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proving the obvious


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#91    Seraphina

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Posted 26 April 2004 - 10:03 AM

QUOTE
could you provide a simple anology of any other theory regarding the created universe?


I probably could...however, are you even reading what we're saying anymore? For the final time, I'm going to say it more slowly....analogies don't prove a thing, they're a way of simplifying something to explain them in layman's terms.

The fact that you endlessly explain things in analogies suggests less that your arguement is a strong one, and more that you're forced to do so, because you lack even the faintest glimmer of actual evidence.

QUOTE
you cant just exclaim Nature did it,that is less than me saying God did it,I would say God did it using nature,the laws of and the physics of nature are designed and implemented by God.


We don't just "exclaim nature did it" tongue.gif We come to this conclusion by looking at factors that exist within nature; such as natural selection, genetic inheritance, selective breeding, competition, competative exclusion, adaptation, and any number of other actual, tangable forces of change, and draw our conclusions from that.

God, who you so love you back, doesn't exist in any scientific or logical terms. There has never been even a scrap of evidence to suggest he does, and as I've stated, using him as the ultimate creator of your theory ensures that everything you say is nothing but an assumption built on the back of another. The fact you can claim "god created everything", when God is, by it's very nature, utterly illogical, is a more likely arguement than natural evolution, is actually rather laughable, and I'm losing more and more confidence in your ability to make a decent arguement.

QUOTE
remember that bit,people assert ,Randomness,Nature etc created things do you deny that these things are less likely than an intelligent creator?


There's no "denying" about it; the likelyhood of a creator is so miniscule, it's not even brought into consideration in scientific theory anymore. While it's true we're not in the position to disprove God's existance, we've already discovered so much evidence that contradicts creationism in general, that the likelyhood of him being out there is shrinking on a practically yearly basis.

Well...at least, it is for people who actually know what evidence is tongue.gif

QUOTE
how did these things create magnetic forces,energy for example,The Vedas describe God creating,but where are the Ideas on the other things creating independently?


I'm sorry, but do you even know anything about the theory of evolution? Abiogenesis? I think you'll find there are a great many credible ideas for how things came into existance without the benefit of god...and hey, what do you know, unlike the Vedas, they actually have evidence to back themselves up! What do you know, we've even made some of them happen in a lab! w00t.gif

QUOTE
he may give the impression of winning an argument but look back at facts


If you're basing who's going to win the arguement on facts, then it won't take long to tally the scores tongue.gif You haven't presented any yet.

But, as you love analogies, here's one for you...

Imagine, if you will, a chicken, waving around what appears to be a paint brush, and insisting over and over that the world is flat, despite all evidence to the contrary, because a book (or rather, one of the many thousands upon thousands of flawed interpretations of a book) told him too.

When suddenly, along comes a beautiful (albiet pink haired) young woman, who extends her hand to him, attempting to bring him up to speed on what's actually going on, by showing him evidence, and structured arguements....but the chicken refused her aid, and clutched his book fiercly. You see, by now, the Chicken had grown so comfortable in his own little world, that common sense, logic, evidence, and even the fact that it could plainly be seen that his arguements were being blasted into the nether by the cute young girl, could no longer sway him.

You...*points a trembling finger*...are one of the cunningly veiled characters in that story Mr Proposer. I hope...I really do...that my analogy was simple enough for you to understand. Currently, I'm not sure there is any explanation or comparrison on the face of the earth that is...quite...that...simple.



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Apparantly, over on Exchristian.Net, they say that I'm "probably the smartest person" on UM....that is so cool...

#92    The Proposer

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Posted 26 April 2004 - 10:18 AM

yes lets look at your analogy,the chicken is misled into believing the earth is flat along comes another mis led entity with a better sounding Idea,but us two being observers of this event are able to realise that both entities exist and are performing a silly dance based on their misconceptions,we are in effect playing God.

yes i do read all you put,hoping for something,but remember all you said in your last post werebased on items without a start point,considering the wind,it has not just occured randomly ,some force as ro instigate it,please tell me (slowly if u like)that you understand occurences have to be instigated by a force.


#93    Seraphina

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Posted 26 April 2004 - 10:24 AM

QUOTE
that you understand occurences have to be instigated by a force.


Yes, yes I'm perfectly aware that every transaction in the universe requires energy tongue.gif However, I fail to see why you regard this as proof of some kind of conscious force directing this energy?

The fact that you think there needs to be a conscious entity at the helm, suggests less that you're thinking logically, and more that you lack an understanding of the fundamentals of energy transfers.

Most of the forces you seem to obsess over, for example, are caused by the gravitational forces at work on our own planet, or the pull of the moon. Intelligent design has absolutely nothing to do with it tongue.gif

Why don't you instead, and please, without using another silly analogy, explain to me why you believe everything must be directed by an intelligent force, despite that intelligent force revealing absolutely no evidence whatsover of its existance? I believe Mr Penguin challenged you to do so earlier, but you skirted the issue.

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#94    The Proposer

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Posted 26 April 2004 - 10:59 AM

QUOTE (Seraphina @ Apr 26 2004, 11:03 AM)


[quote]I probably could...however, are you even reading what we're saying anymore? For the final time, I'm going to say it more slowly....analogies don't prove a thing, they're a way of simplifying something to explain them in layman's terms.
[/quote] ******************then it would be helpful to me and others if you could simplify your view.*****************
[quote]The fact that you endlessly explain things in analogies suggests less that your arguement is a strong one, and more that you're forced to do so, because you lack even the faintest glimmer of actual evidence.[/quote]*******i,ll concede to you there,ideally i should be reffering you to quotes from the correct interpretation of the Vedas if you really want 100% correct answers search them out on web,Srila Prabhupadas translations and type in specific topic such as "evolution" .*********

[QUOTE]

We don't just "exclaim nature did it" tongue.gif We come to this conclusion by looking at factors that exist within nature; such as natural selection, genetic inheritance, selective breeding, competition, competative exclusion, adaptation, and any number of other actual, tangable forces of change, and draw our conclusions from that.
[/quoute] ******you state that nature didnt do it then break nature down into parts which did it,i could say the supreme God didnt do it  but four lesser Gods did it******
[quote]God, who you so love you back, doesn't exist in any scientific or logical terms. There has never been even a scrap of evidence to suggest he does, and as I've stated, using him as the ultimate creator of your theory ensures that everything you say is nothing but an assumption built on the back of another. The fact you can claim "god created everything", when God is, by it's very nature, utterly illogical, is a more likely arguement than natural evolution, is actually rather laughable, and I'm losing more and more confidence in your ability to make a decent arguement.[/quote]********this can relate to the dancing chicken and pinky hair one has a basic nisconception the other has built up a whole belief system on the basic misconception,they have ignored nunerous eyewitness accounts of the creator and his acts,they have ignored multitude of arguments ,they have ignored the obvious because they are sentementally attatched to their pet incorrect theories.*********

[QUOTE]

There's no "denying" about it; the likelyhood of a creator is so miniscule, it's not even brought into consideration in scientific theory anymore. While it's true we're not in the position to disprove God's existance, we've already discovered so much evidence that contradicts creationism in general, that the likelyhood of him being out there is shrinking on a practically yearly basis.

Well...at least, it is for people who actually know what evidence is tongue.gif [/quote]****so this evidence is like the wind just appearing without an instigating force,pet theories again,this isnt eviidence.*****[QUOTE]I'm sorry, but do you even know anything about the theory of evolution? Abiogenesis? I think you'll find there are a great many credible ideas for how things came into existance without the benefit of god...and hey, what do you know, unlike the Vedas, they actually have evidence to back themselves up! What do you know, we've even made some of them happen in a lab! w00t.gif [/quote]****again we have so called evidence,which is not evidence but a blind belief that things just exist without a traceable backing force.******

[QUOTE]If you're basing who's going to win the arguement on facts, then it won't take long to tally the scores tongue.gif You haven't presented any yet.

But, as you love analogies, here's one for you...

Imagine, if you will, a chicken, waving around what appears to be a paint brush, and insisting over and over that the world is flat, despite all evidence to the contrary, because a book (or rather, one of the many thousands upon thousands of flawed interpretations of a book) told him too.

When suddenly, along comes a beautiful (albiet pink haired) young woman, who extends her hand to him, attempting to bring him up to speed on what's actually going on, by showing him evidence, and structured arguements....but the chicken refused her aid, and clutched his book fiercly. You see, by now, the Chicken had grown so comfortable in his own little world, that common sense, logic, evidence, and even the fact that it could plainly be seen that his arguements were being blasted into the nether by the cute young girl, could no longer sway him.[/quote]**** i would label the chicken "Lesser Fool"****

[quote]You...*points a trembling finger*...are one of the cunningly veiled characters in that story Mr Proposer. I hope...I really do...that my analogy was simple enough for you to understand. Currently, I'm not sure there is any explanation or comparrison on the face of the earth that is...quite...that...simple.[/quote]******

so now you must tell me your story
oh pink haired one
from the beggining if you please
dont worry which came first
me or the egg
we both exist ,today ,you see
how did we arrive at this place
dancing the dance
a foul and paltry dance
with no advancement offered
what is the order of the pecking
is it faulty theorys we are wrecking
is it not real corn im eating?
is that your natural colour
or are you cheating.

I have a vital force to dance this dance
and so do you
an energy that exists
here and now
tis the instigator
of the force which i point you to.
a simple thing
thats all.*******

damnation, im not used to the quote facilites on here yet,my replies are above within the asterisks.


#95    The Proposer

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Posted 26 April 2004 - 11:06 AM

regarding your last post ,yes its obvious otherwise the universe would consist of multitude of random explosions,with no form the fact that it as form permeating it points to a controller and creator,atomc bundles,planets,planetary systems,galaxies,life forms etc would not exist,dont you understand this if you are tracing it back to a force then that force has to act on something,or that something must be formed by a force,energy is needed to enable us to witness the effects of gravity,personally i think gravity as never been aknowleged as a fundamental force,it is another of our assumptions that it is.


#96    PsychicPenguin

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Posted 26 April 2004 - 03:34 PM

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Imagine, if you will, a chicken, waving around what appears to be a paint brush, and insisting over and over that the world is flat, despite all evidence to the contrary, because a book (or rather, one of the many thousands upon thousands of flawed interpretations of a book) told him too.

When suddenly, along comes a beautiful (albiet pink haired) young woman, who extends her hand to him, attempting to bring him up to speed on what's actually going on, by showing him evidence, and structured arguements....but the chicken refused her aid, and clutched his book fiercly. You see, by now, the Chicken had grown so comfortable in his own little world, that common sense, logic, evidence, and even the fact that it could plainly be seen that his arguements were being blasted into the nether by the cute young girl, could no longer sway him.


laugh.gif  laugh.gif  laugh.gif

LOL Seraphina

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#97    PsychicPenguin

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Posted 26 April 2004 - 03:35 PM

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Why don't you instead, and please, without using another silly analogy, explain to me why you believe everything must be directed by an intelligent force, despite that intelligent force revealing absolutely no evidence whatsover of its existance?


I believe i haven't read any answer for this one ...  wink2.gif  


#98    chico del nacho

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Posted 26 April 2004 - 03:44 PM

QUOTE
Imagine, if you will, a chicken, waving around what appears to be a paint brush, and insisting over and over that the world is flat, despite all evidence to the contrary, because a book (or rather, one of the many thousands upon thousands of flawed interpretations of a book) told him too.

When suddenly, along comes a beautiful (albiet pink haired) young woman, who extends her hand to him, attempting to bring him up to speed on what's actually going on, by showing him evidence, and structured arguements....but the chicken refused her aid, and clutched his book fiercly. You see, by now, the Chicken had grown so comfortable in his own little world, that common sense, logic, evidence, and even the fact that it could plainly be seen that his arguements were being blasted into the nether by the cute young girl, could no longer sway him.


blink.gif that has changed my life. praise odin!  laugh.gif

so there i was, 30,000 feet straight up in a field of frozen yo-yos, then the string broke. i didn't falter. just kept on going man, cause i knew. i knew nirvana was straight around the corner. turned the corner and ran smack into betty crocker, she was runnina cross the sky yellin "you never outgrow your need for milk." i looked at her and said, "baby...you're somethin else."

i still vote for social democracy. it's like communism lite! only 1/3 the calories of normal communism!
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#99    Magikman

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Posted 26 April 2004 - 03:44 PM

Nor will you, anytime soon. As the initiator is no longer welcome here, there's little point in leaving this open.

Magikman

Skeptical scrutiny is the means, in both science and religion, by which deep insights can be winnowed from deep nonsense. ~ Carl Sagan

"...man has an irrepressible tendency to read meaning into the buzzing confusion of sights and sounds impinging on his senses; and where no agreed meaning can be found, he will provide it out of his own imagination." ~ Arthur Koestler




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