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#1    khol

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 05:23 AM

Hello to all
my forgiveness as i can assume this topic has been a popular one over the years here (:
could anyone enlighten me or give me some feed back on what they think is going on?
it was striebers book communion years ago that got me going on it
and since have followed these reports,trying to understand how to explain this
what perplexes me are the claims from credible people
John Mack(RIP) and others who became believers in this phenomena after interviewing countless individuals...i remember a quote from him ...something like "if its not some form of intelligence engaging with us then,just what is going on?..because something is affecting these people"...which no one has really explained away really
i find it quite odd when you get two people living on opposite sides of a country,who have never met,explain the same entities,procedures and interference into there lives
i've heard sleep paralysis and other ideas to explain this but how does it account for the similarity amongst individuals who have never met?
is all some form of mass delusion created within our minds?
or is this really happening...
i have read so much about it,am an incredibly skeptical person
but can't help but feel its all true?!?!...and if it is its not really that outlandish or far fetched and seems perfectly possible
there could be something here,affecting millions of people
who they are,where they are from is anyones guess
well...any thoughts?
thanks so much (:


#2    psyche101

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 06:05 AM

View Postkhol, on 07 January 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

Hello to all
my forgiveness as i can assume this topic has been a popular one over the years here (:
could anyone enlighten me or give me some feed back on what they think is going on?
it was striebers book communion years ago that got me going on it
and since have followed these reports,trying to understand how to explain this
what perplexes me are the claims from credible people
John Mack(RIP) and others who became believers in this phenomena after interviewing countless individuals...i remember a quote from him ...something like "if its not some form of intelligence engaging with us then,just what is going on?..because something is affecting these people"...which no one has really explained away really
i find it quite odd when you get two people living on opposite sides of a country,who have never met,explain the same entities,procedures and interference into there lives
i've heard sleep paralysis and other ideas to explain this but how does it account for the similarity amongst individuals who have never met?
is all some form of mass delusion created within our minds?
or is this really happening...
i have read so much about it,am an incredibly skeptical person
but can't help but feel its all true?!?!...and if it is its not really that outlandish or far fetched and seems perfectly possible
there could be something here,affecting millions of people
who they are,where they are from is anyones guess
well...any thoughts?
thanks so much (:

I did answer you in the other thread where you posed this question.

Why would then not be different? Hollywood has told us what to expect, do you not think it a bit more amazing that Hollywood seems to be so spot on when it comes to Aliens? Is it not far more amazing that we seem to have accurately predicted the appearance of the Grey Aliens with books and movies that go a long way back?

Does this sound familiar?


Quote

The science fiction writer H. G. Wells, in the article "Man of the Year Million" in 1893, describes humanity transformed into a race of grey-skinned beings, stunted and with big heads.


In 1933, the Swedish novelist Gustav Sandgren, using the pen name Gabriel Linde, published a science fiction novel called Den okända faran (The Unknown Danger), where he describes a race of extraterrestrials: "[...] the creatures did not resemble any race of humans. They were short, shorter than the average Japanese, and their heads were big and bald, with strong, square foreheads, and very small noses and mouths, and weak chins. What was most extraordinary about them were the eyes – large, dark, gleaming, with a sharp gaze. They wore clothes made of soft grey fabric, and their limbs seemed to be similar to those of humans."


LINK


Betty and Barney described Aliens that were suspiciously similar to some recently aired on TV. Even UFO's seem to follow the technological advancements of humans. No matter how you look at the phenomena, eventually your finger points back at earth.


I asked in the other thread your opinion of Macks motivation. It is all well and good to say Mack investigates and writes papers on this! But as I pointed out, Mack himself felt the abduction phenomena was a mental problem. What convinced him of his more extraordinary claims was simply that after examining many brains, he could find nothing that he considered out of the ordinary. But his first thought was mental illness, not Aliens.

And Mack's approach is that the Aliens are spiritual beings, not physical ones. Despite the woo woo sites heralding his work, I fear they do not actually understand it, and I fear that is deliberate.

LINK - HUMAN ENCOUNTERS Interview With John E Mack



MISHLOVE: Well, it sounds as if what you're saying is you're inclined to take these reports at face value.

MACK: Face value I wouldn't say. I take them seriously. I don't have a way to account for them. I hear the people. They describe experiences in great detail that are so similar, one to another, and the only thing I know that acts like that is real experience. Now, face value is another matter, because then you're saying, well, that implies that this is occurring literally in this physical world, just as you and I are talking here. So that would have no place for something which came from some other realm, crossed over into our reality, entered our reality in this complex way we've been talking about. So I take it seriously. It's powerfully real for these people. It's mysterious. It affects them like any other trauma might; but there are many elements, of course, about it that are not simply traumatic, that can create really extraordinary human growth and transformational directions for these individuals.



I mean no offence, but considering the above, are you sure you are reading Mack right? He seems to be more along the path of Jacques Vallee than the UFO goons like Freidman.


I have often linked to an ABC special called "My Mum Talks To Aliens". I think this is a good special, and shows that most abductees are not the average bear. More like a sandwich short of a picnic. Personally, I think that not all are sleep paralysis and other genuine items, some people are just sick puppies that do not get over wet dreams. And quite a few I would say. Maybe even as much as 40%. I certainly think Mack was onto something with his original suspicions, but ego held him back. Just because the great John Mack cannot find a thing does not mean it does not exist. There is more proof of mental illness than there is of abducting aliens.



Khol. Sounds like a Vulcan name. I had you confused with T'Pol's husband for a bit there, Koss.

Edited by psyche101, 07 January 2013 - 06:08 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#3    khol

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 01:54 PM

View Postpsyche101, on 07 January 2013 - 06:05 AM, said:

I did answer you in the other thread where you posed this question.

Why would then not be different? Hollywood has told us what to expect, do you not think it a bit more amazing that Hollywood seems to be so spot on when it comes to Aliens? Is it not far more amazing that we seem to have accurately predicted the appearance of the Grey Aliens with books and movies that go a long way back?

Does this sound familiar?





LINK


Betty and Barney described Aliens that were suspiciously similar to some recently aired on TV. Even UFO's seem to follow the technological advancements of humans. No matter how you look at the phenomena, eventually your finger points back at earth.


I asked in the other thread your opinion of Macks motivation. It is all well and good to say Mack investigates and writes papers on this! But as I pointed out, Mack himself felt the abduction phenomena was a mental problem. What convinced him of his more extraordinary claims was simply that after examining many brains, he could find nothing that he considered out of the ordinary. But his first thought was mental illness, not Aliens.

And Mack's approach is that the Aliens are spiritual beings, not physical ones. Despite the woo woo sites heralding his work, I fear they do not actually understand it, and I fear that is deliberate.

LINK - HUMAN ENCOUNTERS Interview With John E Mack



MISHLOVE: Well, it sounds as if what you're saying is you're inclined to take these reports at face value.

MACK: Face value I wouldn't say. I take them seriously. I don't have a way to account for them. I hear the people. They describe experiences in great detail that are so similar, one to another, and the only thing I know that acts like that is real experience. Now, face value is another matter, because then you're saying, well, that implies that this is occurring literally in this physical world, just as you and I are talking here. So that would have no place for something which came from some other realm, crossed over into our reality, entered our reality in this complex way we've been talking about. So I take it seriously. It's powerfully real for these people. It's mysterious. It affects them like any other trauma might; but there are many elements, of course, about it that are not simply traumatic, that can create really extraordinary human growth and transformational directions for these individuals.



I mean no offence, but considering the above, are you sure you are reading Mack right? He seems to be more along the path of Jacques Vallee than the UFO goons like Freidman.


I have often linked to an ABC special called "My Mum Talks To Aliens". I think this is a good special, and shows that most abductees are not the average bear. More like a sandwich short of a picnic. Personally, I think that not all are sleep paralysis and other genuine items, some people are just sick puppies that do not get over wet dreams. And quite a few I would say. Maybe even as much as 40%. I certainly think Mack was onto something with his original suspicions, but ego held him back. Just because the great John Mack cannot find a thing does not mean it does not exist. There is more proof of mental illness than there is of abducting aliens.



Khol. Sounds like a Vulcan name. I had you confused with T'Pol's husband for a bit there, Koss.
hey thanks for the feed back..i had lost my previous post about it and missed your reply (:
couldn't remember where i posted it!  (ahh that damn alziemers kicking in )
being as skeptical as i am..which i think many should adhere to when relating to these topics,it helps me to understand this whole thing in a way that i can relate to...i mean there must be some sort of explanation.
i got caught up with strieber and his books,his website blah blah blah but have started to feel he him self is delusional with his claims
another one is David Jacobs who seems extremley convincing when he talks about his research
i like tho to keep an open mind about it but until some real evidence comes forth one will have to consider this is all earthly in origin!
by the way Khol is the name of my lab...a great dog...far as i know he hasn't been abducted yet!
anyway cheers my friend..thanks for your info


#4    Paranormalcy

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 08:08 PM

It should also be noted that Alestair Crowley and his group of occultists held a number of rituals... in the 20s I think (off the top of my head here), to "invite" or invoke a "race" or type of entity from another realm, into our world. Named "Lam", the depiction of the entity type is also often compared with the greys, but has eyes and pupils, making it actually look much closer to Betty and Barney Hill's descriptions (though of course since theirs too are noted to be similar to greys...).

I do believe that a lot more abduction experiences than are currently believed, can be accounted for by sleep paralysis, most of which, with some minor variations, share the same essential primary imagery, symbolism and earmarks, all over the world, pretty well supporting the idea of there being a very potent and surprisingly unifying "bond" between the different cultures of Man, seemingly stemming from some sort of a universal set of "archetypes" that encompass the entire human experience itself - the "observation" phenomena is another of these phenomenon shared the world over, where a person just knows with a certainty that someone is "watching them", even in a waking state - although some tentative studies are suggesting there may be a more unusual and complex component to this, generally this is considered to be a shared thread of instinctual readiness which surfaces from time to time, manifesting our predator and prey natures, not to mention our stress levels and anxieties.

I also first became interested in the abduction experience from Strieber's Communion and then Budd Hopkins and then various other books and then documentaries and movies, but I have found it supremely helpful to look at things from directly opposing and also moderately dissenting points of view, such as pure "skeptics" or denunkers, as well as people with a much more academic and abstract point of view; people like Jacques Vallee, mentioned above by Psyche101. Famed psychology/psychiatry forefather Carl Jung also wrote a book on flying saucers not to be published until his death, where he called them a "mythology in the making", and this would seem to be the case in some way of all phenomenon, but especially those that can be seen, even by the layman, to share some baffling similarities with other anomalies.

I also found Charles Fort a very interesting read, for his much older take on phenomenon, some of which could be viewed in light of modern day research, and found to be potentially relevant, but referred to much differently in previous centuries - we must not immediately dismiss such older research out of hand though, as though all researchers have their biases and limitation of knowledge, they also have their own very unique perspective on the way they look at certain things, that could prove to be a vital puzzle piece if brought to bear on later material.

Edited by Paranormalcy, 07 January 2013 - 08:09 PM.

| Ouija/Ideomotor | Sleep Paralys./Hypnogogia | Ouija: 252 hrs/4yrs



#5    psyche101

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 02:02 AM

View Postkhol, on 07 January 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

hey thanks for the feed back..i had lost my previous post about it and missed your reply (:
couldn't remember where i posted it!  (ahh that damn alziemers kicking in )
being as skeptical as i am..which i think many should adhere to when relating to these topics,it helps me to understand this whole thing in a way that i can relate to...i mean there must be some sort of explanation.
i got caught up with strieber and his books,his website blah blah blah but have started to feel he him self is delusional with his claims
another one is David Jacobs who seems extremley convincing when he talks about his research
i like tho to keep an open mind about it but until some real evidence comes forth one will have to consider this is all earthly in origin!
by the way Khol is the name of my lab...a great dog...far as i know he hasn't been abducted yet!
anyway cheers my friend..thanks for your info


You are most welcome, sorry for the terse tone, I had become concerned that you might be avoiding serious discussion, I am pleased to be wrong in this case.

With Streiber, I am not 100% sure that UFOlogists take him for his tale as he tells it, they seem to focus on the Abduction as mounting evidence of ET visitation. Something like the TT thread, just a mass of cases, valid or not, in an attempt to illustrate great volume.

From WIkipedia:


Quote

Whitley Strieber has repeatedly expressed frustration that his experiences have been taken as "alien contact" when he does not actually know what they were. While many support his work and the mainstream media largely ignores it, there has also been speculation that Strieber's accounts are neither fabricated nor entirely accurate. Strieber has reported anomalous childhood experiences and suggested that he may have suffered some sort of early interference by intelligence and/or military agencies.


LINK - The Boy in The Box By Whitley Streiber.

David Jacobs, crikey, I hear you there. He even says people make up Alien Abductions and put them into peoples heads, and then tries to call it a valid practise.

Quote



A Personal Note:


I wrote most of the information on this web site based on more than 42 years of UFO research.  In addition, since 1986 I have conducted over 1,000 hypnotic regressions with abductees.  I have tried to be as objective and as "agenda free" as possible.  I have no New Age, spiritual, religious, transformational, or transcendent program to promote.  I try to stay as close to the evidence as I can.  However, there is no possibility that I have avoided error.  The majority of evidence for the alien abduction phenomenon is from human memory derived from hypnosis administered by amateurs.  It is difficult to imagine a weaker form of evidence.  But it is evidence and we have a great deal of it.  Still, readers must be skeptical of what I say and of what all others say in this tangled arena of alien abductions, hypnosis, popular culture, and memory.  Abduction researchers are mainly amateurs doing their best to get to the truth knowing that objective reality may elude them.

David M. Jacobs, Ph.D.



LINK

I agree they are mainly amateurs, and they tend to do more harm than good. I think abductions and crop circles are pretty much on the same par, very weak and extreme examples of maybes. I remain convinced that at least a portion are wet dreams that get out of hand. Some are indeed sleep paralysis, and some are just trauma. But again, I think we can find enough earthly possibles to push ET out of this picture. I generally do not discuss this subject with claimed abductees as I just do not know how to say politely that I think they are crackers.

Kohl is a cool name, I like Labs, my little puppy is tiny by comparison, but I have become a dog person over the years and like them pretty much all. T'Pol is from Star Trek Enterprise, and quite a looker she is, she is Vulcan and her husbands name is Koss, been a while, I had the names confused ;)

Most welcome for the info, enjoy your time here, and welcome to UM.

Edited by psyche101, 08 January 2013 - 02:03 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#6    khol

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 02:39 AM

View PostParanormalcy, on 07 January 2013 - 08:08 PM, said:

It should also be noted that Alestair Crowley and his group of occultists held a number of rituals... in the 20s I think (off the top of my head here), to "invite" or invoke a "race" or type of entity from another realm, into our world. Named "Lam", the depiction of the entity type is also often compared with the greys, but has eyes and pupils, making it actually look much closer to Betty and Barney Hill's descriptions (though of course since theirs too are noted to be similar to greys...).

I do believe that a lot more abduction experiences than are currently believed, can be accounted for by sleep paralysis, most of which, with some minor variations, share the same essential primary imagery, symbolism and earmarks, all over the world, pretty well supporting the idea of there being a very potent and surprisingly unifying "bond" between the different cultures of Man, seemingly stemming from some sort of a universal set of "archetypes" that encompass the entire human experience itself - the "observation" phenomena is another of these phenomenon shared the world over, where a person just knows with a certainty that someone is "watching them", even in a waking state - although some tentative studies are suggesting there may be a more unusual and complex component to this, generally this is considered to be a shared thread of instinctual readiness which surfaces from time to time, manifesting our predator and prey natures, not to mention our stress levels and anxieties.

I also first became interested in the abduction experience from Strieber's Communion and then Budd Hopkins and then various other books and then documentaries and movies, but I have found it supremely helpful to look at things from directly opposing and also moderately dissenting points of view, such as pure "skeptics" or denunkers, as well as people with a much more academic and abstract point of view; people like Jacques Vallee, mentioned above by Psyche101. Famed psychology/psychiatry forefather Carl Jung also wrote a book on flying saucers not to be published until his death, where he called them a "mythology in the making", and this would seem to be the case in some way of all phenomenon, but especially those that can be seen, even by the layman, to share some baffling similarities with other anomalies.

I also found Charles Fort a very interesting read, for his much older take on phenomenon, some of which could be viewed in light of modern day research, and found to be potentially relevant, but referred to much differently in previous centuries - we must not immediately dismiss such older research out of hand though, as though all researchers have their biases and limitation of knowledge, they also have their own very unique perspective on the way they look at certain things, that could prove to be a vital puzzle piece if brought to bear on later material.
this "potent unifying bond" you speak of makes sense,and helps to explain the similarities between affected individuals,but it opens up new questions in defining this connection between "cultures of man" that you mention.
is this or has this been researched?
what is this connection?
i mean when two different people experience the same thing (apparently) it has to have some basis
either what there saying is fact or there is another explanation
i suppose we are all subjected to the same mass of information out there,whether we realize it or not
how our subconcious processes this could be similar and account for these similarities in forms that at first seem puzzling
but on delving deeper we find its only us...the lonely human...gazing upwards and looking for answers
i mentioned earlier how i felt the phenomenon "could" be true...how cool would that be..if the entities have a peaceful agenda that is
but truly tho there isn't proof or evidence to support this
also with the so called millions of people affected i have met no one or know of anyone who knows someone who has had this experience
no disrespect to anyone but have always believed that religion stems from peoples fear of death and the so called unanswerable question of "why we are here,how did we get here,where are we going"...its people trying to cope with there own mortality in a way that satisfies them
the abduction phenomenom i suppose is the same thing
its giving someone hope that we're not alone and that maybe there is something more to our reality then what we percieve
the fact that we ARE here and able to question our existence is all i need really..i don't need to add anymore to it
but its somewhat enjoyable to surmise our situation on this planet isn't it!


#7    khol

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 02:50 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 08 January 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

You are most welcome, sorry for the terse tone, I had become concerned that you might be avoiding serious discussion, I am pleased to be wrong in this case.

With Streiber, I am not 100% sure that UFOlogists take him for his tale as he tells it, they seem to focus on the Abduction as mounting evidence of ET visitation. Something like the TT thread, just a mass of cases, valid or not, in an attempt to illustrate great volume.

From WIkipedia:





LINK - The Boy in The Box By Whitley Streiber.

David Jacobs, crikey, I hear you there. He even says people make up Alien Abductions and put them into peoples heads, and then tries to call it a valid practise.



LINK

I agree they are mainly amateurs, and they tend to do more harm than good. I think abductions and crop circles are pretty much on the same par, very weak and extreme examples of maybes. I remain convinced that at least a portion are wet dreams that get out of hand. Some are indeed sleep paralysis, and some are just trauma. But again, I think we can find enough earthly possibles to push ET out of this picture. I generally do not discuss this subject with claimed abductees as I just do not know how to say politely that I think they are crackers.

Kohl is a cool name, I like Labs, my little puppy is tiny by comparison, but I have become a dog person over the years and like them pretty much all. T'Pol is from Star Trek Enterprise, and quite a looker she is, she is Vulcan and her husbands name is Koss, been a while, I had the names confused ;)

Most welcome for the info, enjoy your time here, and welcome to UM.
T'pol is a babe i must say..have been a star trek fan for years and years! (:


#8    Paranormalcy

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:42 AM

Again, regardless of the ultimate reality of what is going on, *something* is happening to "abductees", something very real and traumatic that affects their daily lives and families and health, both mental and physical, so it is irresponsible to say it is "nothing", and while as I stated, I do think many more experiences than are currently accounted for, are the result of a known but un/misidentified natural phenomenon (such as sleep paralysis), I don't discount there is a remaining "unexplained element" - because there clearly is. Moreso if you believe the tales of physical evidence, implants, varied biological and physiological changes or events, not to mention some corroborated multiple witness testimony of physical environmental evidence of aerial phenomena that seem to be connected to "aliens" and abduction experiences.

Is this unexplained element wholly made up of that subtle bond, manifesting in ways with which we are still unfamiliar? Possibly, but as you say, while ufo/abduction lore is full of stories and experiencers, for most of us, these might as well be unicorns, as rare as they are. I have friends or family or other acquaintances who have seen UFOs and various aerial phenomenon (black triangles, etc) as well as the more spiritual type things, such as ghosts, shadow people or other entities, but have also never met anyone personally that even knows an "abductee".

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#9    DBunker

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:59 PM

View PostParanormalcy, on 09 January 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

Again, regardless of the ultimate reality of what is going on, *something* is happening to "abductees", something very real and traumatic that affects their daily lives and families and health,

That "something" is happening inside their minds..... there is no CREDIBLE evidence that it has anything to do with ET.

Now that communications technology has made it possible to give global reach to the bizarre and archive it forever, it is essential for men and women of reason resolutely to counter the delusions of the fringe element. James S. Robbins

#10    khol

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 01:41 PM

View PostParanormalcy, on 09 January 2013 - 07:42 AM, said:

Again, regardless of the ultimate reality of what is going on, *something* is happening to "abductees", something very real and traumatic that affects their daily lives and families and health, both mental and physical, so it is irresponsible to say it is "nothing", and while as I stated, I do think many more experiences than are currently accounted for, are the result of a known but un/misidentified natural phenomenon (such as sleep paralysis), I don't discount there is a remaining "unexplained element" - because there clearly is. Moreso if you believe the tales of physical evidence, implants, varied biological and physiological changes or events, not to mention some corroborated multiple witness testimony of physical environmental evidence of aerial phenomena that seem to be connected to "aliens" and abduction experiences.

Is this unexplained element wholly made up of that subtle bond, manifesting in ways with which we are still unfamiliar? Possibly, but as you say, while ufo/abduction lore is full of stories and experiencers, for most of us, these might as well be unicorns, as rare as they are. I have friends or family or other acquaintances who have seen UFOs and various aerial phenomenon (black triangles, etc) as well as the more spiritual type things, such as ghosts, shadow people or other entities, but have also never met anyone personally that even knows an "abductee".
i appreciate your insights Paranormalcy...it is clear there is something going on with these people...which doesn't make the topic any less fascinating
there is some sort of connection,bond that seems to be somewhat unexplained
if it's all terrestial and within the human mind its still incredible really.
it seems to be showing us that our conscienceness between individuals is inter woven in ways that we as yet have any explanation


#11    notforgotten

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 03:23 PM

Don't know that I have ever been abducted before, but I am a real witness to aliens. They are real..

Edited by notforgotten, 09 January 2013 - 03:23 PM.


#12    khol

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 03:46 PM

View Postnotforgotten, on 09 January 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

Don't know that I have ever been abducted before, but I am a real witness to aliens. They are real..
hello notforgotten...would you care to share your experience with us?
what triggered your belief that these thing exist..





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