226 replies to this topic

[Yamato]

Br Cornelius, on 05 October 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

Essentially your misunderstanding Yamato is that you actually believe money isn't just an idea. You think that money is in some way an objective reality which isn't just a collective projection of our own minds. That is why you are trapped in a literalists version of money - the GOLD STANDARD.

Outside of the human imagination - can you point to any other example of money in reality. You may think this an insane distinction - but it is the real nature of money.

As such you really are on a different planet.

Br Cornelius

Thank you for describing me personally again I appreciate those debating skills.

I'm not stuck in the gold standard actually I'm stuck in fiat.  If money is an idea, base it on a fixed weight of something that you can store, exchange, transport, save, and has historical value.  Gold is such a thing.  It's got the longest history of any other form of money on the planet and it's never gone to zero.  Nothing is perfect.  Jesus Christ isn't coming with the magic fiat formula.   Everything goes up and down and everything always will.  I will continue asking for better alternatives to our current monetary policy and deferring to our historical solution for the lack of better alternatives that cannot match gold's combination of attributes to serve as a basis of money.   I'm not trying to save the planet from every theoretical characteristic of money you can think of on this discussion; I'm just trying to stabilize the dollar.   It's about more than ending the Fed, it's about ending the printing presses whether they're in the Congress's basement and thus closer to the people (and the Constitution) or in some secret bank that most Americans are completely naive and unwittingly complicit towards.   Whether we think money is an idea or not doesn't change that.    More QE and dumping money all over banks who are going to buy these hard assets up instead of lend it out to borrowers while you guys assure me that buying hard assets is not intelligent in a market where hard assets are going to the moon just doesn't seem to be accomplishing much here.   Because a medium of exchange is an idea (as if the value of everything isn't?) that's a good reason in and of itself to base it on something real.   Gold is real.  I know that's shocking to you.  I know that a modified fiat system would be a lot easier to swallow for you.   But I'm too naive to believe in the promises of government.  I would rather base my money on something that government can't print and no government can monopolize.

[Br Cornelius]

Paper is just as real as Gold. I am sorry to say that Gold is just a false security blanket which solves few of the real issues with money. Gold will be a fractional currency which leaves it open to just the same type of abuse as paper (infact the real currency will just be another form of paper). For all its supposed historical linage - the only form of Gold currency which has ever lasted long is one where Gold was the coinage - which aint ever going to happen again.

Br Cornelius

[DieChecker]

Yamato, on 08 October 2012 - 05:27 AM, said:

I'm not stuck in the gold standard actually I'm stuck in fiat.  

OK. So I am curious.

If fiat is horrible, then why does every single soveregn nation use the fiat system? To my knowledge no nation on the face of the Earth still uses a Metal Standard system, in any way. All money everywhere is fiat.

[acidhead]

why does every single sovereign nation use the fiat system?-- DC

--because each Sovereign Nation who has tried to trade with a currency other than the US$ gets ****--ing obliterated by the US military or the UN.  That is why.  The banks own Washington and the largest bank heist in history is occurring right now and its the banks doing the robbing.

[acidhead]

Br Cornelius, on 08 October 2012 - 06:11 AM, said:

Paper is just as real as Gold. I am sorry to say that Gold is just a false security blanket which solves few of the real issues with money. Gold will be a fractional currency which leaves it open to just the same type of abuse as paper (infact the real currency will just be another form of paper). For all its supposed historical linage - the only form of Gold currency which has ever lasted long is one where Gold was the coinage - which aint ever going to happen again.

Br Cornelius

Gold will be a fractional currency which leaves it open to just the same type of abuse as paper  --BR

You are incorrect.  In a fiat fractional reserve system the paper is abused because there is no restraint to print.  In a gold standard the market determines it's fractional value through restraint of it's holdings.  And more GOV ain't the answer.  I know you know that.

[DieChecker]

acidhead, on 09 October 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

why does every single sovereign nation use the fiat system?-- DC

--because each Sovereign Nation who has tried to trade with a currency other than the US$ gets ****--ing obliterated by the US military or the UN.  That is why.  The banks own Washington and the largest bank heist in history is occurring right now and its the banks doing the robbing.

That is simply a conspiricy theory. Why would Somalia, or Mongolia, or Cuba for that matter use a fiat system if it did not work? The US could NOT care less about most of the 3rd world, unless they have a resource that is in demand.

[Br Cornelius]

The very fact that the market has a say in the value of the "commodity" Gold is the best reason for not allowing it to be used as currency. The currency needs to be absent from market sentiment - it needs to be an a measure of value - not value itself.

Br Cornelius

[Yamato]

Br Cornelius, on 08 October 2012 - 06:11 AM, said:

Paper is just as real as Gold. I am sorry to say that Gold is just a false security blanket which solves few of the real issues with money. Gold will be a fractional currency which leaves it open to just the same type of abuse as paper (infact the real currency will just be another form of paper). For all its supposed historical linage - the only form of Gold currency which has ever lasted long is one where Gold was the coinage - which aint ever going to happen again.

Br Cornelius

No, paper goes to zero again and again and again.  It's a false hope that a proven failure is as "real" as something that's never failed.   You can't print gold obviously so your latest claim that it's "open to the same type of abuse" is false.

Gold is money when you can exchange it on the open market for whatever other currency you want to buy whatever your heart desires.   You can't do that with the "money" you've tried to peddle off as credible here lately.   You can buy gold, sell gold, store gold, and save gold.  The other ideas for "money" that can't be saved would be the most ruinous idea for an economy ever conceived.  It's the last clueless gasp of abandoning the concept of working and saving which we need a lot more of in this economy if we're going to have sustainable growth and prosperity.   The curtain has come up on this thread and the Keynesian werewolves revealed themselves beyond my wildest predictions.  What sounded like a slightly reasonable tenor in the beginning has turned into a Keynes-on-the-brains menage de trois.  Even Keynes and Greenspan exhibited caution in their theories and policies compared to the love affair with paper I've exposed here.

[questionmark]

acidhead, on 09 October 2012 - 03:13 AM, said:

Gold will be a fractional currency which leaves it open to just the same type of abuse as paper  --BR

You are incorrect.  In a fiat fractional reserve system the paper is abused because there is no restraint to print.  In a gold standard the market determines it's fractional value through restraint of it's holdings.  And more GOV ain't the answer.  I know you know that.

If the gold price is controlled by the market then in a gold standard currency there is no constant value, if controlled by the government, who is to stop the government from assigning gold twice the value and print twice the money?

The only ones to benefit from a gold standard are the mining companies, everybody else will just get harmed by it, like in the past.

[Br Cornelius]

Yamato, on 09 October 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

No, paper goes to zero again and again and again.  It's a false hope that a proven failure is as "real" as something that's never failed.   You can't print gold obviously so your latest claim that it's "open to the same type of abuse" is false.

Gold is money when you can exchange it on the open market for whatever other currency you want to buy whatever your heart desires.   You can't do that with the "money" you've tried to peddle off as credible here lately.   You can buy gold, sell gold, store gold, and save gold.  The other ideas for "money" that can't be saved would be the most ruinous idea for an economy ever conceived.  It's the last clueless gasp of abandoning the concept of working and saving which we need a lot more of in this economy if we're going to have sustainable growth and prosperity.   The curtain has come up on this thread and the Keynesian werewolves revealed themselves beyond my wildest predictions.  What sounded like a slightly reasonable tenor in the beginning has turned into a Keynes-on-the-brains menage de trois.  Even Keynes and Greenspan exhibited caution in their theories and policies compared to the love affair with paper I've exposed here.

Gold is a commodity - not a form of money.
It has never worked as a stable long term form of money in the last 200yrs.
We are not living 2000yrs ago so the comparison is not in any way meaningful to say it worked in the past - which past ?

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 09 October 2012 - 07:35 PM.

[Yamato]

DieChecker, on 08 October 2012 - 06:16 AM, said:

OK. So I am curious.

If fiat is horrible, then why does every single soveregn nation use the fiat system?

Because the essence of government is power.

[Br Cornelius]

Yamato, on 09 October 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

Because the essence of government is power.

And Gold solves that in what way ?

At this stage the whole discussion is all rather boring as no-one here is changing their position and no one here is learning anything new.
So unfortunately I am out.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 09 October 2012 - 07:37 PM.

[Yamato]

questionmark, on 09 October 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

If the gold price is controlled by the market then in a gold standard currency there is no constant value, if controlled by the government, who is to stop the government from assigning gold twice the value and print twice the money?

The only ones to benefit from a gold standard are the mining companies, everybody else will just get harmed by it, like in the past.

You've got it butt backwards.  The mining companies are benefiting right now thanks to you Keynesian lovers.   Prices of what they're digging out of the ground are skyrocketing thanks to warfare/welfare Statists.  I've never seen blindness to reality that I'm seeing here.

[Yamato]

Br Cornelius, on 09 October 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

Gold is a commodity - not a form of money.
It has never worked as a stable long term form of money in the last 200yrs.
We are not living 2000yrs ago so the comparison is not in any way meaningful to say it worked in the past - which past ?

Br Cornelius

Derp dee derp!

Now you're just lying.  Watch the video and acknowledge reality already.  Gold is a commodity and a sound basis for money because it uniquely enjoys the attributes you've learned about earlier in this discussion.

As the Deutsche Bank analysts Daniel Brebner and Xiao Fu said:
"While it is included in the commodities basket it is in fact a medium of exchange and one that is officially recognized (if not publicly used as such). We see gold as an officially recognized form of money for one primary reason: it is widely held by most of the world’s larger central banks as a component of reserves.   We would go further however, and argue that gold could be characterized as ‘good’ money as opposed to ‘bad’ money which would be represented by many of today’s fiat currencies. In describing gold as such we refer to Gresham’s Law – when a government overvalues one type of money and undervalues another, the undervalued money (good) will leave the country or disappear from circulation into hoards, while the overvalued money (bad) will flood into circulation.  In our view the ideal medium of exchange must balance the paradox of representing value while having little intrinsic value itself. There are very few media which can do this. Fiat currencies physically have no use other than that which is prescribed to them by government and accepted by the public. That fiat currencies cost little to produce is of a secondary concern and we believe, quite irrelevant to the primary purpose.Gold is neither production good nor consumption good. Jewelry we see as a form of storage or hoarding (the people of Portugal have all but exhausted their personal gold stores – hoarded in the form of jewelry – having converted them to survive the crisis). If gold did have a meaningful commercial use we believe that it would make the metal less attractive as a medium of exchange as the value of the metal in whatever market it was used in could periodically interfere with its medium-of-exchange role..."

[Yamato]

Br Cornelius, on 09 October 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

And Gold solves that in what way ?

At this stage the whole discussion is all rather boring as no-one here is changing their position and no one here is learning anything new.
So unfortunately I am out.

Br Cornelius

Because government can't produce infinite amounts of it.   If you're out, don't leave with questions that you know will be answered on my thread.  Good day.