44 replies to this topic

[F3SS]

747400, on 11 December 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

Well, exactly. Rather than just saying
, surely we need to be looking beyond what's so far as we can see (which, particularly for big Business, is not really very far) and planning for the time when there just isn't enough fossil fuel (enough oil, at any rate) to be the absolute standard necessity any longer? That's the whole point of what I'm saying; rather than making a big panic about it, accept that it's going to happen some time and plan for it. For now, fossil fuels are the absolute standard necessity for todays needs in all areas of production and commerce, but just to say that we shouldn't try to develop ways to reduce the dependence on it and emissions from it seems incredibly head in the sand.

I didn't say we shouldn't be looking. I'm just saying there is no need to cram todays green tech down our throats. There are green companies out there and surely some nutjob in a basement working on making something spectacular. It'll come in time. Wrecking the energy industry today will do nothing to speed up the process since every tool, machine and vehicle depends on fossil fuel in some way or another and to make the tools of research and innovation crazy expensive will not get green here any faster. We, today, are not the only answer to the future though. There will be more generations with better tech that'll usher in an era of energy that'll make oil look like caveman spears when tech is compared. Why the rush? You know in your heart the planet will heal and fossil fuels are still abundant. We need to tap more of them and keep oil prices low and our economy would boom. For instance: A sheet of 7/16" plywood, something I need a lot of all the time, at home depot cost around $4 pre-Katrina. Then gas prices went up and so did the cost of that plywood to like $7-$8 a sheet. From that point on my prices went up and so did my customers bills. When gas prices declined at the end of the Bush era the plywood went back down to $4-$5 a sheet. Since then, gas has climbed and now that same sheet of plywood cost $10.97+ tax last time I bought it. The same thing has happened with every other product on every other shelf. So how is impeding economic process going to help anybody when money is the solution to reinvesting into the future and high energy costs just take money from the future? Please don't tell me that the energy companies should eat the cost. That sounds nice but you know it isn't going to happen.

Br Cornelius, on 11 December 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

Just to correct the misrepresentation - there is no solar system warming. Any premise that is based upon the concept that the solar system is warming is false.
So what if we are warming anyways. We will adapt. People will adapt. Northern territories may be the future of agriculture and southern territories will still be producing food. Warm weather is good for everything, especially world wide food production. It isn't likely that the world will become a desert wasteland short of nuclear fallout.

Only the earth is experiencing unseasonal warming.

Br Cornelius

[Br Cornelius]

Are you expecting the public to eat the costs of dealing with the consequences of climate change. Economists have calculated the costs of doing nothing about climate change will far outstrip those of investing in clean technologies.

The polluter pays principle is there to make certain that those who cause the pollution (the oil/gas companies) pay for the consequences and not the general public. This allows them the flexibility to choose the greener options which become cost competitive when all costs are accounted for and not just the costs of extraction.

Br Cornelius

[F3SS]

Br Cornelius, on 11 December 2012 - 10:30 PM, said:

Are you expecting the public to eat the costs of dealing with the consequences of climate change. Economists have calculated the costs of doing nothing about climate change will far outstrip those of investing in clean technologies.

The polluter pays principle is there to make certain that those who cause the pollution (the oil/gas companies) pay for the consequences and not the general public. This allows them the flexibility to choose the greener options which become cost competitive when all costs are accounted for and not just the costs of extraction.

Br Cornelius

Are you expecting them not to?! How come you don't call it global warming anymore? Now that these genius' who insisted the earth was going to burn (with all the scientific evidence in the world to back them up, oh wait it was all made up) realized that's not going to happen they now call it climate change to fit any scenario the Earth can throw at them and blame it on oil companies. Seriously, you're blaming completely natural events on man based on global warming which apparently doesn't exist anymore. The Sahara was once an ocean and Antarctica was once a lush continent. Throughout time, on Earth, sh1t happens. That isn't under anyone's ability to fix or change.

[preacherman76]

747400, on 11 December 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

what? I thought the economy was already finished? So it's ok to effectively say "uncle Sam does not want to have to pay any more, so stuff everyone else, just as long as we can keep pouring cheap Oil into our cars and using these cars to drive 100 yards round the corner to the fast Food restaurant"? Again, I feel that a head is in the sand here.

Well that is a pretty narrow minded view of the situation. Look Im all for green energy. Im all for cleaner energy sources. Im not for commiting economic suicide over it. Stuff everyone else? If they tax carbon, everyone is going to get "stuffed". Everyone. There has to be a better way to try and implement better sources of energy, without sending everyone to the poor house. I know I cant afford to pay more for gas, heat, groceries, clothes, ect ect ect ect. I just cant. Especialy considering my health insurance was raised 3 times since 0bama care was passed. Maybe folks like yourself can afford to pay more for every single thing you have to buy. Every single thing you have to provide for your family, But this is going to seriously screw over millions of folks like myself. And I dont eat fast food.

[Br Cornelius]

-Mr_Fess-, on 12 December 2012 - 12:29 AM, said:

Are you expecting them not to?! How come you don't call it global warming anymore? Now that these genius' who insisted the earth was going to burn (with all the scientific evidence in the world to back them up, oh wait it was all made up) realized that's not going to happen they now call it climate change to fit any scenario the Earth can throw at them and blame it on oil companies. Seriously, you're blaming completely natural events on man based on global warming which apparently doesn't exist anymore. The Sahara was once an ocean and Antarctica was once a lush continent. Throughout time, on Earth, sh1t happens. That isn't under anyone's ability to fix or change.

here's a simple question - "what natural force is causing the planet to warm ?"
I need particulars to take your position seriously.
What is causing the energy imbalance at the top of the atmosphere if not Greenhouse Gases ?

No vague hand waving please - scientific precision with calculations of what portion your theory accounts for.

Good luck .

Br Cornelius

[Br Cornelius]

preacherman76, on 12 December 2012 - 01:12 AM, said:

Well that is a pretty narrow minded view of the situation. Look Im all for green energy. Im all for cleaner energy sources. Im not for commiting economic suicide over it. Stuff everyone else? If they tax carbon, everyone is going to get "stuffed". Everyone. There has to be a better way to try and implement better sources of energy, without sending everyone to the poor house. I know I cant afford to pay more for gas, heat, groceries, clothes, ect ect ect ect. I just cant. Especialy considering my health insurance was raised 3 times since 0bama care was passed. Maybe folks like yourself can afford to pay more for every single thing you have to buy. Every single thing you have to provide for your family, But this is going to seriously screw over millions of folks like myself. And I dont eat fast food.

Gas/oil is in dwindling supply. It has already gone up by three fold in the last 5years. You may not want to pay more for your energy - but if you stick with fossil fuels expect to spend an increasing proportion of your direct salary on fuel.

You will certainly get stuffed if the economy fails to divest of oil/gas as its primary source of energy. I give it about 10years at most before you will be making some very hard choices about what you spend your cash on - and you maybe learning to walk a lot more and getting used to the hot/cold.

Only forward planning can prevent these outcomes.

Br Cornelius

[OverSword]

mars is warming
http://news.heartlan...ientists-report

[Br Cornelius]

OverSword, on 12 December 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

mars is warming
http://news.heartlan...ientists-report

Planets have seasons just like earth.
It would take a net warming of all the planets beyond seasonal variation to demonstrate a solar system warming.
There is no such trend across the solar system.
Mars  has a rather dramatic feedback mechanism induced by seasonal dust storms causing the poles to warm rapidly.

Its a rather weak argument and it surprises me that even the Heartland Institute would resort to it, its strictly for the loonies.


Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 12 December 2012 - 09:28 PM.

[OverSword]

Br Cornelius, on 12 December 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

Planets have seasons just like earth.
It would take a net warming of all the planets beyond seasonal variation to demonstrate a solar system warming.
There is no such trend across the solar system.
Mars  has a rather dramatic feedback mechanism induced by seasonal dust storms causing the poles to warm rapidly.

Its a rather weak argument and it surprises me that even the Heartland Institute would resort to it, its strictly for the loonies.


Br Cornelius

So studies done by NASA are weak if they don't agree with you.  OK.

[F3SS]

Br Cornelius, on 12 December 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

here's a simple question - "what natural force is causing the planet to warm ?"
I need particulars to take your position seriously.
What is causing the energy imbalance at the top of the atmosphere if not Greenhouse Gases ?

No vague hand waving please - scientific precision with calculations of what portion your theory accounts for.

Good luck .

Br Cornelius

I'm no climatologist so you aren't getting any of that from me but I would guess the same thing that made the planet so warm during the dinosaur age and the same thing that made it so cold during the ice age. It's called nature and there is nothing you can do to stop it. All I know is that in the 70's we were supposed to enter an ice age within 20 years and that never happened and then we were supposed to get unbearably warm from global warming and that never happened and now to save face for any possible scenario it's simply called climate change. It's a farce set forth by enviro-whackos and politicians to tax and tax and tax and scare and scare and acre to get the sheep to agree with the taxes. It always was and always will be about getting more money into government hands, here and overseas.

Br Cornelius, on 12 December 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

Gas/oil is in dwindling supply. It has already gone up by three fold in the last 5years. You may not want to pay more for your energy - but if you stick with fossil fuels expect to spend an increasing proportion of your direct salary on fuel.

You will certainly get stuffed if the economy fails to divest of oil/gas as its primary source of energy. I give it about 10years at most before you will be making some very hard choices about what you spend your cash on - and you maybe learning to walk a lot more and getting used to the hot/cold.

Only forward planning can prevent these outcomes.

Br Cornelius

you think possibly oil prices would go down, at least in America, if we could drill for more. It's said that we've got exponentially more oil on our land than all of the Middle East. Wether that's accurate or not who knows but we sure to have a lot of untapped resources and when the price of oil drops so does every conceivable thing that requires oil to produce or move from point a-b. why not do us all a favor and save us buttloads of money and create buttloads of jobs? Or is some stupid mouse, plant or bird that lives near these oil rich areas more important?

[F3SS]

OverSword, on 12 December 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

So studies done by NASA are weak if they don't agree with you.  OK.

Exactly, we don't even know how to figure our own planet out with 100% accuracy and its even harder to figure out what to believe and from who. Now we are supposed to know what's happening on mars, undoubtedly? I'm sure NASA is on to something though and I'll believe them over BrCornelius. He even eluded to holding that certain institute above in high regards but since they smashed his argument their publishing is now for loonies...

[OverSword]

10-4 good buddy.

Edited by OverSword, 12 December 2012 - 11:17 PM.

[Cradle of Fish]

A carbon tax came into effect in either june or july in Australia, and all the economic doomsaying didn't come to pass. Tax increases are annoying but they aren't crippling to the economy.

The fact is we have to get off of fossil fuels. A carbon tax can help to achieve that goal, but only if the revenue gained is properly focussed. Ideally we should be building more nuclear reactors, and solar panels on every building we can.

[F3SS]

Cradle of Fish, on 12 December 2012 - 11:25 PM, said:

A carbon tax came into effect in either june or july in Australia, and all the economic doomsaying didn't come to pass. Tax increases are annoying but they aren't crippling to the economy.

The fact is we have to get off of fossil fuels. A carbon tax can help to achieve that goal, but only if the revenue gained is properly focussed. Ideally we should be building more nuclear reactors, and solar panels on every building we can.

I don't know about Australia but the reason we hate new taxes so much is because the revenue is never properly focused.

[ninjadude]

Br Cornelius, on 12 December 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

Gas/oil is in dwindling supply.

be sure you put "fossil" in front of that. I personally think that we will be using oil long into the future but not by drilling it out of the ground.

(Sorry mr fess but there is little oil left in the US - you've been misled. Again by the conservamedia. And further, Climate Change more accurately describes the climate being forced by humans more quickly and greater than the natural cycles that we are well aware of).