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Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]


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#1861    Abramelin

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 12:06 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 07 November 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

The Dutch word "loof" (pronounced like 'loaf') means foliage, but it also used to mean leaf.

And an old Dutch word is "lover" (pronounced like 'loaver') or "lovre", which was the plural of 'loof'.

http://www.etymologi...trefwoord/loof1

liber

French

Pronunciation
IPA: /li.bɛʁ/, X-SAMPA: /li.bER/

Noun
liber m (plural libers)

bast (of a tree) [inner bark of trees from which ropes were made]


Etymology 2

Probably from an older form *luber and cognate to Old Church Slavonic лѹбъ (lubŭ, "bark of a tree") and Lithuanian lùpti ("to peel, to shell")



http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/liber

The bark/bast thing is also in the Dutch etymology site (see: "loof/lover")


+++

EDIT:


How to Make Birch Bark Paper
http://www.ehow.com/...bark-paper.html


Chinese paper was made from the layer of bast found under the bark of the mulberry tree, as well as rags and other waste.
http://www.ehow.com/...inventions.html

In the Eastern Han Dynasty (25-220), a court official named Cai Lun made a new kind of paper from bark, hemp, rags, fishnet, wheat stalks and other materials. It was relatively cheap, light, thin, durable and more suitable for brush writing.
http://www.chinacult...ntent_26514.htm


In India, the birch (Sanskrit: भुर्ज, bhurj) holds great historical significance in the culture of North India, where the thin bark coming off in winter was extensively used as writing paper. Birch paper (Sanskrit: भुर्ज पत्र, bhurj pətrə) is exceptionally durable and was the material used for many ancient Indian texts.This bark also has been used widely in ancient Russia as note paper (beresta) and for decorative purposes and even making footwear.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birch

Image:
http://upload.wikime...ocument_210.jpg
A birch bark inscription excavated from Novgorod, circa 1240–1260

.

Edited by Abramelin, 07 November 2012 - 12:29 PM.


#1862    Abramelin

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 02:36 PM

What did the Fryans use to make paper?


Anda ôra syde thêre Skelda hwêr hja tomet tha fêrt fon alle sêa haeve, thêr mâkath hja hjvd dêgon skriffilt fon pompa blêdar, thêr mith sparath hja linnent ut aend 'kaennath hja vs wel miste. Nêidam thaet skriffilt mâkja nv alti vs grâteste bydriv wêst is, sâ heth thju Moder wilt that maen et vs lêra skolde.

(Sandbach's tranlation, but improved by me):
On the other side (here: north) of the Scheldt, where from time to time there come ships from all seaports, they now make paper from water lily leaves ( http://fy.wikipedia....wiki/Pompeblêd ), by which they save linen and can do without us. Now, as the making of writing felt was always our principal industry, the mother willed that people should learn it from us.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#az


The quote tells us they initially used only "linnent" but that those living north of the Scheldt started using water lily leaves to save "linnent" and therefore could do without the help of those living south of the Scheldt (Kalta and her people).

Now everybody will think this 'linnent' is flax, right?

Linum (flax) is a genus of approximately 200 species in the flowering plant family Linaceae, native to temperate and subtropical regions of the world. It includes the Common Flax (L. usitatissimum), the bast fibre of which is used to produce linen and the seeds to produce linseed oil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linum


Then I started thinking: what tree would the Fryans have preferred to use for making paper? You know, the guys and girls from the Oera LINDA Book? The book that was in the possession of Cornelis Over de LINDEN? Those LINDA_wrda?

Yes, the "linnent" in the quoted line from the OLB could also have been made from... linden trees (lime trees):

In de oudheid werd van lindebast een soort tweezijdig beschrijfbaar papier gemaakt.
In ancient times a sort of two-sided writable paper was made from lime bark.

http://boomkompas.bl...8/08/linde.html


"Mogelijk is de naam linde afgeleid van het gebruik van de bast (linda = bindsel, maar ook wikkelen/draaien of winden. Een andere mogelijkheid is dat de naam betrekking heeft op het zachte hout. (...) Het Griekse 'tilos' betekent bast. Lindebast, ook 'phylira' genoemd, gebruikte men in de Oudheid als papier. In de tijd van Plinius sprak men van 'liber'. Het Engelse 'library' is hiervan afgeleid."

It is possible that the name "linde" is derived from the use of the bark (linda = binding), but also wrap / turn or winding. Another possibility is that the name refers to the soft and flexible wood. (...) The Greek 'tilos' means bark. Bast of linde/lime, also called 'phylira', was used in antiquity as paper. In Pliny's time they talked of 'liber'. The English word 'library' is derived from this word.

http://www.houtmetee...inde/index.html

For those who can read Dutch will see several times the word "lint" here:
http://www.etymologi...trefwoord/linde

It looks like someone combined "linnen" (= Dutch spelling of 'linen') with "lint" into "linnent"...



Rond 60 n. Chr. werd keizer Nero een serie boekrollen van lindebast overhandigd  
die in een graf op Kreta waren gevonden. Na onderzoek bleek het te gaan  
om een Phoenicisch handschrift van het Dagboek van de Trojaanse Oorlog van Dictys van Kreta.

Around 60 CE Emperor Nero was handed a series of lime bark scrolls found in a tomb on Crete. After examination it appeared to be a Phoenician manuscript of the Journal of the Trojan War by Dictys of Crete.

http://www.chaironei....nl/id100.htm††


lime (n.3)
"linden tree," 1620s, earlier line (c.1500), from M.E. lynde (early 14c.), from O.E. lind "lime tree" (see linden). Klein suggests the change of -n- to -m- probably began in compounds whose second element began in a labial (e.g. line-bark, line-bast).

http://www.etymonlin...owed_in_frame=0


#1863    lilthor

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 08:07 PM

So Over de Linden may have descended from an ancient lineage of paper-makers.

Possibly giving them a key role in creating and keeping written records of all types.

And making plausible the idea that this family would be inclined to pass along written keepsakes between generations.


#1864    Abramelin

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 08:09 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 07 November 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

This might come in handy:

An etymological dictionary of the French language (1873)
http://archive.org/s...age/n8/mode/1up

And so do these:

A Grammar of Proto-Germanic
Winfred P. Lehmann
Jonathan Slocum, ed.

Copyright © 2005-2007 by the Linguistics Research Center,
University of Texas at Austin.

http://www.utexas.ed...oks/pgmc00.html

GERMANIC AND THE RUKI DIALECTS1
By CHARLES PRESCOTT

University of Sussex
http://www.users.wai...escott/ruki.pdf


From Proto-Indo-European to Proto-Germanic: A Linguistic History of English: Volume I
Donald Ringe

Oxford University Press, 31 aug. 2006 - 368 pagina's
http://books.google....epage&q&f=false


#1865    Abramelin

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 08:22 PM

View Postlilthor, on 07 November 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

So Over de Linden may have descended from an ancient lineage of paper-makers.

Possibly giving them a key role in creating and keeping written records of all types.

And making plausible the idea that this family would be inclined to pass along written keepsakes between generations.

It might be, yes. Up to a couple of years ago there still was an Over de Linden printing house in Enkhuizen.

Well, I got inspired by Otharus 'Liber', and then things started rolling, lol.

I really never thought of lime bark/bast as a source for paper, but linden/lime trees must have been quite abundant in the ancient Low Lands before we started cutting them all down.

And I also had to think of herbal medicine as described in the OLB (and mentioned by Knul a couple of times) :

http://www.herbalsaf.../lindentree.pdf

http://www.herbsa2z..../lime_tree.html

http://botanical.com...l/limtre28.html


+++

EDIT:

And lime bark was used for many other things as well :

The more complex shoes worn by Ötzi the Iceman, who lived around 3300 BC, were bound with "shoelaces" made of lime bark string.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoelaces


THE RECONSTRUCTION OF WELLS AND LIME BARK BUCKETS FROM LIEPORIAI 1 SETTLEMENT

Lime bark, an axe, a knife, an awl, a hook for weaving
the string, as well as some wax, is needed for
the production of a bucket. The method of production
has been reconstructed and 150 buckets have
been made using this method. All the reconstructions
were demonstrated at festivals of experimental
archaeology in Poland, Latvia and Lithuania.


http://archive.minfo...h/9001/9144.pdf


If we want to find archeological proof of anything OLB, then things made from lime tree should be one of the first candidates.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 07 November 2012 - 08:27 PM.


#1866    Abramelin

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 08:44 PM

And again a bit more about the C(h)atti:


clann catti

Gaelic catanach; cat, a cat, SIr. catt, Cy. cath, Cor., kat, Br. kaz, Gaul, Cattos, a god of battle; Latin catta, English cat, German katze. Possibly of Celtic origin, applied at first to wild species and later to the Egyptian cats introduced at the time of Christianity. Similar to the W. cath, Cor. kat, and the Germ. katze. The word may thus confer with cath, a wild thing, a battle.

Sir Robert Gourdon (1630) said that in the reign of the Scottish King Corbred II, who was also called Gald, and who the Romans named Galgacus, the Roman emperor Domitian came to the Tayside and set up camp. He brought with him other German mercenaries who were later known as the Catti and the Vsippi. Unable to put down these powerful enemies, the King of the Scots welcomed them instead, giving the Germans the remote northwest which came to be called Cattey.

It is said that when the leader of the Catti first spied out his new digs he was attacked by wild cats, and having defeated them, the land was afterwards designated as "The Cattey." It was perhaps in memory of this dangerous adventure that the earls of this north land carried arms showing a cat ready to do battle. The Catti were said to be of the same blood as the Anglo-Saxons who also served as Roman mercenaries in wars against the Celts. Mercator's Atlas has equated the Catti with the Hessi, who also had the cat as their totem animal. As Hesse is the same name as the English Hugh and the Gaelic Aod, this is not improbable. The Morrayes, or Murrays, being of similar stock intermarried with the people of Cattey and the latter often served as high officials. in their land When the government of the Morrayes failed in the north east of the region it was partitioned into North and South Cattey, the latter sometimes being termed simply the Southerlands.


Read the rest here: http://rodneymackay.... files/Archived



About those Morrayes from the quote above.. could they have been the Morini??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morini


In 1630 Sir Robert Gordon of Gordonstoun published his "Genealogical History of the Earldom of Sutherland"  

He tells us that in the year A.D. 63 a "certain people called Morrayes," expelled from Germany, arrived in the Firth of Forth, and finding favour in the eyes of Corbred, king of Scotland, were settled in the region between the Spey and the Ness, thereafter called Morayland from its inhabitants. Thirty years later, in A.D. 91, another company of Germans arrived, who received lands to the north of Morayland, and gave their own name to the locality, calling it Cattey. But as they were of the same kin as their predecessors in Morayland, these Cattean Germans were also in time styled Morrayes, and "divers thaines and cheiftaynes of that stok and surname did successivelie governe and rule ther, one efter another."


http://tech.groups.y...21/message/7824


Let's not forget that anything coming from the south-east and east coasts of the North Sea was either Saxon or German in Scottish eyes.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 07 November 2012 - 08:55 PM.


#1867    Abramelin

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 09:11 PM

Damn, I do realize I post a bit much about things not directly related to the OLB, but I keep wondering why the Scots and Irish knew about the C(h)atti,  Menapi, Morini (ok,maybe) and Chauci, and that we don't read one single word about them in the OLB.

The Batavi and Cananefates were - like I already said - recent arrivals in the Low Lands, and that may be the reason they don't show up in the OLB, because the OLB ends around the time these Bats and Canans went on the move to the west and settled in the Low Lands.

The next I posted before, but it's just to show you these Scots and Irish probably did really know the ancient Frisians:


Before concluding, I wish to allude very shortly to a people mentioned
in the traditionary history of Ireland, whom I believe to be the same with
these early Frisian pirates. They are called in Irish tradition the Fomorians,
or Fomhoraidh, and appear throughout the whole traditionary history
as a race of sea-pirates, occasionally infesting the coasts, and occasionally
settling on its shores and subjugating its inhabitants.
They
are called in these legends African pirates ; but the same name of Africans
is attributed by Procopius, who has preserved Frisian and Saxon
traditions, to them. They are also called Lochlannaibh, which clearly
marks them out as being pirates from the north coast of Germany. An
early king is Bhreas, or the Frisian.
Their principal stronghold was on
a small island called Tory Island, where they had a fort called Tur
Conaing, after the name of a leader—Conaing, the Saxon for king. Their
chief seat, this small island called after a leader, being nearly parallel
to their chief seat in the Forth, likewise a small island called the city
of Guidi, whom I believe to be no other than the Guitta, son of Guechta,
of Nennius, and the Vitta, son of Vecta, of Bede, and who also appears
in the Pictish Chronicle as Guidid Gadbrechach. The word Fo-mor
means under the sea. The old Irish name for the low country lying east
of the Rhine was Tirfothuinn, the land under the waves, from its being
supposed to be lower than the sea; so was it also called Tirformor, the
land under the sea, and its inhabitants Fomorians or Fomhoraigh.


They appear in intimate connection with the Cruthens or Picts. It
would take too long to quote the numerous passages which show this
traditionary connection between them, but it runs through the whole of
their traditionary .history; and I cannot help suspecting that they have
left their name in the parish in the county of Aberdeenshire termed
Foveran, as the Cruthens have in the neighbouring parish of Cruden.

The reason that I mention this traditionary people is that they were
the great builders of Cyclopean forts in Ireland.

Two great fortresses, one called Bath Cimbaott in Dalaradia, now part
of Down, and another in Meath, are said in tradition to have been the
work of four celebrated builders of the Fomoraigh. Conaing, one of their
leaders, is said to have built a strong tower in Tory Island, on the coast
of Donegal, hence called Torinis; and Balar Beman, another famous
champion of the Fomorians, erected another fort oh Torinis called Dunard
Balair, a great fort of Balar.

But above all, the great Cyclopean fort of Aelech, or Aelech Fririn, in
Londonderry—said in old poem, of all the works of Erin the oldest is
Aelech Fririn—is said to have been erected by Gaibhan and Fririn, two
celebrated builders of the Fomoraigh.

The fortress of Aelech was of a circular form, built of large stones
well fitted together and of great strength, constructed in the style of
Cyclopean architecture. There are still considerable remains of the
stone fortress, and the wall varies from ten to fifteen feet in thickness, and
is of immense strength. The circumference of this building was almost
100 yards, and it was surrounded by three great earthen ramparts.

If in these traditions of the Fomhoraigh there is preserved some recollections
of these forerunners of the Saxons and Angles, those Frisians
who under the generic name of Saxons first invested our coasts and made
settlements on our shores, it is probable that we must attribute to them
many of those stupendous hill forts which are to be found within no
great distance from the eastern shore, and especially those which crown
the summits of the hills termed "Laws,"
and probably many of the sepulchral
remains; while it is not impossible that the Cat Stane, with its inscription
of "In hoc turpulo jacet Vettafilius Victi," may commemorate
by a Eoman hand the tomb of their first leader Vitta, son of Vecta, the
traditionary grandfather of Hengist and Horsa.


http://ads.ahds.ac.u...4/4_169_181.pdf

"Laws"??

(...)
Taexali: a group of very probably Frisian settlers (lived near a bay in Scotland that was once called Frisian Bay); did they come from Texel (old name Texla) after the flood in 360 or 350 BC, a flood mentioned by the Frisian historiographer Schotanus? Same could be true for the aforementioned tribes. Some of their hillforts were called "Laws" (think OLB citadel on Texland; the etymology of Texla is based on a Germanic word for direction, "to the right". But 'right' has also another meaning aside from a direction...LAW. )
(...)

http://www.unexplain...5


.

Edited by Abramelin, 07 November 2012 - 09:45 PM.


#1868    Otharus

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 10:07 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 07 November 2012 - 07:23 AM, said:

eleven
c.1200, elleovene, from O.E. endleofan, lit. "one left" (over ten), from P.Gmc. *ainlif- (cf. O.S. elleban, O.Fris. andlova, Du. elf, O.H.G. einlif, Ger. elf, O.N. ellifu, Goth. ainlif), a compound of *ain "one" (see one) + PIE *leikw- "leave, remain" (cf. Gk. leipein "to leave behind;" see relinquish).

Great, Abe.

Silly me, to forget about E-leven ("leven" in Dutch is life or to live), when 2-LIF is twelve.

And now we can reconstruct what 11 might have been spelled in Fryan: ENLIF or ÉNLIF (in modern Dutch: elf).

Edited by Otharus, 07 November 2012 - 10:15 PM.


#1869    Otharus

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 10:12 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 07 November 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

Well, I got inspired by Otharus 'Liber', and then things started rolling, lol.

I really never thought of lime bark/bast as a source for paper, but linden/lime trees must have been quite abundant in the ancient Low Lands before we started cutting them all down.

Neither did I.
Valuable finds, Abe.
Wonderful how we inspire each other here.


#1870    Otharus

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 11:00 PM

Time for some comic relief, and not completely irrelevant, IMO.

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

Edited by Otharus, 07 November 2012 - 11:02 PM.


#1871    The Puzzler

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 04:46 AM

I edited out a post by Abe that I'm replying to, just to cut down on loadspace.

I was thinking of words like loofah and then lovage,because lovage is basically a leafy herb. To whit, I wouldn't be surprised if it really just etymologically was leafage - like foliage, leafage is a name used around for a multitude of leafy substances, why wouldn't that be the name of lovage, which is exactly what is, contrare to this guess.

The name 'lovage' is from "love-ache", ache being a medieval name for parsley; this is a folk-etymological corruption of the older French name levesche, from late Latin levisticum, in turn thought to be a corruption of the earlier Latin ligusticum, "of Liguria" (northwest Italy), where the herb was grown extensively
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lovage

A loofah again, is from a leafy vine that grows a cucumber type thing on it, that is used as the skin cleaning or washing up loofah, so again, it comes from a leafy plant and supposedly based on Arabic 'luf'.

Edited by The Puzzler, 08 November 2012 - 04:59 AM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#1872    NO-ID-EA

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 08:19 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 07 November 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

What did the Fryans use to make paper?


uote tells us they initially used only "linnent" but that those living north of the Scheldt started using water lily leaves to save "linnent" and therefore could do without the help of those living south of the Scheldt (Kalta and her people).

Yes, the "linnent" in the quoted line from the OLB could also have been made from... linden trees (lime trees):

It is possible that the name "linde" is derived from the use of the bark (linda = binding), but also wrap / turn or winding. Another possibility is that the name refers to the soft and flexible wood. (...) The Greek 'tilos' means bark. Bast of linde/lime, also called 'phylira', was used in antiquity as paper. In Pliny's time they talked of 'liber'. The English word 'library' is derived from this word.

For those who can read Dutch will see several times the word "lint" here:
http://www.etymologi...trefwoord/linde

It looks like someone combined "linnen" (= Dutch spelling of 'linen') with "lint" into "linnent"...

Around 60 CE Emperor Nero was handed a series of lime bark scrolls found in a tomb on Crete. After examination it appeared to be a Phoenician manuscript of the Journal of the Trojan War by Dictys of Crete.



lime (n.3)
"linden tree," 1620s, earlier line (c.1500), from M.E. lynde (early 14c.), from O.E. lind "lime tree" (see linden). Klein suggests the change of -n- to -m- probably began in compounds whose second element began in a labial (e.g. line-bark, line-bast).



Interesting.........From Abe's post of PIE to German "linkw" also means left behind , linkw could also be lingw in the usual transfer of k to g ,

"lingo" is common slang in English for language...... and lingo would then be ..lin = leave behind.. and go ...........write your message on a tree and go ?



According to Higgins , because the very early Alphabet was made up of the first letter of different trees , you could also leave a message for people "left behind" by stringing different tree leaves on a twig , which could be read later by the finder .


#1873    Otharus

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 09:15 AM

It must be an important root-word involved, since LINGUA and LINGAM seem to be linked as well.

Oer-Lingua


#1874    Abramelin

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 12:31 PM

The time period the narrative of the OLB takes place lies between around 2200 BCE and a bit before 0 CE.
What was the heartland or the most important area? Texland, or Texel and Westfriesland (a district in the province of North-Holland).
Well, a scientific research is about to start in exactly that area for the period between 2000 and 800 BCE :



Posted Image

Archaeological research of coastal farming communities on the southern North Sea coast, 2000-800 BC

Farmers of the coast is a research project revolving around the thesis that Bronze Age coastal communities were thriving farming communities with their own cultural identity and with a central position in communication networks.

There is hardly a region thinkable that is better suited for studying prehistoric communities on the North Sea coast than the Netherlands. Not only was its location central in a traffic geographical sense, but also can the Netherlands boast of having one of the best preserved Bronze Age landscapes in north-western Europe: the fossil landscapes of West Frisia. Therefore the project focuses on these extensively excavated but poorly published archaeological sites as case study of coastal farming communities.

This research project is funded by the Dutch Science Foundation (NWO) and Leiden University. The project is based at Leiden University under direction of prof. Harry Fokkens.


http://www.westfrisia.com/index.html


Research questions
The project has sevaral overall goals, which are being discussed in four sub-projects:
The aim of this project is to investigate Bronze Age wetland communities along the southern North Sea coast.


1. What were the environmental conditions of the dynamic wetlands along the southern North Sea and how did coastal development in general take place in the Bronze Age (between c. 2000 and 800 cal BC)? To what extent did the physical and biotic landscape determine possibilities for habitation, subsistence, accessibility and contacts?

2. How was the cultural landscape organised? How were settlements structured and how were farms, arable land, grazing grounds, badlands, cemeteries situated with respect to each other?

3. What was the subsistence economy of coastal communities? What were their farming and possibly hunting practices? How did they combine arable farming and stockbreeding into a sustainable form of agriculture over several hundreds of years?

4. Which aspects of material culture, practices and possibly also ideology are particular for coastal (wetland) communities? Can we detect indications for a central position in communication networks of goods and people along the coast?



Reconsidering models of the past

Existing models and explanations ar all based on interpretational models of a few decades agoo. Some of these will still hold-up against new analyses, but others will have to be replaced. Our approach is to re-investigate criteria and inferences of thes models of the past and confront them again with the data. For exmaple: the matter of 'grain circles'.

These circles are interpreted as ditches that were dug around shoves of grain, at means of harvest storage therefore. This interpretation is based on research of two so-called pit circles with carbonised grains at Twisk (Buurman 1987).

Though we do not question the research done by Buurman, one can question the conclusion that the carbonised grain is an indication for the function of these pit circles and related circular ditches.


Posted Image

During one of our research meetings, Corry Bakels raised the question how one could plough an arable if the field was riddled with ditched circular structures and pits. That is the kind of questions that no one has asked yet and that eventually will lead to entirely different interpretations of the existing data.

http://www.westfrisi...-questions.html


Project 1 The landscape of Westfrisia
drs. Wilco van Zijverden

Research questions:

1. How was the physical landscape of West Frisia structured, how did it develop between 2000 and 800 cal BC?
2. Which parts were favoured for settlement?
3. Which restraints and opportunities did it offer people?


(...)

http://www.westfrisi...-landscape.html


Project 2 Settlements in context
Drs. Wouter Roessingh

Rationale: In order to understand how the Bronze Age cultural landscape was structured and how subsistence was organised (sub-project 3) we have to study how settlements were structured and how farms, arable land, grazing grounds, wetlands, cemeteries were situated with respect to each other.

(...)

http://www.westfrisi...ettlements.html

Someone (Nico Bregman) said in a comment he visited the dig and contacted a Christian van der Linde.
http://www.westfrisi...n.html#comments

And this Van der Linde is an archeologist from the Leiden University !! Lol.

http://www.dewerkend...rjaar200901.pdf


#1875    The Puzzler

The Puzzler

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 01:35 PM

Yes, I gave that link some pages back, Otharus saw it but good to revise it, it should be an important study and I'll be watching for the results.

In an mmm bop it's gone...




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