  • Joined:22 Mar 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ohio

Posted 28 December 2012 - 04:53 AM

View PostLRW, on 22 December 2012 - 11:09 PM, said:

Judging by your post, you lack the intelligence to understand as to what exactly defines a GOD that in the mythology of the people is clearly defined as having an extraterrestrial origin.

Its not surprising though, given your general lack of knowledge regarding such matters and in turn your callous reaction to the topic.

Judging by all most all of your posts, you fail to understand the inception and uses of religion in a culture. You post baseless assertions and claim them as indisputable fact, then call everyone who disagrees with you ignorant.

What, prey tell, are your academic credentials? What and where have you studied and for how long?

Edited by Imaginarynumber1, 28 December 2012 - 04:54 AM.

"A cat has nine lives. For three he plays, for three he strays, and for the last three he stays."


July 17th, 2008 (Full moon the next night)

RAPTORS! http://www.unexplain...pic=233151&st=0


#195    dreamland

dreamland

    Apparition

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 351 posts
  • Joined:08 May 2007

Posted 28 December 2012 - 05:08 AM

I am afraid to say...but we may never know how egyptians build pyramids...everyone here and in the world may have different answers.but for any answer...there is no solid proof....even if i say that they were build by aliens,egyptians used ramps levitation..or any other explanation..i dont have prove... whoever build pyramids had know a lot about planets and math.... to this day i believe that builders left a message how they did it...that is somewhere underground,,,maybe in the hall of records...i dont know...they left us a puzzle to figure out..and we now have to figure out this puzzle...they did amazing job,,whoever build pyramids...there must be some message that has been left by the builders.

Edited by dreamland, 28 December 2012 - 05:10 AM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users