Explain to me 20 years for Khufu

[Qwasz]

So I'm trying hard to get the mainstream Egyptology explanation to fit in my head, because I'd rather believe that than any of the crackpot theories I've read.

But I'm still having a hard time with the 20 years bit.

Lets just do some simple math. Assuming a conservative 2,300,000 limestone blocks:

2,300,000 over 20 years:

115,000 per year:

315 per day: (working 365 days a year)

26 blocks per hour: (working 12 hours a day)

That's one block, put into place, every 2.3 minutes, 12 hours a day, 365 days a year, for 20 years.

If you know anything about long term highly logistical construction projects you'll know that even planning the operation and resource allocation would have been a guess at first. Since sometimes things would break down, people might get sick, you have to move to a new area of the quarry, the stone wasnt as good in certain parts of the quarry as you expected, you're using up your bronze tools faster than you expected, you're using up ropes faster than expected, trees for rollers, on and on. All kinds of day to day problems that come up in construction. So to maintain an AVERAGE of 2.3 minutes per block you would have to go MUCH faster much of the time. You'd need to have really good days where you were laying blocks every minute to make up for days when things were not running perfectly.

If modern construction projects, timeline and budget overruns were as common in antiquity as they are today, they must have been planning to have it done in 10 years!

Plus it's not just people to do the cutting, moving, and stacking, but you need ramp builders, rope weavers, bronze tool makers, mortar mixers, and on and on.

It just doesnt seem to add up at all.

[cladking]

So I'm trying hard to get the mainstream Egyptology explanation to fit in my head, because I'd rather believe that than any of the crackpot theories I've read.

But I'm still having a hard time with the 20 years bit.

Lets just do some simple math. Assuming a conservative 2,300,000 limestone blocks:

2,300,000 over 20 years:

115,000 per year:

315 per day: (working 365 days a year)

26 blocks per hour: (working 12 hours a day)

That's one block, put into place, every 2.3 minutes, 12 hours a day, 365 days a year, for 20 years.

If you know anything about long term highly logistical construction projects you'll know that even planning the operation and resource allocation would have been a guess at first. Since sometimes things would break down, people might get sick, you have to move to a new area of the quarry, the stone wasnt as good in certain parts of the quarry as you expected, you're using up your bronze tools faster than you expected, you're using up ropes faster than expected, trees for rollers, on and on. All kinds of day to day problems that come up in construction. So to maintain an AVERAGE of 2.3 minutes per block you would have to go MUCH faster much of the time. You'd need to have really good days where you were laying blocks every minute to make up for days when things were not running perfectly.

If modern construction projects, timeline and budget overruns were as common in antiquity as they are today, they must have been planning to have it done in 10 years!

Plus it's not just people to do the cutting, moving, and stacking, but you need ramp builders, rope weavers, bronze tool makers, mortar mixers, and on and on.

It just doesnt seem to add up at all.

You forgot the best part; 110 degrees in the blazing desert sun with

reflective surfaces all around. You could probably roast cows on the

ramps. Well, you could if there had been any but there couldn't have

been because we know there were no "Inventors of Ramps" and no "Over-

seer of Ramp Builders", and no anything at all to do with ramps. None.

And the best part of working in the desert sun is that it was the peak

growing season and they couldn't even grow a cucumber because the val-

ley was flooded.

What they had were things to do with boats, and ropes, and sycamores.

No, it doesn't add up. It doesn't add up because the wrong numbers are

being used and the right ones aren't given any weight.

There are numerous crackpot ides that make more sense than ramps in

light of the evidence.

[Paracelse]

Each civilization, each culture have different ways of thinking. It's the same with engineering. What appears silly and stupid to us may have been a way of life for Egyptian. The day engineers will replace archeologists at Giza, we might know how those 3 pyramids were built. Without going into "pyramidiocy" I'm not convinced yet they (Giza pyramids) were built for burial purposes.

[Emma_Acid]

It just doesnt seem to add up at all.

Something seeming improbable by today's standards is not the same as it "not adding up".

[Harte]

Lets just do some simple math. Assuming a conservative 2,300,000 limestone blocks:

Why do you consider this a "conservative" figure?

I've seen figures claiming half as many stones.

If you know anything about long term highly logistical construction projects you'll know that even planning the operation and resource allocation would have been a guess at first.

There were several pyramids built before the G.P.

The Red pyramid comes to mind. It's quite similar to the three main Giza pyramids.

So, no, the logistics would have already been firmly established.

It just doesnt seem to add up at all.

It adds up to the successful Civil and Construction Engineering firm of Daniel, Mann, Johnson, & Mendenhall (DMJM).

In my opinion, if DMJM says it could have been done in fifteen years, then it certainly could have been done in twenty.

Harte

[KennyB]

Don't worry about it. It'll all add up to the ones that want it to. They can always add + or - to the end that will make it all come out right. Same as they do now. KennyB

[cladking]

In my opinion, if DMJM says it could have been done in fifteen years, then it certainly could have been done in twenty.

This is just one more of the "it must have been ramp" theories

founded on a vacuum with evidence to match.

We determined, however, that some type of

ramp structure was probably used given the

remains of ramps at other sites and our

assessment of available construction methods.

No!!! It didn't have to be ramps because these people weren't ig-

norant savages with no more imagination than modern construction

outfits that have never lifted a brick higher than their head.

[cladking]

Why do you consider this a "conservative" figure?

I've seen figures claiming half as many stones.

The pyramid is what it is. You can't pencil whip it into

a more manageable size and then have it just as big. The

Egyptians built a 6 1/2 million ton pile of stone with an

average density of about 2.67 whether that works for pencil

whippers or not. It was 481' tall and this is how high the

stones had to be lifted. All the stones had to be lifted

as high as the base and then they had to be lifted to get

to their final position.

There just is no way around the facts.

[cladking]

Something seeming improbable by today's standards is not the same as it "not adding up".

I don't believe it's true that we aren't as smart as the

ancients. Sure, I'd agree we're far more superstitious now

days and tend to make up our minds with almost no evidence.

I might even agree that on average we aren't as smart as

the ancients.

But intelligence is a very complicated thing and manifests

in as mnany ways as it has aspects. While the average per-

son today might not be able to hold a candle to the ancients

the fact is that we do have far far more knowledge. There

are people who could figure out even the most complicated

ramp system that could be used to build the great pyramids

if it were possible to use ramps. Indeed, I'd wager they

could also then explain why there's no evidence whatsoever

for ramps.

Even if ramps were possible it seems likely there's only one

possible explanation for why there is no evidence that they

were used to lift stones high up the pyramids.

Edited May 25, 2010 by cladking

[zoser]

Some good points here, and I have to agree it sounds totally unfeasible. Also bear in mind who on earth was maintaining, feeding, and housing this huge workforce and their families?

I just don't believe that there could have been such a mssive surplus of food and resources to do this. The pressure on the community would have been overwhelming.

Z

[Emma_Acid]

Some good points here, and I have to agree it sounds totally unfeasible. Also bear in mind who on earth was maintaining, feeding, and housing this huge workforce and their families?

I just don't believe that there could have been such a mssive surplus of food and resources to do this. The pressure on the community would have been overwhelming.

Z

Argument from ignorance. Just because you don't get how they did it, doesn't mean they couldn't do it.

[cladking]

Argument from ignorance. Just because you don't get how they did it, doesn't mean they couldn't do it.

Just because it's there doesn't meanb you know how they built it.

[digitalartist]

Just because it's there doesn't meanb you know how they built it.

Just because the method hasn't been exactly determined doesn't mean it must be attributed to supernatural or extraterrestrial involvement.

[cladking]

Just because the method hasn't been exactly determined doesn't mean it must be attributed to supernatural or extraterrestrial involvement.

I don't disagree in the least.

But I know from experience that when someone says that the "method

hasn't been exactly determined" that they mean "they must have used

ramps".

I've done a more than adequate job of disproving virtually any sort

of ramp system whatsoever. It simply doesn't matter if this refut-

ation is widely accepted or not. It's real and it exists. It's no

longer adequate to fall back on "they must have used ramps". There

is a big question out there and it's time all the assumptions are

dropped and the question is addressed scientifically.

[The_Spartan]

This is just one more of the "it must have been ramp" theories

founded on a vacuum with evidence to match.

No!!! It didn't have to be ramps because these people weren't ig-

norant savages with no more imagination than modern construction

outfits that have never lifted a brick higher than their head.

Well...A ramp Theory is far much for reasonable than a geyser powered Pyramid construction Scheme.

[Qwasz]

Why do you consider this a "conservative" figure?

I've seen figures claiming half as many stones.

Your own reference, the work of DMJM, estimates "there could be from 2 million to 2.8 million blocks, depending on the assumptions."

And here is DMJM's actual estimate: "Based on our program management approach and our informed guesses we concluded that the total project required an average workforce of 13,200 persons and a peak workforce of 40,000 and that it required two to three years of site preparation, five years of pyramid construction, and two years of ramp removal, decoration, and other ancillary tasks."

That's right, they are claiming 10 years (3 yrs prep, 5 years stack, 2 years for "ramp removal")... 10 years.

The it gets even better. Remember my original math: 1 block every 2.3 minutes 12 hours a day 365 days a year for 20 years. Now get this from DMJM: "We determined that there were 3 workweeks of 10 days per month—8 days of work followed by 1 to 2 days off. A workday consisted of four to five hours in the morning followed by four to five hours after lunch. Deductions would be necessary for holidays and religious observances, so we used 280 working days per year as our estimate for construction time."

So lets look at what happens when you apply these much more conservative numbers to the estimate:

2,300,000 blocks

230,000 per year over 10 years

821 per day over 280 work days a year

82 blocks per hour over a 10 hour work day (DMJM estimates 8-10 hour work day)

That's one block every 44 seconds! AVERAGE! For a decade.

Sorry but DMJM is one of the reasons I'm having such a hard time believing the mainstream estimates.

In fact since none of the blocks would be going into place during the 3 years of prep, the backing block and face stones were actually estimated by these crackpots to be 7 years of work. So it's more like a block every 30 seconds approximately. A block every 30 seconds, for 10 years.

Oh, and then not to mention that at the top of every "step" they have to level the entire thing! How long does that take? They have to literally cut all the blocks completely level across the entire surface. How many days of work does that take? And what does that to do the already insane estimates?

In my opinion, if DMJM says it could have been done in fifteen years, then it certainly could have been done in twenty.

Well DMJM said 10, so I guess that makes you even more convinced they know what they are talking about. Clearly they dont. It was probably just PR for their engineering firm. "Hey let's hire the guys who did the pyramid estimates". They could even put it in their commercials: "We've planned project much bigger than yours" :cut to shot of the pyramid. They were clearly in no hurry to suggest anything controversial at all. How stupid would they look if they came back and said "Cant be done in 20 years, completely impossible, logistically impossible without heavy machinery". They would be characterized as fringe lunatics who obviously cant do logistics and no one would ever hire them again.

DMJM's work belongs on the same pile as the atomic reactor guy.

Edited May 25, 2010 by Qwasz

[lakeview rud]

Even if you cut the number of stones lifted into place in half you are looking at something like one stone every 5 minutes or so. Trouble with ramp theory is that you may be able to justify construction and use of one ramp but likely whatever method was used had to have multiple mechanisms in place to meet the time frame and multilple ramps of the size necessary would have consumed much more material that the GP itself. While water geysers are unlikely the use of some type of counterweight system using water as the counterweight would not be outside the possible. The internal structures inside could be remnants of the system. Water was available on the plateau at the time (otherwise your workers wouldn't last long)and you can lift water even by manpower (two bags on a yolk) and the number of men required fits the numbers being bandied about by archeologists. Take a look at Campbell's Tomb and see if you can come up with another use for it other than a water holding device. (No one else in AE was buried in a huge open hole in the ground so its not a tomb!!) Sorry folks ramps are not the answer.

[cladking]

Well...A ramp Theory is far much for reasonable than a geyser powered Pyramid construction Scheme.

This is quite possibly true and definitely true on its face.

But I still believe that if we were to actually go look at

this questiuon we would find they used pressurized water and

that it was carbonation that pressurized it.

This is wholly irrelevent. What's relevent is they didn't

use ramps. What's relevent is that it's past time for saying

ramps are the only possible method. We can say we don't know

and that we aren't bothering to look.

We should say that there is no apparent way that the Great Py-

ramid was built and all ideas are mere speculation.

[+DieChecker]

That's one block, put into place, every 2.3 minutes, 12 hours a day, 365 days a year, for 20 years.

From what I have read (I admit I am not an expert, though I am a professional engineer, with a BS in Mechanical Engineering.) that the number of blocks, the number of people and even the number of 20 years, is all just guesswork... assumptions.

Does anyone have a good source on where the 20 year thing came from? I've tried Googling it and found some (Somewhat shaky) sites that call it an assumption based on the size, and others that seem to indicate it is based on historical record.

And... even one block every 2 minutes is not so bad if you understand that 80% of the pyramid is below the halfway mark, so ramps used to move the blocks up would have not had to be terribly high, and in fact could have been as wide as the pyramid itself. Plus, you could use these ramps on at least 3 sides at one time. Plus, there is a outcrop of stone in the middle of the GP, so that could have cut down the work of the lowe part by as much as a quarter. So in any, say hundred meter section, you may have had one stone going in every half hour and still be able to meet the timeline.

Well, you could if there had been any but there couldn't have been because we know there were no "Inventors of Ramps" and no "Overseer of Ramp Builders", and no anything at all to do with ramps. None.

And how do we know such people did not exist? Is it because they are not included in the Pyramid Texts? Then I will remind you that the PTs were not written till much more then a hundred years after the GP was built.

There were several pyramids built before the G.P.

The Red pyramid comes to mind. It's quite similar to the three main Giza pyramids.

So, no, the logistics would have already been firmly established.

I have read an estimate for building the GP based on the records of the building of the Red Pyramid, which show that the GP could have been built in 14 years.

It adds up to the successful Civil and Construction Engineering firm of Daniel, Mann, Johnson, & Mendenhall (DMJM).

In my opinion, if DMJM says it could have been done in fifteen years, then it certainly could have been done in twenty.

Harte

I agree. There are ways to plan the construction that would allow it to be done in such a timeframe.

Oh, and then not to mention that at the top of every "step" they have to level the entire thing! How long does that take? They have to literally cut all the blocks completely level across the entire surface. How many days of work does that take? And what does that to do the already insane estimates?

Where did you see that claim? Stacking stones does not require complete levelness, and they would not need to do it after all were stacked, they would have the equivalent of an engineer there with a plumb and a boad and they would whack any imperfections right there while the next block was coming up. No lost time.

Plus, the masons worked on each block before it arrived, so if they were done wrong and the blocks were not level it would be the masons fault.

Well DMJM said 10, so I guess that makes you even more convinced they know what they are talking about. Clearly they dont.

That is right let's not trust a major company that has decades of stonework experience and people with advanced degrees, and instead trust the anonymus forum blogs feelings.

Trouble with ramp theory is that you may be able to justify construction and use of one ramp but likely whatever method was used had to have multiple mechanisms in place to meet the time frame and multilple ramps of the size necessary would have consumed much more material that the GP itself.

That is correct, but manpower and resources (Sand, clay and gravel) is not a problem. Egypt was a powerhouse at the time and had all the people, food and stone it could need for this project with no problems. So what if there werew 20,000 people in stead of 10,000? There is no hard number of people that was involved that is a known fact.

Can anyone say that NO OTHER PROJECTS were completed in this time period in Egypt? Of course there were other projects completed. Dozens of major projects. The resources were there.

While water geysers are unlikely the use of some type of counterweight system using water as the counterweight would not be outside the possible.

....

Sorry folks ramps are not the answer.

I think counterweights could have been used, but not for the first 80% of the pyramid. Ramps would have been so easy to use below the half way mark. How the top half was done is what is really up for discussion.

What are you going to do??? Use a 20 meter ramp that is 100 meters long and 200 meters wide, or use four counterweights that need two kilometers of ropes each, minimum, to lift stones to 20 meters? Do you know how hard it would be to maintain that rope system?

When you get above 50% then sure, you need a lot less ropes, a lot less stone to move and a lot more room for counterweights to be effective on the back of the pyramid.

I however think levering would have worked better even then counterweights. You can use the entire face of the pyramid to move stones up. The only problem being finding some way to keep stones from leaning out and falling on everyone below them. This I have proposed could be done by rope that would either be attacked to stakes, or held by men on the next level, such that even a few hundred pounds of horizontal force would prevent almost all falling stones.

[Harte]

And they placed only one stone at a time for what reason?

What if they placed fifty stones at a time?

Do you assume that only one crew was working? DMJM does not. Why? because they are a construction engineering firm, not a bunch of speculators banging on computers at home.

Harte

Edited May 25, 2010 by Harte

[questionmark]

I love these Achilles and the turtle paired with the postman paradigms....

[cladking]

Your own reference, the work of DMJM, estimates "there could be from 2 million to 2.8 million blocks, depending on the assumptions."

And here is DMJM's actual estimate: "Based on our program management approach and our informed guesses we concluded that the total project required an average workforce of 13,200 persons and a peak workforce of 40,000 and that it required two to three years of site preparation, five years of pyramid construction, and two years of ramp removal, decoration, and other ancillary tasks."

That's right, they are claiming 10 years (3 yrs prep, 5 years stack, 2 years for "ramp removal")... 10 years.

The it gets even better. Remember my original math: 1 block every 2.3 minutes 12 hours a day 365 days a year for 20 years. Now get this from DMJM: "We determined that there were 3 workweeks of 10 days per month—8 days of work followed by 1 to 2 days off. A workday consisted of four to five hours in the morning followed by four to five hours after lunch. Deductions would be necessary for holidays and religious observances, so we used 280 working days per year as our estimate for construction time."

So lets look at what happens when you apply these much more conservative numbers to the estimate:

2,300,000 blocks

230,000 per year over 10 years

821 per day over 280 work days a year

82 blocks per hour over a 10 hour work day (DMJM estimates 8-10 hour work day)

That's one block every 44 seconds! AVERAGE! For a decade.

Sorry but DMJM is one of the reasons I'm having such a hard time believing the mainstream estimates.

In fact since none of the blocks would be going into place during the 3 years of prep, the backing block and face stones were actually estimated by these crackpots to be 7 years of work. So it's more like a block every 30 seconds approximately. A block every 30 seconds, for 10 years.

Oh, and then not to mention that at the top of every "step" they have to level the entire thing! How long does that take? They have to literally cut all the blocks completely level across the entire surface. How many days of work does that take? And what does that to do the already insane estimates?

Well DMJM said 10, so I guess that makes you even more convinced they know what they are talking about. Clearly they dont. It was probably just PR for their engineering firm. "Hey let's hire the guys who did the pyramid estimates". They could even put it in their commercials: "We've planned project much bigger than yours" :cut to shot of the pyramid. They were clearly in no hurry to suggest anything controversial at all. How stupid would they look if they came back and said "Cant be done in 20 years, completely impossible, logistically impossible without heavy machinery". They would be characterized as fringe lunatics who obviously cant do logistics and no one would ever hire them again.

DMJM's work belongs on the same pile as the atomic reactor guy.

You're being too generous.

How is a man supposed to do the most laborious job possible fo

ten hours per day? 110 degrees in the shade and these guys are

in the blazing sun with refective surfaces all around. People

don't work eight consequtive ten hour days like this. Most peo-

ple would be lucky to survive the first day.

There's still a very fundamental problem too; when men are work-

ing together to drag stones you can't tell who's pulling and who's

just leabning against the ropes. Very soon everyone will figure

this out and manpower requirements will soar.

On what basis do they believe 14,000 men can do this anyway. How

much extra work is there to hide the fact that they used ramps?

This might be the real nail in the coffin. It would be very hard

work to hide all this evidence for ramps and for what? Are we rea-

lly supposed to believe this was the big secret everyone had!!!

Sure.

There's some doubt in my mind that 14,000 men would even be suffi-

cient to take care of the workforce that would be needed to build

and use ramps.

[ShadowSot]

I think the 20 years estimate originates with Herodotus.

[Harte]

Where did you see that claim? Stacking stones does not require complete levelness, and they would not need to do it after all were stacked, they would have the equivalent of an engineer there with a plumb and a boad and they would whack any imperfections right there while the next block was coming up. No lost time.

You're right in everything you said, but this part deserves highlighting.

See, to this day we can tell where they levelled and where they did not.

IIRC, the GP was levelled only at about every 15th layer of stone.

When someone posts that "they had to level every stone" (or whatever,) that's a good example of the way we make unconscious assumptions about things that we know very little about.

I can see why someone would think that, but the facts tell a completely different story.

That's why we all need to examine the actual facts that we have in hand - which is what DMJM did.

Harte

[cladking]

Even if you cut the number of stones lifted into place in half you are looking at something like one stone every 5 minutes or so. Trouble with ramp theory is that you may be able to justify construction and use of one ramp but likely whatever method was used had to have multiple mechanisms in place to meet the time frame and multilple ramps of the size necessary would have consumed much more material that the GP itself. While water geysers are unlikely the use of some type of counterweight system using water as the counterweight would not be outside the possible. The internal structures inside could be remnants of the system. Water was available on the plateau at the time (otherwise your workers wouldn't last long)and you can lift water even by manpower (two bags on a yolk) and the number of men required fits the numbers being bandied about by archeologists. Take a look at Campbell's Tomb and see if you can come up with another use for it other than a water holding device. (No one else in AE was buried in a huge open hole in the ground so its not a tomb!!) Sorry folks ramps are not the answer.

Counterweights are well evidenced.

Water at the pyramid base is well evidenced.

You're right that there are a million ways to skin a cat.

I suspect Cambpell's Tomb was actually the world's first public flush toilet.

All hail Cambpell.