11638 replies to this topic

[The Puzzler]

Otharus, on 02 September 2011 - 07:47 AM, said:

Sorry Abe, I did not mean to offend you. I may have misunderstood your post due to info-overload (not your post only).

What I didn't understand is KÁD = simple house (dutch: kot, keet), as KÁD in OLB clearly means quay or coast (dutch: kade).

But it is possible that a tribe that was known as Kadhemers (originally meaning coast-dwellers or land-lubbers), moved to the Austria area, and that the meaning of their name changed over time.

I very much appreciate your posts about tracing the tribes/ peoples as mentioned in OLB in later sources.

I'm not sure why KAD in OLB clearly means quay or coast - KADIK is the word used I know, unless you know of another reference to a KAD, I could have missed it.

KAD imo means what Abe said, I have no idea of Dutch but he obviously has this word pinned as Dutch for house, home - to me they are people who stay HOME.

[Otharus]

The Puzzler, on 02 September 2011 - 02:08 PM, said:

I'm not sure why KAD in OLB clearly means quay or coast

I will help you...

p.51
SKÉNLAND WAS SUNNICH BIFOLKATH, ÀND ANDA ÀFTER-KÁD THÀT SUNNICHSTE FON AL
p.57
ALSA ALINGA THÉRE KÁD FORTH FARANDE KÉMON HJA TO THÉRE FOLKPLANTING KÁDIK
p.58
NÉF TÜNIS FOR ALLINGGEN THÉRE KÁD AL THRVCH THJU PORTE THÉRE MIDDELSÉ
p.58
THA TO THA LESTA KÉMON HJA AN TO PHONISIVS KÁD
p.58
NÉI BI THÉRE KÁD FVNDON HJA EN ÉLAND MITH TWAM DIAPA SLINKA

... etcetera

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 02 September 2011 - 12:42 PM, said:

Do you have a source for that translation of 'Britne'?

My source is the OLB itself:

p.50
VSA WÉIBRITNE VRDON VRDELGEN JEFTA HJA WRDON HJARA HARLINGA
p.157
THA TWISLÁNDAR THÀT SIND BANNANE ÀND WÉI BRITNE FRYASBERN
p.164
BI WESTA PANG.AB THÉR SIND THA ÍRA JEFTHA WRANGA. THA GEDROSTNE JEFTHA BRITNE. AND THA ORJETTEN JEFTHA VRJETNE
p.198
VR-A ÉNE HELTE SEND HJA ÚT KÀLTANAFOLGAR, VR-ET ÔRA DÉL ÚT BRITNE ÀND BANNANE

... etcetera

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 02 September 2011 - 01:11 PM, said:

My problem is that I think it is very unlikely that people living in coastal areas would not go out onto the sea.

For that one needs good ships, made of strong wood (oak!), and sails (hemp?).
And some tribes were better at that than others.
The 'Juttar' also remained (mostly?) ashore.
They can still live from fish, agriculture and trade.

Quote

Originally Katham was an independent town. The place name indicates a piece of land outside a dike, Ham, and belonging to someone called Kat or Katte. But Kat may also refer to a quay located along the Zuiderzee, or a reference to the nearby Katwoude.

Nice find, I didn't know that place.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 02 September 2011 - 03:30 PM, said:

My source is the OLB itself:

p.50
VSA WÉIBRITNE VRDON VRDELGEN JEFTA HJA WRDON HJARA HARLINGA
p.157
THA TWISLÁNDAR THÀT SIND BANNANE ÀND WÉI BRITNE FRYASBERN
p.164
BI WESTA PANG.AB THÉR SIND THA ÍRA JEFTHA WRANGA. THA GEDROSTNE JEFTHA BRITNE. AND THA ORJETTEN JEFTHA VRJETNE
p.198
VR-A ÉNE HELTE SEND HJA ÚT KÀLTANAFOLGAR, VR-ET ÔRA DÉL ÚT BRITNE ÀND BANNANE

... etcetera

OK, I actually meant an other source than the OLB itself.

But how would you translate this part:


A Brittannja wêron rju fêlo manna, tha lith wiva, thâ tha Gola that wiston, lêton hja alwêis manghêrtne skâka aend thessa javon hja tha Britne vmb nawet.

In Britain there were plenty of men, but few women. When the Golen knew this, they carried off girls everywhere and gave them to the Britons for nothing.

Or this:

An-t north-ende fon Britanja thaet fvl mith hâga bergum is, thêr sit en Skots folk, vr-et mâradêl ût Fryas blod sproten, vr-a êne helte send hja ût Kaeltanafolgar, vr-et ôra dêl ût Britne aend bannane, thêr by grâdnm mith tyd fon-ût-a tinlônum thêr hinna fljuchte.

In the north part of Britain which is full with high mountains, there exists a Scotch people—the most of them spring from Frya’s blood—some of them are descended from the followers of Keltana, and, for the rest, from Britons and fugitives who gradually, in the course of time, took refuge there from the tin mines.

It appears the "Britne" as name does indeed point to the Britons...


.

Edited by Abramelin, 02 September 2011 - 03:57 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Otharus, on 02 September 2011 - 03:25 PM, said:

I will help you...

p.51
SKÉNLAND WAS SUNNICH BIFOLKATH, ÀND ANDA ÀFTER-KÁD THÀT SUNNICHSTE FON AL
p.57
ALSA ALINGA THÉRE KÁD FORTH FARANDE KÉMON HJA TO THÉRE FOLKPLANTING KÁDIK
p.58
NÉF TÜNIS FOR ALLINGGEN THÉRE KÁD AL THRVCH THJU PORTE THÉRE MIDDELSÉ
p.58
THA TO THA LESTA KÉMON HJA AN TO PHONISIVS KÁD
p.58
NÉI BI THÉRE KÁD FVNDON HJA EN ÉLAND MITH TWAM DIAPA SLINKA

... etcetera

Got it.

Thus coasting along, he at length arrived at the colony of Kadik (Cadiz), so called because it was built with a stone quay.

Kâd-hêmar hêten,

What's hemar? Avoider?

What about heten?

I get this: like ethnicity? Saxmanna heton - Saxon heritage?


hêth-en 16, hêth-in, afries., Adj.: nhd. heidnisch; ne. heathen (Adj.); Vw.: s.
-man-n; Hw.: vgl. got. *haiþns, an. heiOEinn, ae. hÚþen (1), as. hêthin, ahd. heidan
(1); Q.: R, E, H, W, AA 167; I.: Lw. lat. ethnicus; E.: germ. *haiþna-, *haiþnaz,
*haiþina-, *haiþinaz, Adj., heidnisch; vgl. gr. šqne (ethne), N. Pl., Völker?; s. idg.
*kaito-, Sb., Wald, Wildnis, Pokorny 521?; W.: nfries. heydin, Adj., heidnisch; L.:
Hh 43b, Rh 812b, AA 167
hêth-en-a 4, afries., sw. M. (n): nhd. Heide (M.); ne. heathen (M.); ÜG.: lat.
gentÆlis K 10; Q.: W, K 10; I.: Lw. lat. ethnicus; E.: s. hêth-en; L.: Hh 43b, Rh
813a
hêth-en-man-n 1, hêth-en-mon-n, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Heide (M.); ne. heathen
(M.); E.: s. hêth-en, man-n; L.: Hh 43b, Rh 813a

Apparently hemar in Hebrew is asphalt or kid seems to be coming up in Norse.

[Abramelin]

Kâd-hêmar ...

The simplest explanation would be 'people who have their HOME (HEM) on the QUAY (= KAD)'. And the AR part is only a suffix for a multiple.

But I will not easily forget what I found out about the KADHUM/CADHUM/CADHEIM in Switserland, Tirol and southern Germany..

.

Edited by Abramelin, 02 September 2011 - 04:05 PM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 02 September 2011 - 01:54 PM, said:

I'm kinda pondering that...

Like where are these 'Britons'? Or Britne as Otharus says, so maybe just outcasts..

I'm wondering why they were arming themselves against the Britons if they were in the British Isles.

---Britain was the land of the exiles, who with the help of their Burgtmaagd had gone away to save their lives; but in order that they might not come back they were tattooed with a B on the forehead, the banished with a red dye, the other criminals with blue.

BANISHED - didn't one of you give Britne a banished etymology?

Otharus said 'outcasts' that's right, one's who are 'bought away' - so that name seems to make perfect sense to me.

If so, that could be the word meaning imo as it fits the descriptive sentence given.

These Britne in Britain were probably escaping the island and were roaming around Northern Germany, who really knows..?

I don't think it's very likely that these 'outcasts' would return from Britain and travel deep into Germany to fight with the Saxons (they would have to first pass the other tribes mentioned in the OLB).

But maybe they follwed the same tactic as on D-Day...

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 02 September 2011 - 03:51 PM, said:

Kâd-hêmar hêten,

What's hemar? Avoider?

What about heten?

I get this: like ethnicity? Saxmanna heton - Saxon heritage?


hêth-en 16, hêth-in, afries., Adj.: nhd. heidnisch; ne. heathen (Adj.); Vw.: s.
-man-n; Hw.: vgl. got. *haiþns, an. heiOEinn, ae. hÚþen (1), as. hêthin, ahd. heidan
(1); Q.: R, E, H, W, AA 167; I.: Lw. lat. ethnicus; E.: germ. *haiþna-, *haiþnaz,
*haiþina-, *haiþinaz, Adj., heidnisch; vgl. gr. šqne (ethne), N. Pl., Völker?; s. idg.
*kaito-, Sb., Wald, Wildnis, Pokorny 521?; W.: nfries. heydin, Adj., heidnisch; L.:
Hh 43b, Rh 812b, AA 167
hêth-en-a 4, afries., sw. M. (n): nhd. Heide (M.); ne. heathen (M.); ÜG.: lat.
gentÆlis K 10; Q.: W, K 10; I.: Lw. lat. ethnicus; E.: s. hêth-en; L.: Hh 43b, Rh
813a
hêth-en-man-n 1, hêth-en-mon-n, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Heide (M.); ne. heathen
(M.); E.: s. hêth-en, man-n; L.: Hh 43b, Rh 813a

Apparently hemar in Hebrew is asphalt or kid seems to be coming up in Norse.

"heten" means nothing but "is being called, is named".

"Ik heet X" = I am called X, or, My name is X
"Jij heet Y"  = You are called Y, or, Your name is Y
"Wij heten CC" = We are called CC, or, Our name is CC
"Zij heten FF" = They are called FF, or, Their name is FF.

A bit old fashioned Dutch: "Zij zijn Edammers geheten" = They are called Edammers.

I hope you noticed the difference between "heten" and "hethen", -t- and -th- .

The OLB even has a separate character for -th- .

.

Edited by Abramelin, 02 September 2011 - 05:32 PM.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 02 September 2011 - 03:43 PM, said:

But how would you translate this part:

A Brittannja wêron ...
In Britain there were ...

Or this:

An-t north-ende fon Britanja ...
In the north part of Britain ...

It appears the "Britne" as name does indeed point to the Britons...

OLB p.48, line 8:

BRITTANIA THAT WAS THAT LAND THÉRA BANNALINGA.
THÉR MITH HULPE HJARAR BURCHFAM WÉI BRITH WÉRON
VMBE HIRA LIF TO BIHALDANA

Brittania that was the land of the exiles,
that were brought away with help of their Burchfam,
to save their life

So (using common sense) first there was the word:
(WÉI) BRIT(H) = brought (away)

then the people:
BRITNE = outcasts, exiles

and then the land that was named because of these people:
BRITTANIA (various spellings) = Britain

(which does not mean that all BRITNE lived only in BRITTANIA)

... and ofcourse there is Bretagne in France (called "Brittany" in English).

Edited by Otharus, 02 September 2011 - 06:33 PM.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 02 September 2011 - 06:31 PM, said:

OLB p.48, line 8:

BRITTANIA THAT WAS THAT LAND THÉRA BANNALINGA.
THÉR MITH HULPE HJARAR BURCHFAM WÉI BRITH WÉRON
VMBE HIRA LIF TO BIHALDANA

Brittania that was the land of the exiles,
that were brought away with help of their Burchfam,
to save their life

So (using common sense) first there was the word:
(WÉI) BRIT(H) = brought (away)

then the people:
BRITNE = outcasts, exiles

and then the land that was named because of these people:
BRITTANIA (various spellings) = Britain

(which does not mean that all BRITNE lived only in BRITTANIA)

... and ofcourse there is Bretagne in France (called "Brittany" in English).

I do not disagree with the literal meaning of 'britne' (outcasts, exiles), but in the pieces of texts I quoted from the OLB it is clear for me that Britons are meant.

A Brittannja wêron rju fêlo manna, tha lith wiva, thâ tha Gola that wiston, lêton hja alwêis manghêrtne skâka aend thessa javon hja tha Britne vmb nawet.

In Britain there were plenty of men, but few women. When the Golen knew this, they carried off girls everywhere and gave them to the Britons for nothing.

***

An-t north-ende fon Britanja thaet fvl mith hâga bergum is, thêr sit en Skots folk, vr-et mâradêl ût Fryas blod sproten, vr-a êne helte send hja ût Kaeltanafolgar, vr-et ôra dêl ût Britne aend bannane, thêr by grâdnm mith tyd fon-ût-a tinlônum thêr hinna fljuchte.

In the north part of Britain which is full with high mountains, there exists a Scotch people—the most of them spring from Frya’s blood—some of them are descended from the followers of Keltana, and, for the rest, from Britons and fugitives who gradually, in the course of time, took refuge there from the tin mines.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 02 September 2011 - 06:54 PM, said:

I do not disagree with the literal meaning of 'britne' (outcasts, exiles), but in the pieces of texts I quoted from the OLB it is clear for me that Britons are meant.

Yes, OLB is full of ambiguities, words that can be interpreted and translated in different ways.

That's actually one of the things I love about it.

If I would have to translate it, I would use many footnotes.

(That's why I prefer to read it in the original language...)

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 02 September 2011 - 07:16 PM, said:

Yes, OLB is full of ambiguities, words that can be interpreted and translated in different ways.

That's actually one of the things I love about it.

If I would have to translate it, I would use many footnotes.

(That's why I prefer to read it in the original language...)

That we agree on.

And if you read the second quote in my former post, you will have noticed I added "which is full with high mountains", a phrase Sandbach just left out of his translation for god knows what reason.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 02 September 2011 - 07:23 PM.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 02 September 2011 - 07:23 PM, said:

That we agree on.

And if you read the second quote in my former post, you will have noticed I added "which is full with high mountains", a phrase Sandbach just left out of his translation for god knows what reason.

Yeah, many things got lost in Sandbach's translation.

I trust that Alewyn will deliver a superior one soon.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 02 September 2011 - 07:31 PM, said:

Yeah, many things got lost in Sandbach's translation.

I trust that Alewyn will deliver a superior one soon.

I think all of us here have contributed a lot in 410+ pages to a better understanding of the OLB, whether they were skeptic or believer.

I think Alewyn must write really fast, or someone else will 'gather the grapes', lol.

And I know about that: some magazine stole an idea I posted in the Doggerland thread more than a year ago:

http://www.unexplain...dpost&p=3991348


Btw, do you remember Alewyn once asked me to be the co-writer of the second edition of his book??

Well, that was too much of an honour to me, and he never ever talked about it again.

And now he is silent like a grave.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 02 September 2011 - 07:54 PM.