Male privilege a myth?

[spartan max2]

Was just curious of peoples thoughts on this. Personally I think the whole "male privilege" thing is just a myth. Used to gain voter points. Cause as a male iv never seen how Im somehow more privileged because of it.... p*** on me and tell me its raining

http://thelibertaria...d/#.VI5HtyvF9ns

Edited December 15, 2014 by spartan max2

[Likely Guy]

Maybe all the guys in the 'Old Boys Club' got too old and died?

Then again, 100% of US preidents have been men.

Edit: How is this a political issue and not a gender issue?

Edited December 15, 2014 by Likely Guy

[Stubbly_Dooright]

You know, I don't know if I had that particular term before. Or had I, I'm not sure. Anyways, yeah, it's a man's world, the war on women, yadda yadda yadda. Granted, looking at the graph you presented, men more than women tend to suffer more, but wouldn't it be relative? The amount of deaths of men to women in war, when you still have some form of barriers to women in combat and such. Male suicides that succeeded, in ration to women's but do more women attempt suicide and just not succeed? What if, I am hoping I'm being seen as a devil advocate, it's still male privilege because more men get into such areas. Granted, you think of other situations where you have women and children first into the lifeboats, and yeah, then definately that is one place you don't see it.

[spartan max2]

Maybe all the guys in the 'Old Boys Club' got too old and died?

Then again, 100% of US preidents have been men.

Edit: How is this a political issue and not a gender issue?

I wasn't really sure what section to put it in. I was going to put it in psychology

Edited December 15, 2014 by spartan max2

[Likely Guy]

...Male suicides that succeeded, in ration to women's but do more women attempt suicide and just not succeed?

Men tend to use a gun. Women tend to use pills. It's much easier to pump someone's stomach than try and pump a bullet out of someone's head, successfully.

[Likely Guy]

I wasn't really sure what section to put it in. I was going to put it in psychology

Well, see which way the conversation leads. You can always ask to get it moved.

Edit: It's just that a lot of non-Americans avoid this part of the forum.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Likely Guy

[Peter B]

Was just curious of peoples thoughts on this. Personally I think the whole "male privilege" thing is just a myth. Used to gain voter points. Cause as a male iv never seen how Im somehow more privileged because of it.... p*** on me and tell me its raining

http://thelibertaria...d/#.VI5HtyvF9ns

Yes, men have advantages in all sorts of areas over women. Call it male privilege if you wish.

In one of my former jobs I had to collate employment data for statistical purposes - things like the number of male and female employees, their salaries, overtime, stuff like that. At each rank, women earned about 10-20% less than men who were doing the same job. They also earned about a third less in overtime.

As for the graphic in your OP, that's a pretty selective range of data points. How about a few other percentages? What proportion of civilian deaths in war are women? I suspect a lot higher than 3%. What proportion of the world's wealth or property is owned by women? What percentage of men and women are subjected to sexual assault? What percentage of sexually assaulted women are blamed for the actions of the person who attacked them?

[danielost]

Yes, men have advantages in all sorts of areas over women. Call it male privilege if you wish.

In one of my former jobs I had to collate employment data for statistical purposes - things like the number of male and female employees, their salaries, overtime, stuff like that. At each rank, women earned about 10-20% less than men who were doing the same job. They also earned about a third less in overtime.

As for the graphic in your OP, that's a pretty selective range of data points. How about a few other percentages? What proportion of civilian deaths in war are women? I suspect a lot higher than 3%. What proportion of the world's wealth or property is owned by women? What percentage of men and women are subjected to sexual assault? What percentage of sexually assaulted women are blamed for the actions of the person who attacked them?

over time is time and a half. i don't see how women can get less than that, since it is the law. also are talking just the job titles or including time on job. most jobs everyone gets a regular pay raise of some kind.

[Kenemet]

Let me point to a very famous essay "White Privilege: unpacking the backpack" http://www.uakron.edu/centers/conflict/docs/whitepriv.pdf

Since some of you won't have time to read it all, let me summarize:

The case is made that we all have a "backpack" we are given at birth -- resources we can draw on. Some have more in their backpacks than others. Here's how the author approached the idea of "do I have more privilege?"

I decided to try to work on myself at least by identifying some of the daily effects of white privilege in my life. I have chosen those conditions which I think in my case attack some what more to skin-color privilege hat to class, religion, ethnic status, or geographical location, though of course all these other factors are intricately intertwined. As far as I can see, my African American co-worker, friends and acquaintances with whom I come into daily or frequent contact in this particular time, place, and line of work cannot count on most of these conditions.

So here's the points from the essay that also apply to women:

* If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live. (not always a given for women. During my lifetime, I have had to have father/ex-husband cosign leases even though I had the income to cover the payments.

* I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me. (young women often get catcalled, even by neighbors.)

* I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed. (many women do not feel safe walking to their cars alone at night)

* I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented. (Fat, homely men are often seen on tv and often seen in the role of the geeky hero. James Bond might be 70, and the 'most fascinating man in the world' might be 80, but old women or fat women are treated as victims or as undesirables .)

* When I am told about our national heritage or about “civilization,” I am shown that people of my color made it what it is. (Very few women make the history books, and many women scientists have had their work appropriated by male colleagues.)

* I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them. (many in authority don't take young women's complaints seriously.)

* I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty, or the illiteracy of my race. (Have you ever noticed how many news articles comment on the clothes a woman is wearing? A man's clothing is seldom mentioned. Dressing unfashionably is a sure call for the comments on a news story to turn very ugly if the subject is a woman. Men's outfits are not cause for public uproar as a rule.

* I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial. (A friend who speaks for environmental issues said that municipal and regional groups ignored her -- until she got a PhD -- while paying attention to and acting on the recommendations of men who had no college degrees or had at best a Bachelors'. If there were no male privilege, her suggestions would have been taken more seriously much earlier.

* I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to “the person in charge,” I will be facing a person of my gender. (changed "race" to "gender." While this is more true now than it was in the past, it's not generally true.)

* I can go home from most meetings of organizations (where both sexes are present) I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance, or feared. (added "where both sexes are present" because women often feel as though their suggestions are not given equal weight in many places.)

* I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of (gender). (I've actually been on jobs where men quit rather than work for a woman.)

* I can choose public accommodation without fearing ...(I)... will be mistreated in the places I have chosen. (Many women are uncomfortable riding buses and subways alone)

* I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my (gender) will not work against me. (having doctors and lawyers treat you as if you're a large and somewhat dimwitted child is common for women. This is especially true for older women.)

It doesn't mean men are bad/awful/whatever. It means that the system has been rigged this way for a long time. It was more badly broken in the past, but for today, women would like to see people on tv like themselves (where the homely and fat woman gets all the hot studs, where reporters talk about a woman's opinions and not her wardrobe, etc, etc.)

[Peter B]

over time is time and a half.

Well, where I worked (in Australia) it was a variety of rates depending on when it was worked.

i don't see how women can get less than that, since it is the law.

No, they didn't get a lower rate. They just got noticeably less overtime. The women I spoke to said it was because the supervisors (mostly male) would usually ask their (male) mates first if they wanted overtime, and only then ask other team members.

also are talking just the job titles or including time on job. most jobs everyone gets a regular pay raise of some kind.

These were people who were on the same salary, with the women earning less. In this case the difference was penalty rates - additional pay for working night shifts or weekend shifts. The proportion of shiftworkers who were male was higher than the proportion of all employees who were male.

[Careful_perspective]

That picture is RIDICULOUS and is just cherry picking statistics.

97 percent of combat deaths are men, HOWEVER, what is the number of men in the military versus women. Furthermore what is the amount of men in combat situations versus women. Of course men make up a bigger percentage of the deaths, because they make up the vast majority of the military.

More men are victims of homicide is a scary statistic. But perhaps it would lose some of its potency when compared with a statistic of who is committing these homicides. Furthermore, we should look at the conditions surrounding the homicides. I am betting most of these are gang violence crimes, men killing other men.

Industrial accidents can be looked at the same way as the combat deaths. What are the amount of women currently working in an industrial environment versus men. I assume, like the military it is much more men than women therefore they would be more likely to be in an accident.

The only comment I can make on the suicide is that suicide is very unfortunate and no one should ever feel so low that they feel like their only choice is to end their own life.

And finally, with the custody statstic, I think it's also unfortunate that in some cases men aren't awarded custody even though they are very obviously qualified.

I could very easily cherry pick statistics that would be as shocking as the above. Most of them would involve sexual abuse and inequality in the workplace. Which is where I think the root of the idea of male privalage comes from. From the long dark history of sexual and physical abuse being largely in the arena of men being the perpetrator and women being the victim.

Edited December 15, 2014 by woodsbooger

[Peter B]

Let me point to a very famous essay "White Privilege: unpacking the backpack" http://www.uakron.ed...s/whitepriv.pdf

Since some of you won't have time to read it all, let me summarize:

The case is made that we all have a "backpack" we are given at birth -- resources we can draw on. Some have more in their backpacks than others. Here's how the author approached the idea of "do I have more privilege?"

So here's the points from the essay that also apply to women:

...

* I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty, or the illiteracy of my race. (Have you ever noticed how many news articles comment on the clothes a woman is wearing? A man's clothing is seldom mentioned. Dressing unfashionably is a sure call for the comments on a news story to turn very ugly if the subject is a woman. Men's outfits are not cause for public uproar as a rule.

...

Interesting article in the paper today about the Prime Minister's Chief of Staff, who's been copping abuse from politicians on her own side. It appears that women in politics have a tough time, regardless of their party. When she was Prime Minister, Julia Gillard experienced a lot of commentary about her clothing and a whole bunch of other issues that male politicians are almost never asked about: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/comment/sisters-must-break-silence-on-sexist-attacks-on-peta-credlin-20141214-1266jf.html

Peta Credlin has been pilloried as the co-Prime Minister, the Boss and the Enforcer. She's apparently formidable, driven and, of course, a control freak. Her hair, her height, her preference for leopard prints have become suitable subjects for public discussion engendering suspicion, scuttlebutt and background briefings.

Search back through recent political history and it is impossible to find a similar level of hostility or scrutiny of any previous chief of staff to a prime minster of either hue, blue or red. Arthur Sinodinos, Grahame Morris, Don Russell, Ben Hubbard: beige men in grey suits with immense influence and all central to the success of the Prime Minister's office (PMO) and the success (or not) of their incumbent governments.

[spartan max2]

Before I start replying I just want to make a statement that the stats are more for starting the discussion as a spring board then solely about them.

I know they are cherry picked.

Edited December 15, 2014 by spartan max2

[Gunn]

Last time I checked, us males have the most important privilege of all because we don't have to physically bear children.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Purifier

[Careful_perspective]

Max, I see you posting around here often and I usually agree with you. But I just think that you used a really poor example to convey your point.

I also want to say that I don't think being a white male is as much of a privilege as it once was. But I still think there are many ways in which it is a privilege to be a man. Especially when looking at sex issues.

[bubblykiss]

I invoke male privilege in any situation that calls for cannibalism.

I always shout "women and children first!"

[+joc]

Male privilege goes back to the cave man days when:

Okay, see I go out and kill something, drag it home and throw it at my girl and grunt something like...cook. She rolls her eyes and goes about sweeping the cave...at which point...I grab her by the hair, drag her across the cave, slam her head into the cave wall, and grunt again...something like...cook!

She gets up and cooks the kill.

Point...there is a privilege associated with being male...I kill it...You cook it. Male Privilege.

...at some point however all that got turned around when woman realized that the couch man had created could be used against him...and so...ahem...feminism was born...end of male privilege...

[spartan max2]

First off I dont deny the historic fact that women throughout most of history and cultures where treated as lesser citizens. Without the same rights and freedoms. But in todays time we have equal rights and there are laws that require equal pay. And some people keep wanting to claim that your "privileged" to be a male.

It seems like the modern day mainstream "feminist" though is that every guy is secretly a sexist. If your not making enough money at work then it is obviously because you are a women. No one respects you because you are a women. But if you are a man clearly everything is easier for you.

I guess what I really am trying to talk about it the double standard that I see. Take the stats I posted for example. The one stat that is legit and important is the 80% suicide of males ( I even looked that one up to see if it was true). My point is if that was the other way around people would be flipping out and saying all these things about male privilege but because its men then thats okay.

And the fact that more women are getting college educated then men now same with high school dropout rates( I think) both in the U.S. When its the other way around people freak out because of male domination but if its men then its okay because its only men. We are privileged anyways.

People want to complain about the women body image on tv. Because the actress look too good its unrealistic we cant relate. But no one cares that most guy actors also look quite good and built. But guys are suppose to just deal with it.

In todays western society I really dont see how women are any less off. It seems to be something from my point of view in most peoples heads.

Or if we look at it with a flipped view, women are supposedly privileged because when women walk at night there is a rare chance that they will get attacked. Even though with that same manner of thinking men would be less privileged because if your walking at night you probably look more suspicious and people will be afraid you will hurt them. And then in court they will most likely go easier on a women against men due to societies tendency's to protect the women and children first.

My thoughts anyways

Edit: basically to me it seems the same as putting women down back in the day because "ohh you'er just a silly women". now it seems like "ohh you'er just a privileged male, feel guilty like is easier for you, you guys dont understand what we have to go through"

Edited December 15, 2014 by spartan max2

[spartan max2]

Max, I see you posting around here often and I usually agree with you. But I just think that you used a really poor example to convey your point.

I also want to say that I don't think being a white male is as much of a privilege as it once was. But I still think there are many ways in which it is a privilege to be a man. Especially when looking at sex issues.

Im glad to hear that first part lol

but its okay. I knew my thread was going to be a unpopular opinion.

[Likely Guy]

I guess what I really am trying to talk about it the double standard that I see. Take the stats I posted for example. The one stat that is legit and important is the 80% suicide of males ( I even looked that one up to see if it was true).

While I see your point, did you read my earlier post?

Men tend to shoot themselves in the head (sometimes, unfortunately, their mate first). Women tend to attempt an overdose or slit their wrists. The latter cases are much more survivable, the former, not so much.

Edit: A more compelling case might be, 'which sex is more likely to attempt suicide'. I'll let someone else determine the results.

2nd edit: Ah nevermind, I just looked it up. "While females tend to show higher rates of reported nonfatal suicidal behavior, males have a much higher rate of completed suicide."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide

Edited December 15, 2014 by Likely Guy

[spartan max2]

While im on my soap box im going to share this video. 40% of domestic abuse is against males. Watch the different public reactions when it happens to a women as opposed to a man. No one takes it serious. Which goes back to my point of how women get it easier in court. What privilege.

The video is really worth watching. its a minutes and 50 seconds

Edited December 15, 2014 by spartan max2

[spartan max2]

While I see your point, did you read my earlier post?

Men tend to shoot themselves in the head (sometimes, unfortunately, their mate first). Women tend to attempt an overdose or slit their wrists. The latter cases are much more survivable, the former, not so much.

Edit: A more compelling case might be, 'which sex is more likely to attempt suicide'. I'll let someone else determine the results.

2nd edit: Ah nevermind, I just looked it up. "While females tend to show higher rates of reported nonfatal suicidal behavior, males have a much higher rate of completed suicide."

Source: http://en.wikipedia....nces_in_suicide

Its possibly but 80% is still a big difference for only failed attempts vs successful attempts.

But my point is still more societies reactions to the two. If it was the other way around there would be outrage and you could bet the pundits would bring it up claiming some sort of patriarchal society reason

[Yamato]

My girlfriend has most of the power in our relationship, and she reminds me that this is because she's the woman. I have no problem with that either. I pick my battles but not very often.

Women pay men more than they pay women. It's been said that women who own businesses even pay themselves less. So what's up with that? Do women, due perhaps to traditional roles, mores, etc, value earning money less than men? Do they value health care more, and willingly pay more out of their salary to get it? Are they less likely to leave a more secure employer for another employer who pays a higher salary? There's nothing inherently wrong with that. There is something wrong with playing with statistics and presumptuously assuming what the problem is for political and monetary gain via govt for their group.

[Yamato]

Here's what should be sufficient proof of female privilege:

http://youtu.be/K6QidUPbkG0

I don't have a problem with this privilege, although it's going to raise questions in my mind about this subject while we're questioning male privilege.

[Odin11]

Here's what should be sufficient proof of female privilege:

[media=]http://youtu.be/K6QidUPbkG0[/media]

Thank you both for posting these videos. They showed exactly what I was going to write about. But the really sick thing abut this double standard is that if the guys tried to defend themselves people would have been on them in a second.