226 replies to this topic

[Br Cornelius]

Yamato, on 10 October 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

Accepting today's reality after all the power grabs are made, pragmatically accepting whatever works after whatever smoke and fires are started,  is the most docile and trouble-starting strategy for living I've heard yet.

The free market is brutal, sir.   And the difference between us quickly becomes whether or not we're willing to accept the consequences of our own actions and applying that standard consistently to politicians, corporations and individuals alike, or not.

And don't inject "perfection" into anything I've said yet.  It doesn't belong there.

No - the difference between you and me is you believe that a few catchy formulas can solve all the worlds problems without actually having to address each issue on its own terms.
My pragmatic approach allows the best solution to be applied to each and every issue as it arises - without having to attempt to shoe horn it into a neat little predigested box.

My approach is the very essence of hard work - where as yours is just lazy intellectualism.

Br Cornelius

[Yamato]

Br Cornelius, on 10 October 2012 - 07:13 PM, said:

No - the difference between you and me is you believe that a few catchy formulas can solve all the worlds problems without actually having to address each issue on its own terms.
My pragmatic approach allows the best solution to be applied to each and every issue as it arises - without having to attempt to shoe horn it into a neat little predigested box.

My approach is the very essence of hard work - where as yours is just lazy intellectualism.

Br Cornelius

I'm holding my own nation's government to standards that the market imposes on me because I'm not too big to fail.   You're once again disingenuously putting words in my mouth to distort what I'm saying.

You don't allow the best solution when government forces its own solutions upon everyone.   To even believe what you're saying you have to assume that government always has the best solution to all of our problems.  That "herd mentality" that you assign to free people making purchasing decisions for themselves.  I'd love to see you pat your wife or your girlfriend on the head and tell them that actually they're just following a herd and aren't as capable of making smart purchasing decisions for themselves and should let the government take care of them.

[Br Cornelius]

Yamato, on 10 October 2012 - 07:32 PM, said:

I'm holding my own nation's government to standards that the market imposes on me because I'm not too big to fail.   You're once again disingenuously putting words in my mouth to distort what I'm saying.

You don't allow the best solution when government forces its own solutions upon everyone.   To even believe what you're saying you have to assume that government always has the best solution to all of our problems.  That "herd mentality" that you assign to free people making purchasing decisions for themselves.  I'd love to see you pat your wife or your girlfriend on the head and tell them that actually they're just following a herd and aren't as capable of making smart purchasing decisions for themselves and should let the government take care of them.

Have I advocated the current mode of Government as a solution ? No
Do I think there are serious issues with the way the American and UK and Irish Governments currently operate ? Yes
Do I think that a Free Market and Gold standard are the solutions to the above problems ? No

You see its simple when you try. Easy catchy solutions are not going to get us out of the mess we are in. It was the market running without adequate regulation which got us where we are today - so I hardly think that leaving it to the markets is going to get us to where we need to be in the future. You may find horrendous market swings (which are implicit in lightly regulated markets and which a cursory review of history will show) and the consequent social misery, to be acceptable an acceptable price to pay for your dream - but I don't.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 10 October 2012 - 07:46 PM.

[questionmark]

Br Cornelius, on 10 October 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

so I hardly think that leaving it to the markets is going to get us to where we need to be in the future.

In fact, it is not even going to get us where the markets need to be in the future.

[Yamato]

Br Cornelius, on 10 October 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

Have I advocated the current mode of Government as a solution ? No
Do I think there are serious issues with the way the American and UK and Irish Governments currently operate ? Yes
Do I think that a Free Market and Gold standard are the solutions to the above problems ? No

You see its simple when you try. Easy catchy solutions are not going to get us out of the mess we are in. It was the market running without adequate regulation which got us where we are today - so I hardly think that leaving it to the markets is going to get us to where we need to be in the future. You may find horrendous market swings (which are implicit in lightly regulated markets and which a cursory review of history will show) and the consequent social misery, to be acceptable an acceptable price to pay for your dream - but I don't.

Br Cornelius

Have I advocated the current mode of Government as a solution ?

Yes of course you do, repeatedly. The current monetary policy is to appoint powerful people who control our money supply and you've advocated for fiat again and again and again.  Let the market (the behavior of you and I) decide our interest rates.  Stop blindly trusting in the opinion of government to determine what our money supply should be.

[Br Cornelius]

Yamato, on 10 October 2012 - 08:05 PM, said:

Have I advocated the current mode of Government as a solution ?

Yes of course you do, repeatedly. The current monetary policy is to appoint powerful people who control our money supply and you've advocated for fiat again and again and again.  Let the market (the behavior of you and I) decide our interest rates.  Stop blindly trusting in the opinion of government to determine what our money supply should be.

As you keep saying to me - don't presume to say that you understand my opinions on Government.

I have advocated a highly modified interest free currency based on a tie to a basket of real world commodities. That is in no way similar to what we have at the moment so to state that I advocate the Status Quo is entirely false and shows that you do not understand anything but your own opinions.

Br Cornelius

[Yamato]

Br Cornelius, on 10 October 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

As you keep saying to me - don't presume to say that you understand my opinions on Government.

I have advocated a highly modified interest free currency based on a tie to a basket of real world commodities. That is in no way similar to what we have at the moment so to state that I advocate the Status Quo is entirely false and shows that you do not understand anything but your own opinions.

Br Cornelius

If you're not for the status quo as you have also repeatedly claimed then explain to me what's wrong with the Federal Reserve system?  

What I just said has nothing to do with whether or not we have a highly modified interest free currency based on a tie to a basket of real world commodities.   It has to do with free market principles which you have repeatedly scorned on this thread.   And like a typical Keynesian you can't take responsibility for your own words like you can't allow others to take responsibility for their own actions.

I believe in competition among banks for soundness and reputation just like I believe in competition among corporations, among currencies, among governments and among individuals.  Not rewarding gigantic banks with Ben Bernanke Bucks for their greed or stupidity to forsake the small solvent bank who wanted to make the loan.  Don't cite Krugman here, cheerlead fiat here, poopoo the free market here and then tell me you support something else other than Keynesianism.   How you'd tweak the Keynesian code differently than person X doesn't free you from what you've said on this thread from the beginning.  People who have money to invest shouldn't be betting on the big dumb bank because the government says it's okay.  

If you want to pretend that you have the best solutions for everything, you should cite the evidence for it.   And when I asked you for a source and left this thread alone over the weekend, I returned to see a den full of Keynesian werewolves having a fiat party when the market guy took a hiatus.   It's obvious what you support already, you just need a clearer mirror.

[Br Cornelius]

Not having a set of simple answers to solve all the issues we face is the very essence of why I cannot just produce "Gold Standard" "Free Market Fundamentalism" to every issue. If you think that's a problem, then I am just glad that what you say will only represent a loud voice and not any actual policy.

You may not realize it but your mentality got us in this mess in the first place.

Br Cornelius

[Yamato]

Br Cornelius, on 10 October 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

Not having a set of simple answers to solve all the issues we face is the very essence of why I cannot just produce "Gold Standard" "Free Market Fundamentalism" to every issue. If you think that's a problem, then I am just glad that what you say will only represent a loud voice and not any actual policy.

You may not realize it but your mentality got us in this mess in the first place.

Br Cornelius

Advocating for a gold standard results from understanding that our best results come from free individuals and groups of individuals, not the government nor the elite class of the powerful few who want nothing more than to have power over us if we let them.  I can only imagine how hard you'd get slapped for telling your girlfriend she's not smart enough to make intelligent decisions for herself.  

My "mentality" prevents us getting into this mess in the first place because it represents real change from what we've been doing that got us there. Everything from the economy to a principle to a standard to money is a vacuous innocuous " mental idea" to you because you fight against freedom instead of embracing it.   It's frankly disgusting to see you do it.  This Keynesian candy land of government, gigantic secretive banks and statist gurus pulling the switches for us better than we can ourselves is the heart of the problem we have in this society; we're complicit and ignorant and let ourselves be misled.  Most people understand this when you talk to them; you are not one of those people.

We've had enough Krugman Keynesianism and Wall Street bailouts.  It's time to put the hammer down on these clowns and the gold standard is just one way to achieve that.

Edited by Yamato, 10 October 2012 - 09:18 PM.

[DieChecker]

Yamato, on 10 October 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

Whether the US dollar survives for another hundred years is not of interest to me.  What I'm interested in trying to fix is the horrible effects that massive government intervention into the markets will cause.   A hundred more years of suffering the consequences of a failed policy is nothing I find morally acceptable or politically tenable.

You're basically agruing the "What if" armageden idea. That horrible horrendous things could... could happen to the US dollar. But that is like my arguing that we should eliminate local school busing, because one drives by my house several times every day and eventually it could crash into my house and kill me and all those kids on the bus. You're arguing for a future that just does not look like it will ever appear. Much like the FEMA conspiricists who say that all the US poor and any radicals are going to go into FEMA camps. That is just not going to happen.

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Thanks for that trip into conspiracy theory.  Always a trusty detour in a debate over policy.

It is YOUR theory...

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The gold standard is easily administered.  Undoing Nixon Shock would be a first official step.   The idea being to get the dollar back on the map while it's still got the credibility left that it does.   Market sentiment is everything and ultimately the market will win this argument too.   The market always wins in the end and it always will.  If mankind blows himself back to the stone-age, the market will still reign supreme, and more so than ever.  Stop fighting it.  Stop tearing the bed like little piggies and then squealing because it got ripped, Keynesians.  That's not asking for much.

I still don't understand where all this extra gold the FedGov is going to need will be coming from. Is gold ownership going to be illegal under a Gold Standard? Is the FedGov going to seize private gold? Won't collecting enough gold to cover Trillions of dollars of activity mean that automatically the Debt would leap up Trillions also?

How is having a stable economy going to reduce our national Debt? After all the Democrats (Handout Kings) and the Republicans (Warmongers) will still be working in DC, right? Seems like all that would be accomplished is to make those who own gold currently better off and make paying off our national debt impossible.

[Yamato]

DieChecker, on 11 October 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

You're basically agruing the "What if" armageden idea. That horrible horrendous things could... could happen to the US dollar. But that is like my arguing that we should eliminate local school busing, because one drives by my house several times every day and eventually it could crash into my house and kill me and all those kids on the bus. You're arguing for a future that just does not look like it will ever appear. Much like the FEMA conspiricists who say that all the US poor and any radicals are going to go into FEMA camps. That is just not going to happen.


It is YOUR theory...


I still don't understand where all this extra gold the FedGov is going to need will be coming from. Is gold ownership going to be illegal under a Gold Standard? Is the FedGov going to seize private gold? Won't collecting enough gold to cover Trillions of dollars of activity mean that automatically the Debt would leap up Trillions also?

How is having a stable economy going to reduce our national Debt? After all the Democrats (Handout Kings) and the Republicans (Warmongers) will still be working in DC, right? Seems like all that would be accomplished is to make those who own gold currently better off and make paying off our national debt impossible.

I never even thought of armageddon and I'm not arguing that at all.  You don't understand what I'm saying if you read that into anything I typed.    I see how bad things got already and I'm trying to reverse what should be crystal clear.

When you print endless crates of money and blow the money supply up, you can't create value out of thin air.  Do you understand that?   There is only real value in work, not in adding zeroes to a balance sheet.  You are robbing the value that's already out there thanks to the hard work and savings of everyone else who did the right thing.  This is robbery, and it's wrapped up in a gobmint wrapper so well, and there are so many voices in the system telling you it's alright, so much statist BS out there convincing you that you must be controlled like a financial slave class, that they get away with it.

What's going to happen in the future is the same thing that's happened for the past 100 years.   Don't keep doing the same thing and actually expecting a different result.  The numbers are in already.  The perpetual and endless devaluation of the dollar is what this discussion is all about.  Not conspiracies and changes of subject.   I can't believe you can't see the inflation all around you on every major sector of the economy the government has its maws in.   From the middle class to the elite.  From the savers to the lenders.   From capital to credit.  From revenue to debt.

I didn't say anything about a stable economy, I said a stable currency.  How that's going to help is to make things more affordable for people.   We can trade more intelligently than massive labor and manufacturing outsourcing combined with deliberate dollar devaluation to try to help balance out our massive trade deficit.

I still don't understand where all this extra gold the FedGov is going to need will be coming from. Is gold ownership going to be illegal under a Gold Standard? Is the FedGov going to seize private gold? Won't collecting enough gold to cover Trillions of dollars of activity mean that automatically the Debt would leap up Trillions also?

We're going in circles here.   From the global marketplace.   It will need to be regulated like everything else.  Asking good questions is prudent.  Implying that it's impossible is ridiculous.    It was possible in 1970 and it's possible now.   Just because the central bank blew up the money supply doesn't mean that unpouring all that liquid which nobody questions the horrible side effects of doing when Ben Bernanke promises doing it over and over again, it's somehow only an issue when someone is advocating for a gold standard.  Do the banks collect reserves they need to meet everyone's bank balance?   Do you understand we live in a fractional reserve system?   We will live in a fractional gold system as well.   If people want to convert cash into gold, they'll have to bid on it in the marketplace.   Hoarding gold will no longer make sense like it does today.

If you ignore history, and you ignore facts, and you ignore inflation, and you ignore the rich powerful men who control you through their opinions about what the value and supply of your money should be, then something (what?) I said might sound like a conspiracy to you.  But the joke's on you obviously when you can't even acknowledge the problem we have with our monetary policy.

[DieChecker]

Yamato, on 11 October 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

I never even thought of armageddon and I'm not arguing that at all.  You don't understand what I'm saying if you read that into anything I typed. I see how bad things got already and I'm trying to reverse what should be crystal clear.

The only reason I could agree with you is if it was an armagedden event. Otherwise you are suggesting using a sledge hammer to kill a fly.

The trouble it would take to implement your idea would be a lot worse in the short run (20 years?) then what we have now. Sure... hypothetically, several decades down the road, people would say, "Gee that WAS a good idea.", but really, if it is going to take that long, why not wait till AFTER we're out of a crappy Recovery and on level ground again?

Quote

When you print endless crates of money and blow the money supply up, you can't create value out of thin air.  Do you understand that?   There is only real value in work, not in adding zeroes to a balance sheet.  You are robbing the value that's already out there thanks to the hard work and savings of everyone else who did the right thing.

I totally agree with that assessment, except... how much money was printed this year? What percentage of the total currency out there was that?

http://www.moneyfact...ionfigures.html

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95% of the notes printed each year are used to replace notes already in, or taken out of circulation.

Quote

Denomination  FY 2010
$1 ---------- 1,856,000,000
$2 ---------- N/A
$5 ---------- 352,000,000
$10 ---------- N/A
$20 ---------- 2,265,600,000
$50 ---------- N/A
$100 ---------- 1,907,200,000

Total (2010): 239.648 Billion

So 5% of that would be 12 Billion in new bills. I don't think that is going to sink a 10 Trillion dollar economy, or even really help, other then with News Spin, the Budget, FedGov Spending, the Deficit, or the National Debt.

Show me how 12 billion added to a trillion dollar economy ruins it?

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What's going to happen in the future is the same thing that's happened for the past 100 years.   Don't keep doing the same thing and actually expecting a different result.  

I thought things were not "ruined" until th 1960s? Not it is 100 years?

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The perpetual and endless devaluation of the dollar is what this discussion is all about.  Not conspiracies and changes of subject.

So even when the US was on the Gold Standard, there was marked Devaluement?

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Implying that it's impossible is ridiculous.  

I did not say it was impossible. I simply asked where the gold and money was going to come from to Buy the gold. Saying it will come from the market is basically letting the market have control of the gold, isn't it?

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We will live in a fractional gold system as well.   If people want to convert cash into gold, they'll have to bid on it in the marketplace.   Hoarding gold will no longer make sense like it does today.

I thought the whole point was that the gold would be actually in existance and able to be traded. If all it is going to be, is stuck into a hole in the ground and guarded by the Army, then we will quickly be in the same predicaments. The reason for the gold is to prevent people from changing the value of the dollar, right? But, if the gold, for all practical purposes, does not exist, what has been fixed?

Quote

If you ignore history, and you ignore facts, and you ignore inflation, and you ignore the rich powerful men who control you through their opinions about what the value and supply of your money should be, then something (what?) I said might sound like a conspiracy to you.  But the joke's on you obviously when you can't even acknowledge the problem we have with our monetary policy.

Sorry, it is just my opinion after all. I just think it can not be as bad as you portray, and can't be fixed as easily as you say. History shows that the gold standard has problems of its own, and its own set of facts and issues. Don't be blinded yourself, just because you think some fraction of an idea is good.

Edited by DieChecker, 12 October 2012 - 04:19 AM.

[Yamato]

DieChecker, on 12 October 2012 - 04:08 AM, said:

The only reason I could agree with you is if it was an armagedden event. Otherwise you are suggesting using a sledge hammer to kill a fly.

The trouble it would take to implement your idea would be a lot worse in the short run (20 years?) then what we have now. Sure... hypothetically, several decades down the road, people would say, "Gee that WAS a good idea.", but really, if it is going to take that long, why not wait till AFTER we're out of a crappy Recovery and on level ground again?


I totally agree with that assessment, except... how much money was printed this year? What percentage of the total currency out there was that?

http://www.moneyfact...ionfigures.html



Total (2010): 239.648 Billion

So 5% of that would be 12 Billion in new bills. I don't think that is going to sink a 10 Trillion dollar economy, or even really help, other then with News Spin, the Budget, FedGov Spending, the Deficit, or the National Debt.

Show me how 12 billion added to a trillion dollar economy ruins it?

The engraving department isn't even relevant to quantitative easing because QE is done with electronic money.    They don't even have to print the money anymore.   And look at the devaluation of our currency all those years before they were adding zeroes with keyboards.  It dropped in real value (purchasing power) ~1% per year and the problem is that you approach 100% in a century.   And that's just with the Federal Reserve and gradually turning over to total fiat currency, QE is a new digital ponzi scheme for a digital age of money manipulation.

The way out of this fake recovery is a severe recession, which is the same recession (actually depression) that the government keeps printing over and kicking down the road.   Interest rates are going up some day whether the Fed prints another gazillion dollars or not.  The law of diminishing returns applies to every new iteration of QE we let ourselves digest.   The problems will continue to get worse, centered around debt nobody has a political will or political clue to pay for.   The market will win sooner or later, what prices it sets and what interest rates it sets will become the prices and rates we live with, this will be a global process more so than at any other time in our history, and all the Fed can do is delay that day, and the longer we put the real recovery off the worse the pain is going to be.

[acidhead]

Yamato, on 11 October 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

I never even thought of armageddon and I'm not arguing that at all.  You don't understand what I'm saying if you read that into anything I typed. I see how bad things got already and I'm trying to reverse what should be crystal clear.

When you print endless crates of money and blow the money supply up, you can't create value out of thin air.  Do you understand that?   There is only real value in work, not in adding zeroes to a balance sheet.  You are robbing the value that's already out there thanks to the hard work and savings of everyone else who did the right thing.  This is robbery, and it's wrapped up in a gobmint wrapper so well, and there are so many voices in the system telling you it's alright, so much statist BS out there convincing you that you must be controlled like a financial slave class, that they get away with it.

What's going to happen in the future is the same thing that's happened for the past 100 years.   Don't keep doing the same thing and actually expecting a different result.  The numbers are in already.  The perpetual and endless devaluation of the dollar is what this discussion is all about.  Not conspiracies and changes of subject.   I can't believe you can't see the inflation all around you on every major sector of the economy the government has its maws in.   From the middle class to the elite.  From the savers to the lenders.   From capital to credit.  From revenue to debt.

I didn't say anything about a stable economy, I said a stable currency.  How that's going to help is to make things more affordable for people.   We can trade more intelligently than massive labor and manufacturing outsourcing combined with deliberate dollar devaluation to try to help balance out our massive trade deficit.

I still don't understand where all this extra gold the FedGov is going to need will be coming from. Is gold ownership going to be illegal under a Gold Standard? Is the FedGov going to seize private gold? Won't collecting enough gold to cover Trillions of dollars of activity mean that automatically the Debt would leap up Trillions also?

We're going in circles here.   From the global marketplace.   It will need to be regulated like everything else.  Asking good questions is prudent.  Implying that it's impossible is ridiculous. It was possible in 1970 and it's possible now.   Just because the central bank blew up the money supply doesn't mean that unpouring all that liquid which nobody questions the horrible side effects of doing when Ben Bernanke promises doing it over and over again, it's somehow only an issue when someone is advocating for a gold standard.  Do the banks collect reserves they need to meet everyone's bank balance?   Do you understand we live in a fractional reserve system?   We will live in a fractional gold system as well.   If people want to convert cash into gold, they'll have to bid on it in the marketplace.   Hoarding gold will no longer make sense like it does today.

If you ignore history, and you ignore facts, and you ignore inflation, and you ignore the rich powerful men who control you through their opinions about what the value and supply of your money should be, then something (what?) I said might sound like a conspiracy to you.  But the joke's on you obviously when you can't even acknowledge the problem we have with our monetary policy.

If people want to --is my whole argument.. amen... and I ain't even Jewish.... hahha  

The point is:  Let the people decide what is valuable and what is not.

[Yamato]

I find it strange how nobody is insisting we chase after digital money created on a keyboard with our printing presses and engraving departments, how nobody is whining over how many new pieces of paper there are (aren't) in circulation accounting for all that phony wealth, but the moment you mention the gold standard everyone throws the entire financial system out the window for new rules that somehow only get applied to gold.   Paper gets worn out fast and the creation of new bills is more a process of replacing worn out pieces of paper (and maintaining an abundant supply of bills to meet expected market demand) than making the entire $50 trillion worth of credit out there paperized.  I could care less how much paper we have anymore vs. how much money it says we have in our electronic balances.  If reserves mattered they'd matter already; not just after some kind of metallic standard is reestablished for our currency.

"Let the people decide."  Hear hear!