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Sitchin's Folly: Graffiti in the Pyramid


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#16    kmt_sesh

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 11:17 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 09 January 2010 - 03:49 PM, said:

Careful kmt... bad tongues are saying they've seen Sitchin shopping for a voodoo doll mumbling something about getting some hair at a Chicago museum...

As ever, nice work.

Thanks, questionmark. As for Sitchin and his voodoo doll, he's got quite a fight coming if he thinks he'll get the better of me. I don't have a lot of hair to begin with and I will damn well defend what I have!

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#17    SilkRoad

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 05:39 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 09 January 2010 - 06:35 AM, said:

I realize that a couple of other folks have already provided replies to your post, but because I initiated this thread I'd like to answer, too.



As cladking and I were discussing, this doubt about the validity of the graffiti exists on the internet. Of course, you will also find it in books such as the one I've been critiquing, written by fringe authors. I regard neither source as reliable. So, yes, many people do cast doubt on the authenticity of the graffiti, but of those whom I've encountered on the Web and in print, none appear to possess the requisite training and education to supply a proper examination of the situation. I do believe I provided an adequate defense of orthodoxy in my OP, at the same time demonstrating point by point how Sitchin's approach is flawed.

Colonel Vyse was not a scholar. He was not an Egyptologist, such as it was in the mid-nineteenth century. Sitchin's description of him is, I think, fair: an antiquarian. As with many Westerners of the time, he was in Egypt for the excitement of discovery. Although I find his use of dynamite and gunpowder reckless and deplorable, no other expedition or discovery of his in Egypt would lead one to suspect in any way that he was duplicitous or dishonest. Just reckless. As I see it, Sitchin has singly failed to uphold his charge that Vyse and Hill forged the graffiti. The weight of evidence is fully on the authenticity of the graffiti.

As the Czech Egyptologist Miroslav Verner has written (1997: 456):



Please note that in the first table of my OP, I provided examples not only of Khufu's cartouche and Horus name but also examples of the glyphs spelling the names of work teams Verner mentions. As I emphasized in the OP, scholars of the day did not know what to make of these other glyphs because their knowledge of glyphs at that time was still very much nascent. In other words, this was information even the leading experts of the day did not possess, so of course neither Vyse nor Hill could have, either.

And there is also the damning fact, as I and others have mentioned, that some of the graffiti extends down into faces of masonry where no human hand could reach. The graffiti had to have been painted onto these surfaces prior to the stones' final placement in the relieving chambers. Graham Hancock himself bowed to this fact. It cannot be dismissed.



As I've stated many times at UM, no pyramid contained any formal interior decoration plan until that of Unis' at the end of Dynasty 5. It was only in late Dynasty 5 that royal and private tombs began consistently to be liberally ornamented with reliefs and inscriptions. Until the time of Unis, pyramids were not inscribed but their attendant temples were--and lavishly so. Khufu's temples were no exception, although they're badly ruined. The graffiti was found in spaces that were supposed to be permanently concealed because they were not part of any of the ritual constructs of the monument--and it's not as though the king wished his pyramid to be smeared with graffiti. Well, okay, it is today, with the graffiti of a couple of centuries of tourists, but you get my meaning. However, the lack of a formal decoration plan on a Dynasty 4 royal tomb cannot stand as any sort of evidence for fringe theory.

One thing I did not mention in my OP but will here is the fact that the Meidum pyramid of Sneferu also bears builders' graffiti. The Great Pyramid is hardly unique in that respect. I've never researched the nature of the graffiti at Meidum so I tend not to bring it up much, but it's there as an example of a greater pattern.



I don't mind your dissenting opinion. That's why this forum exists, and I was hoping you would weigh in. I hope others who favor fringe theories will, too. All I ask is that we all try to keep everything level headed and civil. ;)
I am new to this site and this is my first attempt at getting in on a conversation. I have read some on all points made to that end.

My thought is this,
Sometime in the past I read that this Kufu(sp.) was actually REPAIRING this old Pyramid. If that is possible then grafitti could have been written at that time.
As for Hawass, he is so gunhoe about Egypt belonging to Egypt I think he would do most anthing to prove HIS BELIEF. Including STAGING proof of his belief. Just a thought.


#18    Oniomancer

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 07:11 PM

View Postzoser, on 08 January 2010 - 06:01 PM, said:

Forgive me if I am wrong here but I thought that there were a significant number of people who cast doubt on the authenticity of the graffiti?
Indeed there are, all of whom use pretty much the exact same arguments as sitchin. A mistaken view voiced by a multitude does not become less mistaken in the telling. Kmt's statements then address them as a body.

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I personally without really looking too hard have found several sources casting doubt on it, and by no means do they all have a vested interest.  There is just doubt period, based in the most part on the ambition and poor character integrity of Vysse himself.

Doubt there has always been and that doubt will remain.  Why isn't Khufu's cartouche scattered all over the biggest and most impressive building in the history of the human race?  Why was it hidden in an obscure place?
When Tutankhamon's tomb was opened, his actual sarcophagus found was inclosed in an inscribed and decorated shrine of gilt wood. It has been suggested that the walls of the GP burial chambers may have been fitted in similar fashion and there is some evidence to support this. Unas' tomb appears to've even been carved to resemble such an array. Were such panels installed, they would've been a sure target for tombrobbers.

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#19    questionmark

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 09:49 PM

View PostSilkRoad, on 10 January 2010 - 05:39 PM, said:

I am new to this site and this is my first attempt at getting in on a conversation. I have read some on all points made to that end.

My thought is this,
Sometime in the past I read that this Kufu(sp.) was actually REPAIRING this old Pyramid. If that is possible then grafitti could have been written at that time.
As for Hawass, he is so gunhoe about Egypt belonging to Egypt I think he would do most anthing to prove HIS BELIEF. Including STAGING proof of his belief. Just a thought.

See, there are several things you have to understand. If Hawass makes a statement he has to explain the methodology and evidence that led him there. All you have to do is check the sources and the evidence. Sitchin takes some fragments, tells you that he came to a conclusion and explains nothing.

So, who sounds slightly more "cerdible"? the one that pompously announces something backed by a known methodology and evidence or the one that gives you an explanation "par ordre de mufti"?

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#20    kmt_sesh

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Posted 10 January 2010 - 10:51 PM

View PostSilkRoad, on 10 January 2010 - 05:39 PM, said:

I am new to this site and this is my first attempt at getting in on a conversation. I have read some on all points made to that end.

My thought is this,
Sometime in the past I read that this Kufu(sp.) was actually REPAIRING this old Pyramid. If that is possible then grafitti could have been written at that time.
As for Hawass, he is so gunhoe about Egypt belonging to Egypt I think he would do most anthing to prove HIS BELIEF. Including STAGING proof of his belief. Just a thought.

Welcome, SilkRoad, and thanks for joining in. :)

In his book The Stairway to Heaven Sitchin brings up the issue over Khufu's repairing of the Giza monuments (Chapter 13). The basis for his argument is an ancient stela commonly referred to as the Inventory Stela. While this inscribed tablet does not specifically state that Khufu did anything with the Great Pyramid itself, it speaks of repairs Khufu made to neighboring monuments such as the Temple of Isis and the Sphinx. There is no extant ancient Egyptian document or inscription of any kind of which I'm aware in which Khufu is specifically stated to have repaired the Great Pyramid.

In November I initiated another thread, found here, to address the arguments Sitchin brings to the table regarding the Inventory Stela. The gist of it is, this stela does not date to Dynasty 4 and the time of Khufu but to around Dynasty 26--some 1,800 years after the time of Khufu. Sitchin makes the same obvious mistake as other fringe writers in believing this little inscribed monument is actually an historical document relevant to Dynasty 4. It most certainly is not. If you're interested you can read my OP in the above link for my full refutation of Sitchin's argument, where I believe, with all modesty intended, that I was able to establish why his argument is bunkum.

Bear in mind that the massive stones on which the graffiti was written within the relieving chambers are all weight bearing and were all sealed at the time of the pyramid's construction. There is no evidence that the chambers had ever been entered before the time of Davison and Vyse, and there was no way anyone had access to them until then.

As for Hawass, you would have to present proof that he has staged anything at all. His "belief" is fully supported by the weight of more than two centuries of solid scholarship, and that belief--more correctly phrased, the orthodox position--has never even bent slightly dented by fringe arguments, much less upset. I am not exactly crazy about Hawass myself, and disagree with some of the professional theories he has posited, but that's one thing. Accusing him of falsifying evidence is entirely unfounded, in my opinion.

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#21    TheSearcher

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 06:50 AM

View PostSilkRoad, on 10 January 2010 - 05:39 PM, said:

I am new to this site and this is my first attempt at getting in on a conversation. I have read some on all points made to that end.

My thought is this,
Sometime in the past I read that this Kufu(sp.) was actually REPAIRING this old Pyramid. If that is possible then grafitti could have been written at that time.
As for Hawass, he is so gunhoe about Egypt belonging to Egypt I think he would do most anthing to prove HIS BELIEF. Including STAGING proof of his belief. Just a thought.

That would only work if they actually take apart the pyramid and then rebuild it, since the graffitti were found on stones on the inside. IF you think that building a pyramid is a lot of work, I would be hard pressed to imagine what it would be like to take it apart, repair what is needed and rebuild it.

As to Hawass, I've said it before, he may be a media wh*re, but he does keep his methodology intact.

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#22    Harte

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 01:14 PM

Kmt_sesh,

Good work.  Now get ready to say it over and over again as this thread ages, since as we both know, "true believers" will ignore what you've said and even pretend you never said it!

Harte

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#23    kmt_sesh

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 03:54 PM

View PostHarte, on 11 January 2010 - 01:14 PM, said:

Kmt_sesh,

Good work.  Now get ready to say it over and over again as this thread ages, since as we both know, "true believers" will ignore what you've said and even pretend you never said it!

Harte

Oh, Harte, I am painfully aware of that fact. I did get tired of repeating myself, so Sitchin's book gave me an excuse to go into detail about why the idea is so ludicrous in the first place. I suspect that pretty much all of this doubt over the authenticity of the graffiti stems ultimately from The Stairway to Heaven, which was first published some thirty years ago, so Sitchin is guilty of this foolish argument's very long shelf life--as others have said in this thread, it's been repeated ad nauseam on the internet. Garbage in, garbage out.

At least I got this off my chest. Call it intellectual venting. And if nothing else, I can always refer people back to this thread. :rolleyes:

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#24    Harte

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 05:37 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 11 January 2010 - 03:54 PM, said:

Oh, Harte, I am painfully aware of that fact. I did get tired of repeating myself, so Sitchin's book gave me an excuse to go into detail about why the idea is so ludicrous in the first place. I suspect that pretty much all of this doubt over the authenticity of the graffiti stems ultimately from The Stairway to Heaven, which was first published some thirty years ago, so Sitchin is guilty of this foolish argument's very long shelf life--as others have said in this thread, it's been repeated ad nauseam on the internet. Garbage in, garbage out.

At least I got this off my chest. Call it intellectual venting. And if nothing else, I can always refer people back to this thread. :rolleyes:
A word of advice:

Save a direct link to this post in your favorites file.  Keeps you from having to search for it this summer when it comes up again.

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#25    SlimJim22

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 05:43 PM

Hey,
was wondering what is the official line on the hieroglyphs resembling aerial craft at Abydos. I guess you'll all tell me they are modern forgeries but if they were genuine wouldn't that lend weight to the idea that all is connected and we have advanced even stellar origins?

http://www.hallofthe...ery-abydos.html

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#26    ShadowSot

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 06:00 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 11 January 2010 - 05:43 PM, said:

Hey,
was wondering what is the official line on the hieroglyphs resembling aerial craft at Abydos. I guess you'll all tell me they are modern forgeries but if they were genuine wouldn't that lend weight to the idea that all is connected and we have advanced even stellar origins?

http://www.hallofthe...ery-abydos.html

http://www.catchpenny.org/abydos.html

What some see as a helicopter, is the result of one glyph being put in over another.

Quote


Save a direct link to this post in your favorites file. Keeps you from having to search for it this summer when it comes up again.
And again and again and again...

Edited by ShadowSot, 11 January 2010 - 06:00 PM.

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#27    TheSearcher

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 06:37 AM

View PostHarte, on 11 January 2010 - 05:37 PM, said:

A word of advice:

Save a direct link to this post in your favorites file.  Keeps you from having to search for it this summer when it comes up again.

Harte

Good advice right there. Actually you should copy it to a document files as well, so you have a backup you can easely copy and paste... again and again and again  :devil:

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#28    kmt_sesh

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 02:04 AM

View PostSlimJim22, on 11 January 2010 - 05:43 PM, said:

Hey,
was wondering what is the official line on the hieroglyphs resembling aerial craft at Abydos. I guess you'll all tell me they are modern forgeries but if they were genuine wouldn't that lend weight to the idea that all is connected and we have advanced even stellar origins?

http://www.hallofthe...ery-abydos.html

ShadowSot's web page explains it as well as I could've. The temple was originally commissioned and inscribed by Seti I, second king of Dynasty 19, but was not completely finished when he died. One of the first prjects on which his son and successor, Ramesses II, embarked upon reaching the throne was the completion of this temple at Abydos. Along the way Ramesses II sprinkled inscriptions honoring himself here and there. Palimpsests such as this one are extremely common in pharaonic history, as each king strove to make a name for himself. It's not surprising that Ramesses II did this, even though the temple belonged to his father. He not only commissioned a lot of monuments but usurped plenty of them, too. This is why Egyptologists like to call Ramesses II "the chisler." Sounds like a character from a Batman movie.

The web page brings up a number of good points, one of which is the unlikely scenario that the Egyptians carved a helicopter and other aircraft only here and nowhere else. That is simply not how inscriptions worked. They were not just a hodgepodge of images but a cohesive unit of glyphs and images stating something in specific terms. This temple at Abydos has been exhaustively studied since the late nineteenth century and is very well understood. It was built to honor Osiris and to unite Osiris and Seti I as one entity--not to show caricatures of flying machines. :)  

View PostTheSearcher, on 12 January 2010 - 06:37 AM, said:

Good advice right there. Actually you should copy it to a document files as well, so you have a backup you can easely copy and paste... again and again and again  :devil:

Good advice. I have done exactly that. ;)

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#29    Scott Creighton

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 07:58 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 09 January 2010 - 06:35 AM, said:

Colonel Vyse was not a scholar. He was not an Egyptologist, such as it was in the mid-nineteenth century. Sitchin's description of him is, I think, fair: an antiquarian. As with many Westerners of the time, he was in Egypt for the excitement of discovery. Although I find his use of dynamite and gunpowder reckless and deplorable, no other expedition or discovery of his in Egypt would lead one to suspect in any way that he was duplicitous or dishonest

SC: We don't have to look to Egypt to discover Howard-Vyse's dishonesty - it started much closer to home:

Note: Many of the ' f ' letters should be read as an ' s ' (Old English):

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SC: "...guilty of bribery and corruption and corrupt practices...."  Doesn't smell too nice, does it?

The Vyse's literally came from nowhere in the Beverley constituency. See here:

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This was a John Wharton safe seat. Then daddy Vyse makes an appearance on the scene (in the favour of the Duke of Cumberland). Doesn't win outright (although still elected as second candidate). But my oh my - look at Howard-Vyse's (the son's) vote - first time ever that anyone got into the thousands in this seat and, as such, was able to dislodge Wharton from first place (Wharton elected as second candidate). A vote like that for Howard-Vyse (which was never repeated by anyone before or after) totally reeks of impropriety and totally smacks of Howard-Vyse going in with all 'gifts' blazing to make sure he got the outcome he desired; to make sure that, where daddy had failed in securing first spot, Howard-Vyse would succeed. Or, Howard-Vyse wanted to make sure he didn't lose daddy's hard bought seat - the shame of it! No wonder Mr Staple complained to the House of Commons about corrupt practices of Howard-Vyse. And after Howard-Vyse departs Beverley for pastures new (the Honiton constituency), the seat returns to Wharton in first position on a much reduced winning vote. As for the Beverley constituency itself:

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For much of the borough's history, elections in Beverley were notorious for their corruption. In 1727, one of the victorious candidates was unseated on petition, his agents were imprisoned and Parliament passed a new Bribery Act as a result. Between 1857 and 1868 six petitions were lodged against election results, of which three succeeded in voiding the election and unseating one or more of the victors. After the 1868 election, the writ for the borough was suspended and a Royal Commission appointed to inquire into the conduct of elections in Beverley; when it reported that it had found proof of extensive bribery, an Act of Parliament was passed permanently depriving Beverley of the right to return Members of Parliament, abolishing the constituency and incorporating it within the East Riding constituency.

The novelist Anthony Trollope was one of the defeated candidates in the final corrupt election for which Beverley was disfranchised. He drew on his experience directly for his description of the Percycross election in his novel Ralph the Heir, and also told the story in his Autobiography. He found that corruption was taken for granted and that the price of a vote was between 15 shillings and £1. - Source.

SC: And after Beverley, Howard-Vyse is parachuted into the Honiton seat completely unopposed.

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Long before the general election of 1812 Cavendish Bradshaw, who went over to government on the establishment of the Regency, had decided that he could not afford another election for Honiton. Just after the dissolution Canning, who was staying with his friend Lord Boringdon at Saltram in Devon, received an overture from Honiton, probably through Flood, and was asked to nominate a friend who, he was assured, ‘might be returned for an expense of between £3,000 and £4,000’. He recommended George Abercrombie Robinson, a director of the East India Company, who came in unopposed for ‘not more than £1,500’— so Canning heard— along with Howard Vyse, a ministerialist, whose father was in the confidence of the Duke of Cumberland. The young radical Samuel Colleton Graves, invited to contest Honiton, had allowed himself to be waylaid at Taunton.

SC: "...allowed himself to be waylaid at Taunton"? Perhaps Mr Graves had been gratefully plied with copious amounts of good Taunton cider? In any case, the two seats in Honiton went unopposed. And when we consider the history of the Honiton seat, why should we not be surprised to find this:

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Honiton had a reputation for shameless venality .... Source

SC: Howard-Vyse certainly knew what seats to target. His political aspirations totally reek -- doing precisely what he needed to do to ensure he got the outcome he desired. And where have we seen/heard that before?

Howard-Vyse was as corrupt as they come. The man has zero credibility and is even less a credible witness as far as his alleged discoveries in the Great Pyramid are concerned.

SC

Edited by Scott Creighton, 06 April 2013 - 08:10 PM.

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#30    kmt_sesh

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 05:00 AM

Very interesting stuff, Scott. I didn't know any of this about Vyse's history, but in a sense I'm not surprised. Anyone who would "investigate" an historical site with the use of blasting powder is not a credible person in the first place, in my opinion. In a disturbing way this reminds me an awful lot of politics in my own Chicago and the state of Illinois, which seems to send its fair share of politicians to prison.

I've already detailed my argument in previous posts so there's no sense in repeating it now, but the gist of it is, Vyse's questionable character does not mean he and/or his accomplice fabricated the graffiti in the relieving chambers. All they did was discover and draw it. Perhaps the most important thing to bear in mind is that Vyse would not have possessed the requisite linguistic abilities to have forged the graffiti, considering hieroglyphs had been decoded only fifteen years previous. Most legitimate historians contemporary to Vyse who viewed the graffiti did not even know how to translate it properly. Academia's ability to translate Egyptian scripts was still literally in its infancy, and Vyse was neither a linguist nor an historian—but just a guy running around blowing things up.

In other words, Vyse was just the very explosive tool which revealed the graffiti to the world. It would be years before the stuff could be properly translated.

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