37 replies to this topic

[me-wonders]

This thread is to go with Social Security thread, because both of them are about something a teacher said to his class in 1959.  We were informed that the purpose of education was changed from liberal education to education for a high tech society.  He said we need to be thinking about future where technology eliminated jobs and people had more leisure time.   For awhile it seemed the reverse would happen, as technology might new things to manufacture and market, and therefore many more jobs.  However, this trend for more things and more jobs is reversing, and we need to design an economic system and social organization for a society with a lot of free time.


http://www.xconomy.c...ve-them-back/2/

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

We do that already - it's called "having a second job".

[Mr Right Wing]

me-wonders, on 17 December 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

This thread is to go with Social Security thread, because both of them are about something a teacher said to his class in 1959.  We were informed that the purpose of education was changed from liberal education to education for a high tech society.  He said we need to be thinking about future where technology eliminated jobs and people had more leisure time.   For awhile it seemed the reverse would happen, as technology might new things to manufacture and market, and therefore many more jobs.  However, this trend for more things and more jobs is reversing, and we need to design an economic system and social organization for a society with a lot of free time.

http://www.xconomy.c...ve-them-back/2/

The internet will lead (eventually) to a true democracy and technology will lead (eventually) to an automated society.

The machines will be the slaves and us humans will all be politicians.

[AsteroidX]

Or learn to Homestead. There are no jobs. College master degrees always get the barrista job before me.

[Hilander]

Technology usually takes away jobs from the lower end, factories, and makes a few at the upper end in which you had better have a degree to get.  Unfortunately there are many people with those degrees wanting the same job.

[Sean93]

"Unexpected item in bagging area..."

[me-wonders]

AsteroidX, on 17 December 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

Or learn to Homestead. There are no jobs. College master degrees always get the barrista job before me.

In the 1960'tys we talked of communal living.  Communal living needs to be about more than sharing a garden and kitchen.  What held social groups such as tribes, and then larger but not yet industrial communities,  together, was singing and shared festivals.   I am saying we need to work on our humanness.   People are drawn together because we need each other.  This isn't just about needing each other to build a barn or run an industry, but I am talking on a more emotional level.  I see people walk into the senior center who have mental/emotional issues that prevent them from socializing normally, but just the same, they are there to  be around other people.   Extremely few people would chose live alone on an island, and never have contact with another human being.  In fact, such isolation is known to cause severe mental break down.  Early penitentiaries meant to save souls by isolating people to do penitents and they went insane.  The point is, we need each other, we are born to be social.

Together, people with a little money can buy and develop land to share, but as the hippies discovered, this is not so easy.  Farming is hard work, and you actually have to know something to keep plants alive long enough to become food, and then you have to know how to preserve it.  Someone needs to know how to build before there can be shelter and a communal building for sharing meals.  And people need good people skills so everyone can get a long.   It is sad, but many families can not achieve this, let alone a group of adults.  So I ask you, are we perhaps failing?

We all need jobs so we can have our private homes and don't have to share our lives with others.  But I ask you how might things by different?  Like, if we figure out how government can have revenue from the productivity of machines, and then distribute this money to the people, what might become the focus of our lives?

A White man walked to the top of a mountain with a native American and with his arm passing over the large city below, asked the native American, "What did your people do before all this?"  The native American replied, "We sang a lot".   I have always thought, the ideal life would be a combination between how the native Americans lived and high technology.

[me-wonders]

I goofed again!  That is the wrong link .  It is the second page and here is the first page http://www.xconomy.c...ve-them-back/1/

Look at all the industries that become extinct with advanced technology.   This is besides all the farm jobs lost to machines and the all the mill jobs lost to machines, and what the increase of robotics will do to jobs.

Quote

There’s a fancy word for the technological trend I was writing about in March: ephemeralization. Buckminster Fuller coined the term back in the 1930s to describe the general concept of “doing more with less” by building more human understanding into our machines and factories. Fuller had process innovations like Henry Ford’s assembly lines in mind; he wasn’t thinking about software, which didn’t really exist yet. But the idea still applies to devices like the Apple iPad and the Samsung Galaxy Tab, which replace dozens of other artifacts by recreating their functions on their stupendously versatile touchscreens. If you have a tablet computer and a broadband Internet connection, after all, you don’t really need a laptop, an alarm clock, a watch, a still or video camera, a television, a radio, a phone, an e-book reader, a digital picture frame, an MP3 player, a CD or DVD player, an external hard drive, a game console, a digital audio recorder, a music synthesizer, or a GPS navigation device, not to mention print books, newspapers, or magazines. And that’s just a partial list.

Edited by me-wonders, 18 December 2012 - 12:08 AM.

[AsteroidX]

I wasnt born yet for the hippie generation and its been brushed under the carpet as an episode of American History. Meh. Itleast you got the same welcome home as the vets. (kiddin). I dont foresee large communal living as viable as it was back in that day. Family units must be stronger and not wander to the other side of the country for a job/just because. That is a fundamental breakdown in the family sytem is very prevalent in the majority of the World. They stay closer to each other and in many cases work together to survive. That works for much of the world.

As communities we must be stronger and more reliant on local production for interaction. Neighborhoods are just clusters of single family dwellings and we dont often know our neighbors. This does not help build a strong sense of community nor does it help the general fabric of society. I dont have the answers but I do see the problem for what it is.

Unfortunately we have bigger fish to catch to coin a term. Bigger problems on the horizon will likely further divide America. I hope not but if thats what it is thats what it is.. Well have to overcome this huge devisivness before we can ever move forward.

[Professor T]

Mr Right Wing, on 17 December 2012 - 10:17 PM, said:

The internet will lead (eventually) to a true democracy and technology will lead (eventually) to an automated society.

The machines will be the slaves and us humans will all be politicians.

Ooooo I like this idea..

[Professor T]

me-wonders, on 17 December 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

This thread is to go with Social Security thread, because both of them are about something a teacher said to his class in 1959.  We were informed that the purpose of education was changed from liberal education to education for a high tech society.  He said we need to be thinking about future where technology eliminated jobs and people had more leisure time.   For awhile it seemed the reverse would happen, as technology might new things to manufacture and market, and therefore many more jobs.  However, this trend for more things and more jobs is reversing, and we need to design an economic system and social organization for a society with a lot of free time.


http://www.xconomy.c...ve-them-back/2/

The way I figure it, Capitalism, Corporatism, and Consumerism are all starting to collapse into one big heap.. Don't get me wrong, these big three C's have certainly done wonders and advanced our civilisation to where it is.. But these three C's have seen their time and the time to drop them is fast approaching.. They used to work for us.. But we have become their slaves.. These three big C's no longer serve the people, they serve a small elite who only care about profit and power.  

All these Corporations use Advances in Techology (protected by Copyright) remove jobs, lower wages, you name it, these big C's are out to make a profit and they don't give a damn about society so long as they can make a quick buck.. & the Governments really don't care either.. They may say they do, but its the Big C's that pull the strings.. Unemployment is not going to go away.. It's going to get worse...

When I was working for a big corporation, I was involved in the installation of a lot of robotics and machinery that basically put an end to over 300 jobs across the country.. Here's a very rough estimate of the Maths..

one off cost of Equiptment 13.2 million.
300 jobs lost @ 45,000.00 PA = Annual wage saving of 13.5 million. (actually i think it was more like 500 jobs & 2 factories, but can't find the darn numbers)

Did the cost of our products go down to reflect these savings?? nope it went up, damn near doubled thanks to some clever marketing.

There seriously needs to be a social and economic restrucuring when this kind of thing is going on.. It's foolish to carry on denying the fact that These corporations are raking it in and creating false scarcity in goods and servises just so that they can charge more to customers who cant afford it because Mr Robot took their Jobs and they are Unemployed.. It's foolish to deny that this is happening. The system has been broken by greed and money..

[aztek]

it has been happening since invention of steam power.

[me-wonders]

AsteroidX, on 18 December 2012 - 12:33 AM, said:

I wasnt born yet for the hippie generation and its been brushed under the carpet as an episode of American History. Meh. Itleast you got the same welcome home as the vets. (kiddin). I dont foresee large communal living as viable as it was back in that day. Family units must be stronger and not wander to the other side of the country for a job/just because. That is a fundamental breakdown in the family sytem is very prevalent in the majority of the World. They stay closer to each other and in many cases work together to survive. That works for much of the world.

As communities we must be stronger and more reliant on local production for interaction. Neighborhoods are just clusters of single family dwellings and we dont often know our neighbors. This does not help build a strong sense of community nor does it help the general fabric of society. I dont have the answers but I do see the problem for what it is.

Unfortunately we have bigger fish to catch to coin a term. Bigger problems on the horizon will likely further divide America. I hope not but if thats what it is thats what it is.. Well have to overcome this huge devisivness before we can ever move forward.

So glad to read your thoughts on that, because this is something we have to seriously discuss.  I live next to the fair grounds and the Saturday Market (crafters) have moved in the largest building for the cold wet season, and this place is packed everyday on the weekends.  I remember when the Saturday Market was struggling to survive and established businesses were trying to force it out with laws preventing it.  I am thrilled to see that has become a popular and strong social movement, supporting crafters and people who still socialize around music and food.  Hum, I had not looked at this carefully before, but now feel a stab of pain, realizing the direction our capitalism has taken us.  It was just awful to wear anything home made for awhile.  Unlike the hippie days when the more something was handmade the better!   Retail stores do not invite independent crafters, but only mass industry.  Can we think on this for a moment?

Traditionally all cultures were created with some kind of religion, music and festivals.  Democracy has the same function when it is better understood and this requires literacy in Greek and Roman classics, which we no longer have.  However, we can change that, by educating ourselves and every chance we get, telling others this education is important.  Then return to nature.  Christianity has a kind of paradoxical relationship with nature, too often associating it with evil.  Other cultures embarrassed nature.  Our holidays are Christianized pagan celebrations, and I think we would be healthier if we returned to them, and nature.  Yipes! tomorrow is the 21.   The day of winter solstice.   I will be celebrating this with someone who has the same feelings about nature and spiritual matters as I do.  Anyway, here we are talking culture, and  think of all the things to make and sale related to holidays.  Festivals connected to nature can unite people and can create a bit of an economy, selling special breads, clothing, tokens of the special day.  This ties us to mother earth and each other.

Let me make this clear.   I fully believe we must recreate our culture.  Materialism is not essential to having a good life.  Appreciating life and good human relationships is essential to life.

Edited by me-wonders, 20 December 2012 - 05:47 PM.

[me-wonders]

aztek, on 18 December 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

it has been happening since invention of steam power.

Excuse me, but are you suggesting we should ignore what is happening because it has been happening since the beginning of the industrial age?  Say, global warming raises the tides and puts salt water into the fresh water further up stream and becomes an increasing agricultural problem, is it not obvious this trend can not tolerated, because ultimately it is destructive?   Most of life is about balance, and always too much of a good thing can be bad.

I love technology and it is wonderful robotics can free us from dangerous and tedious labor.  Making humans extensions of machines, as was so in the beginning of the industrial revolution, was not all good.  It was dehumanizing and that is bad for individuals and families.  Can we ponder this for a moment?  At first families worked together, but as the industrial age advanced, more and more laws restricted what children and women could do, until basically only men worked, dividing the family excessively between women's work and men's work, creating separate realities for man and women.  Autocratic industry lead to autocratic families and socializing children to be depend authority, not a good thing for humans, and not as the elite socialized their children for leadership.  We now say an autocratic family is dysfunctional, while at the same time we are so lacking in our understanding of leadership, our democracy is deteriorating into anarchy, and confusion about what has gone wrong.  But if we can work our way through this, giving people a decent standard of living and more leisure time, and then return to family and community values, we could have a new golden age.

I talk because I believe we have the potential to have a much better life than in the past.  But as individuals sometimes need psychoanalysis to work through their problems, modern civilizations need psychoanalysis, to become aware of their past decisions and therefore, the need to change some of them.  We must be aware of how technology is changing us, and with awareness take control of that change.  

[me-wonders]

Professor T, on 18 December 2012 - 07:30 AM, said:

The way I figure it, Capitalism, Corporatism, and Consumerism are all starting to collapse into one big heap.. Don't get me wrong, these big three C's have certainly done wonders and advanced our civilisation to where it is.. But these three C's have seen their time and the time to drop them is fast approaching.. They used to work for us.. But we have become their slaves.. These three big C's no longer serve the people, they serve a small elite who only care about profit and power.  

All these Corporations use Advances in Techology (protected by Copyright) remove jobs, lower wages, you name it, these big C's are out to make a profit and they don't give a damn about society so long as they can make a quick buck.. & the Governments really don't care either.. They may say they do, but its the Big C's that pull the strings.. Unemployment is not going to go away.. It's going to get worse...

When I was working for a big corporation, I was involved in the installation of a lot of robotics and machinery that basically put an end to over 300 jobs across the country.. Here's a very rough estimate of the Maths..

one off cost of Equiptment 13.2 million.
300 jobs lost @ 45,000.00 PA = Annual wage saving of 13.5 million. (actually i think it was more like 500 jobs & 2 factories, but can't find the darn numbers)

Did the cost of our products go down to reflect these savings?? nope it went up, damn near doubled thanks to some clever marketing.

There seriously needs to be a social and economic restrucuring when this kind of thing is going on.. It's foolish to carry on denying the fact that These corporations are raking it in and creating false scarcity in goods and servises just so that they can charge more to customers who cant afford it because Mr Robot took their Jobs and they are Unemployed.. It's foolish to deny that this is happening. The system has been broken by greed and money..

  thank you for your informed post, I would to say more, but I have a two year on my lap demanding attention.  Carry one, say more.