Christianity without God?

[+Sherapy]

Is it plausible, feasable that Christianity could outgrow the need for beleifs or God ? Or is this crazy talk?

What do you think?

Let's discuss this!

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2013/09/must-a-christian-believe-in-god-godless-christianity/

Thank you Abernol for the great idea!

[+Hammerclaw]

Is it plausible, feasable that Christianity could outgrow the need for beleifs or God ? Or is this crazy talk?

What do you think?

Let's discuss this!

http://www.patheos.c...s-christianity/

Thank you Abernol for the great idea!

We already live in a synthesis of religion and culture based on Christianity, so it is possible to be a cultural Christian while eschewing Faith and Belief in God. In some older denominations I would submit it already is the rule rather than the exception. For many, Church is more of a social gathering celebrating tradition rather than celebrating the Risen Christ.

[+Sherapy]

We already live in a synthesis of religion and culture based on Christianity, so it is possible to be a cultural Christian while eschewing Faith and Belief in God. In some older denominations I would submit it already is the rule rather than the exception. For many, Church is more of a social gathering celebrating tradition rather than celebrating the Risen Christ.

Which older denominations?

I have not heard many call themselves a Christian and not believe in God or some of the beliefs of Christianity.

I once had a Philosophy Proffessor ( Ethics) who labeled himself as an Agnostic theist, though.

My Dad doesn't believe in heaven.

But a Christian that didn't believe/ doesn't believe in God? It is interesting as heck to me. Wow!

I would love to meet some one who takes this position.

Great post Hammer.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Sherapy

[Habitat]

I saw a newspaper street survey asking whether people intended to visit a church over Easter. Most of the younger people were completely disconnected with Easter as anything other than an extended long week-end. A few of the older people said they used to attend church at Easter once, but times have changed, and "nobody goes these days". But they still maintained they adhered to the "values" represented. Whatever that means. Which confirms the view that in the past, church attendance was a way of showing conformity to social norms. I'd say a lot of people name a religion on the census form, but don't necessarily adhere to the teachings of it, although nominally "Christian". Maybe that is how you can have Christians that don't credit the existence of God.

[+Hammerclaw]

Which older denominations?

I have not heard many call themselves a Christian and not believe in God or some of the beliefs of Christianity.

I once had a Philosophy Proffessor ( Ethics) who labeled himself as an agnostic theist.

My Dad doesn't believe in heaven.

But a Christian that didn't believe/ doesn't believe in God? It is interesting as heck to me. Wow!

I would love to meet some one who takes this position.

What Church Doctrine is officially and what each member of the congregation actually believe can be quite different things. As to which denominations I refer to, non Calvinist ones. I have encountered more apostate Catholics and Anglican/Episcopalians than all other Christian denominations combined. It doesn't necessarily mean Calvinist Protestants are more religious. Becoming a Christian church member is a conscious adult decision in those Churches, one that less than half make on becoming adults, whereas infant baptism into the Church is usually the rule in the others. It's a lot easier to lose your religion if you never consciously embraced it in the first place. Edited April 1, 2016 by Hammerclaw

[+Sherapy]

I saw a newspaper street survey asking whether people intended to visit a church over Easter. Most of the younger people were completely disconnected with Easter as anything other than an extended long week-end. A few of the older people said they used to attend church at Easter once, but times have changed, and "nobody goes these days". But they still maintained they adhered to the "values" represented. Whatever that means. Which confirms the view that in the past, church attendance was a way of showing conformity to social norms. I'd say a lot of people name a religion on the census form, but don't necessarily adhere to the teachings of it, although nominally "Christian". Maybe that is how you can have Christians that don't credit the existence of God.

Thanks for your thoughts Habitat.

Yeah, this is an interesting point. I think a great argument could be made for the diversity of beliefs as far as Christianity goes in a modern day as you have outlined.

But how would Christianity be without God?

Have you met anyone who espouses Christianity, yet doesn't believe in God?

Edited April 1, 2016 by Sherapy

[Habitat]

Not only is there no recognizable Christianity without a God, there is no Christianity without a belief the resurrection actually occurred. Most would turn away from the church in a heart-beat, if it could be shown the resurrection is fiction.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Habitat

[+Hammerclaw]

There's already group which began in the West which has been described--by one it's founders, no less--as a religion without a God, called Secular Humanism or just Humanism.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Hammerclaw

[psyche101]

Is it plausible, feasable that Christianity could outgrow the need for beleifs or God ? Or is this crazy talk?

What do you think?

Let's discuss this!

http://www.patheos.c...s-christianity/

Thank you Abernol for the great idea!

I am not entirely sure I understand the point that is just secular values isn't it?

From the link:

That is, they denied theistic realism—any reality of God except as a cipher for some dimension of nature or human spirituality.

How is that not Atheism? Dawkins identifies as a "6" on his own scale from "The God Delusion"

Which is:

The above strikes me as a "6" on this scale also? Is it just refusing to let go the remnants of relgion?

Edited April 1, 2016 by psyche101

[psyche101]

Thanks for your thoughts Habitat.

Yeah, this is an interesting point. I think a great argument could be made for the diversity of beliefs as far as Christianity goes in a modern day as you have outlined.

But how would Christianity be without God?

Have you met anyone who espouses Christianity, yet doesn't believe in God?

As you and Habitat are speaking about Easter........

I find it terribly confusing nowadays. Adam gave us original sin, which infected us all with sin, which Jesus had to die on the cross to absolve.

Now the Church admits the story of Adam is an allegory and admits Evolution is valid.

So who committed the original sin, infecting us all, that Jesus died to absolve us all of?

So does the Church even believe in Jesus and God? Adam is an allegory that got Jesus killed, so what is the validity of the story of Jesus's death? How long till it becomes a "metaphor" as well?

[Habitat]

You're not a "7" ?

[Habitat]

As you and Habitat are speaking about Easter........

I find it terribly confusing nowadays. Adam gave us original sin, which infected us all with sin, which Jesus had to die on the cross to absolve.

Now the Church admits the story of Adam is an allegory and admits Evolution is valid.

So who committed the original sin, infecting us all, that Jesus died to absolve us all of?

So does the Church even believe in Jesus and God? Adam is an allegory that got Jesus killed, so what is the validity of the story of Jesus's death? How long till it becomes a "metaphor" as well?

When will it dawn on you that the church has got no franchise agreement with God ? If you don't like the contradictions of church dogma, maybe God doesn't either !

[psyche101]

You're not a "7" ?

I cannot be a 7 as I subscribe to science.

Toothfairy Agnostic - remember?

[psyche101]

When will it dawn on you that the church has got no franchise agreement with God ? If you don't like the contradictions of church dogma, maybe God doesn't either !

When will it dawn on you that we have a thread title, and topic to discuss?

God does not get a say, he can be pigeonholed as man deems fit. And this is proof of that. Man has been re-writing God for the last few decades.

And who disseminates "The Word Of God"? Seems like a gentle way of admitting that relgion is bunkum.

Edited April 1, 2016 by psyche101

[+and-then]

2 Thessalonians 2:3 explains what is occurring in today's culture I think. It states that there will be a "falling away" or "apostasy" prior to the antiChrist appearing. A pointed example today is the rise of "Chrislam". The religions of this time will move more and more to "inclusiveness". My opinion is that any person who thinks that a relationship with Christ is optional for a Christian is confused and is in fact not truly a Christian. I can call myself a drop dead gorgeous man but when 99% of the people disagree with me then I probably need to re-evaluate As this wave of inclusiveness expands you will see Christians who are unwilling to bend will become targets. They will be called hateful and bigoted and will be persecuted. No harm done... in fact we are to rejoice when this happens because the Lord himself suffered the same. The greatest proof of the validity of Christianity will be the fact that no other religion will be as hated or persecuted.

[back to earth]

I would say that a person who professes to believe in both Christianity and Buddhism and sees God not as God but an alien , is a Christian that doesnt believe in God ..... two times over.

[psyche101]

2 Thessalonians 2:3 explains what is occurring in today's culture I think. It states that there will be a "falling away" or "apostasy" prior to the antiChrist appearing. A pointed example today is the rise of "Chrislam". The religions of this time will move more and more to "inclusiveness". My opinion is that any person who thinks that a relationship with Christ is optional for a Christian is confused and is in fact not truly a Christian. I can call myself a drop dead gorgeous man but when 99% of the people disagree with me then I probably need to re-evaluate As this wave of inclusiveness expands you will see Christians who are unwilling to bend will become targets. They will be called hateful and bigoted and will be persecuted. No harm done... in fact we are to rejoice when this happens because the Lord himself suffered the same. The greatest proof of the validity of Christianity will be the fact that no other religion will be as hated or persecuted.

Well said mate. This seems to be the conundrum here. I like the way you put that

[Golden Duck]

As you and Habitat are speaking about Easter........

I find it terribly confusing nowadays. Adam gave us original sin, which infected us all with sin, which Jesus had to die on the cross to absolve.

Now the Church admits the story of Adam is an allegory and admits Evolution is valid.

So who committed the original sin, infecting us all, that Jesus died to absolve us all of?

So does the Church even believe in Jesus and God? Adam is an allegory that got Jesus killed, so what is the validity of the story of Jesus's death? How long till it becomes a "metaphor" as well?

if i can accept a holy trinity; whay can't i believe in a theological duality?

[back to earth]

but you can

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism

[Golden Duck]

but you can

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism

Hmmm... A religion with a vacancy for a leader?

[badeskov]

Hmmm... A religion with a vacancy for a leader?

Hands off, I saw it first!!!

Cheers,

Badeskov

[Davros of Skaro]

This is silly. A Christian that denies the Holy Dopamine Ghost is not in a relationship with the war God YAHWEH.

[Davros of Skaro]

No harm done... in fact we are to rejoice when this happens because the Lord himself suffered the same. The greatest proof of the validity of Christianity will be the fact that no other religion will be as hated or persecuted.

That's some delicious cult propaganda right there.

[Habitat]

I knew a chap called Christian once. He had the wrong name. He seemed to worship intoxicating liquor as God. Probably pickled by now.

[eight bits]

Well, Sheri, nice topic.

The article invites reflection on "Jesus' God." Even in ancient times, there was contentious uncertainty about that. The God-concept that won out among the orthodox Christians, the Trinity, is not the Jewish God. Among the concepts which the Trinity extinguished are the Gnostic ideas (basically that the "Creator" is secondary to an unseen ultimate Godhead), also not the Jewish God.

I think that "Jesus' God" is simply lost to us as a concept. "Lost" presupposes that there was a real Jesus, apart from what Paul and his contemporary rivals channeled, which is itself a non-trivial assumption. All those scholars mentioned in the article who were working on the real Christian God, and who came up with many different ideas, remind me of all the scholars trying to work out the real historical Jesus, with a similar lack of any consistent outcome.

As to "Christianity without the Nicene God," of course it's possible - it happened. There were ancient Christians who believed other theologies even after Nicaea.

The good ideas attributed to Jesus of the gospels (canonical or not) aren't uniquely Christian. However, if that's how somebody finds out about this approach, and they therefore want to call themselves "Christian," then that's OK with me. Who knows what such a person would or should think about God, and what difference does it really make?

On a point arising

Adam gave us original sin, which infected us all with sin, which Jesus had to die on the cross to absolve.

That's a Western Christian view. The equally ancient and continuously transmitted Eastern Orthodox tradition holds with the Jews that nobody can be liable for the sin of another. There can be enduring consequences of sin (the human condition generally is not so easy as before in the Garden), but not inherited guilt. Moreover, Adam and Eve themselves atoned for their sin in the usual Eastern tradition. Similarly (and logically enough) while Jesus' death-then-resurrection is important in many ways, human sacrifice for sin atonement isn't sanctioned in the East.