War Plan Red

[redhen]

Many people use Operation Northwoods as proof that Western governments are very interested in killing their own people. I've countered that private think tanks and government defense analysts are paid to sit around all day and dream up all kinds of threatening scenarios.

As further proof, I've posted links to War Plan Red, the 1930 U.S. plan to invade Canada. According to the plan this would have entailed strategic bombing of cities (yeah I know, many Canadians would be happy to see Toronto leveled) and the use of chemical weapons. Here's a documentary I stumbled on that discusses this plan and the context in detail.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txyUtjVfi6w[/media]

What I found even more startling was Defense Scheme No.1 a planned Canadian invasion of America. Now that's ballsy, lol.

Needless to say, like Operation Northwoods, both these plans sat on the shelves for years collecting dust.

Edited February 22, 2013 by redhen

[Space Commander Travis]

Straetgic bombing? Sounds a bit ambitious. What bombers did the US Army Air Corps have in 1930? WWI vintage biplanes, I think were the most they had. Although to be fair, I don't know if Canada had any planes at all to speak of then. I don't think they had any tanks, which was probably fortunate, since neither did the U.S. have any worthy of the name.

[Rafterman]

Many people use Operation Northwoods as proof that Western governments are very interested in killing their own people. I've countered that private think tanks and government defense analysts are paid to sit around all day and dream up all kinds of threatening scenarios.

As further proof, I've posted links to War Plan Red, the 1930 U.S. plan to invade Canada. According to the plan this would have entailed strategic bombing of cities (yeah I know, many Canadians would be happy to see Toronto leveled) and the use of chemical weapons. Here's a documentary I stumbled on that discusses this plan and the context in detail.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txyUtjVfi6w[/media]

What I found even more startling was Defense Scheme No.1 a planned Canadian invasion of America. Now that's ballsy, lol.

Needless to say, like Operation Northwoods, both these plans sat on the shelves for years collecting dust.

You guys have to understand that this is exactly what think tanks and certain outfits in the Pentagon are paid to do - THINK. It's all a academic exercise.

Remember all of the hype a year or so ago about FEMA and the zombie apocalypse? Does anyone in their right mind think that the US Government thinks there is going to be a zombie apocalypse? I sure hope not. But guess what, preparing for a ZA is pretty similar to preparing for something like Hurricane Sandy.

[omerta]

This is what we've been training for.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_Scheme_No._1

[Taun]

I was assigned to a Combat Simulation Center back in the mid 70's and while our Corps mission was firmly focused on reinforcing and supporting West Germany from Soviet Attack, we would frequently war game (plan) various other areas including wars with fictitous countries... I remember one where we cut and pasted a series of maps of North Korea, West Germany, North Africa (can't remember the exact country), Texas and Iceland, just to get varied terrain... Lord it was an ugly map!

Military's of all countries do this all the time... For planning practice if nothing else...

[Taun]

This is what we've been training for.

http://en.wikipedia....ce_Scheme_No._1

Interesting read... The interesting thing with that plan was that they targetted Fargo, North Dakota and Northern Maine... It would take us a few months to notice they were missing, so they would have plenty of time to reinforce!...

[Likely Guy]

I found it interesting that, as a Canadian, I'd heard of 'War Plan Red' but not 'Defense Scheme #1'.

[redhen]

Straetgic bombing? Sounds a bit ambitious. What bombers did the US Army Air Corps have in 1930? WWI vintage biplanes, I think were the most they had. Although to be fair, I don't know if Canada had any planes at all to speak of then. I don't think they had any tanks, which was probably fortunate, since neither did the U.S. have any worthy of the name.

I probably used the wrong term. I believe the documentary mentions bombing of industrial centers. Also mentioned are the three airfields built at this time near Fort Drum. One of the airfields was camouflaged, which clearly shows hostile intent. Damm Yankees, lol

[Little Fish]

Many people use Operation Northwoods as proof that Western governments are very interested in killing their own people. I've countered that private think tanks and government defense analysts are paid to sit around all day and dream up all kinds of threatening scenarios.

operation northwoods was not "an academic exercise". it was a proposal by the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Lyman Lemnitzer and rejected by jfk.

operation gladio was also a real nato operation that killed citizens that nato was charged to protect.

I'm sure you know that general Lemnitzer was sacked by jfk for proposing northwoods, but did you know he went on from there to head nato and oversee operation gladio?

"academic exercise" - are you for real?

[Ealdwita]

War Plan Red's ultimate goal was to destroy Britain's ability and bring the British Empire to its knees. Canada was only the start. Eventually, it was planned to destroy all British troops in Canada and the North Atlantic.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2039453/How-America-planned-destroy-BRITAIN-1930-bombing-raids-chemical-weapons.html

[AsteroidX]

Think Tanks are dangerous and they deserve to be done in Glass Houses.

[Babe Ruth]

Northwoods did not prove that governments are willing to kill their own, but of course that may be implied.

What is proved beyond any doubt at all is that government are very willing indeed to DECEIVE their own. Nothing more.

It showed that they have contingency plans in place to lie to the people, and used staged events to accomplish that goal.

[Rafterman]

operation northwoods was not "an academic exercise". it was a proposal by the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Lyman Lemnitzer and rejected by jfk.

operation gladio was also a real nato operation that killed citizens that nato was charged to protect.

I'm sure you know that general Lemnitzer was sacked by jfk for proposing northwoods, but did you know he went on from there to head nato and oversee operation gladio?

"academic exercise" - are you for real?

But you also have to admit that the reality of Northwoods vs its place in Conspira-lore are two very separate and different things. Northwoods, as proposed, was a psyops program with no violence targeted to American Citizens. Targeting Cuban dissidents and refugees was one proposal and we can certainly argue the morality of that, but the myth that Northwoods was any type of attack on American Citizens is, just that, a myth that frankly grew legs as some wild justification for 9/11 being a false flag operation. "See, they've done it before!"

And the important part of Northwoods that always gets glossed over is that it was REJECTED. Just as any civilian leader would reject such a proposal. That's exactly why the military reports to a civilian leader.

And, frankly, after doing some research on Operation Gladio, I'm of the opinion that conspiracy types are doing the same thing they did to Northwoods - taking a actual historical event and waving a bunch of unproven conspiratorial nonsense around it. Just do a simple Google search on Gladio. You'll find the wiki entry and then page after page of the usual conspiracy sites, truther, youtube videos, etc. pushing the nonsense. And you don't have to look to far to find alleged links between Masons, the Priory of Sion, Bilderberg, the Illuminati, etc. It's all the same silly unproven silly crap - just rinse and repeat.

Funny, though, they almost all have a book or video to sell you.

[AsteroidX]

I assume these plans have been redone several times to fit the modern armies of both countries. One thing about our military they like to have an idea of what there getting into *cough cough* if it doesnt include ten years of industrial military complex then it is not accepted and thrown in the trash.

I would expect Canada has similar contingency plans and some of these can be based on occupation by a foreign enemy as we are close allies.

[Babe Ruth]

operation northwoods was not "an academic exercise". it was a proposal by the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Lyman Lemnitzer and rejected by jfk.

operation gladio was also a real nato operation that killed citizens that nato was charged to protect.

I'm sure you know that general Lemnitzer was sacked by jfk for proposing northwoods, but did you know he went on from there to head nato and oversee operation gladio?

"academic exercise" - are you for real?

Isn't it interesting that while Lemnitzer was sacked by JFK and went on to command NATO and such, it was JFK who was assassinated for not being a 'team player' and for having angered at least one of the Dulles brothers?

Who got the proverbial last laugh?

[Space Commander Travis]

But you also have to admit that the reality of Northwoods vs its place in Conspira-lore are two very separate and different things. Northwoods, as proposed, was a psyops program with no violence targeted to American Citizens. Targeting Cuban dissidents and refugees was one proposal and we can certainly argue the morality of that, but the myth that Northwoods was any type of attack on American Citizens is, just that, a myth that frankly grew legs as some wild justification for 9/11 being a false flag operation. "See, they've done it before!"

Yes, exactly. The whole point of operation Northwoods was that it wasn't for real. So it isn't a persuasive precedent for 9.11, which was many orders of magnitude different.

[Ashotep]

If the government is going to pay a think tank to think they had better get to thinking and come up with all kinds of scenarios no matter how ridiculous or lose their job.

[Little Fish]

But you also have to admit that the reality of Northwoods vs its place in Conspira-lore are two very separate and different things. Northwoods, as proposed, was a psyops program with no violence targeted to American Citizens.

in your opinion.

"we could blow up a US ship in Guantanamo bay and blame it on Cuba"

"we could develop a communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington"

"a few plastic bombs"

"lobbing mortars into the base"

sure, all that could have been done with absolutely guaranteed no harm to anyone.

[Q24]

Many people use Operation Northwoods as proof that Western governments are very interested in killing their own people. I've countered that private think tanks and government defense analysts are paid to sit around all day and dream up all kinds of threatening scenarios.

For me, in my early days of 9/11 research, the Northwoods document was the straw that broke the camel’s back. I had possession of sufficient motive and indication that a false flag appeared to have taken place, but something held me back (a mental block which seems entirely foolish to me now): “No U.S. government would deceive the public, commit thousands to death and send America to unnecessary war on such a false pretext... they are the ‘good guys’ after all... they just wouldn’t.” It was the Northwoods document in particular which broke me free of that delusion, and thus takes its place in my avatar and signature block. That is the value of the Northwoods document – it proves there are people in the system who would do just that, which I once had difficulty accepting. Since which, there has been no looking back, and extended research has only proven the 9/11 false flag beyond any doubt in my mind.

Needless to say, like Operation Northwoods, both these plans sat on the shelves for years collecting dust.

Northwoods was shelved only due to the intervention of JFK, the final hurdle.

Needless to say, he was not president on 9/11.

Bush was.

JFK/Bush... big difference, you understand?

I'm sure you know that general Lemnitzer was sacked by jfk for proposing northwoods, but did you know he went on from there to head nato and oversee operation gladio?

Can I just point out that, despite some media using the term, “sacked” is completely the wrong word. Before Northwoods, Lemnitzer was a four-star General, and after Northwoods, Lemnitzer was a four-star General. It was simply a post rotation from ‘Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff’ to ‘Supreme Allied Commander of NATO’, a position formerly held by the renowned Dwight Eisenhower – not a bad way to get ‘sacked’ huh? Sure, word has it, this was a decision by JFK to put some distance between himself and Lemnitzer whom he did not see eye-to-eye with, but there was no official reprimand or demotion. Which goes to show the type of plotting that is acceptable within the U.S. system.

Northwoods did not prove that governments are willing to kill their own, but of course that may be implied.

I’d point out the same as Little Fish – a number of the actions called for posed high-risk to U.S. civilians. There was also a plan to publish fake U.S. casualty lists in newspapers (the fakery not to save lives, but for simplicity of the operation) – so to all intent and purpose the public would believe that civilians had been killed (which in a way is even worse – grief and deception to contend with). And more than this, what some people do not consider, is that the intended result of the operation was to start a war in which many thousands would potentially die. To argue that the Northwood document authors were not prepared to commit their own to death is a nonsense.

[Space Commander Travis]

For me, in my early days of 9/11 research, the Northwoods document was the straw that broke the camel’s back. I had possession of sufficient motive and indication that a false flag appeared to have taken place, but something held me back (a mental block which seems entirely foolish to me now): “No U.S. government would deceive the public, commit thousands to death and send America to unnecessary war on such a false pretext... they are the ‘good guys’ after all... they just wouldn’t.” It was the Northwoods document in particular which broke me free of that delusion, and thus takes its place in my avatar and signature block. That is the value of the Northwoods document – it proves there are people in the system who would do just that, which I once had difficulty accepting.

except it wasn't because they weren't going to, because it would all be faked. You do see that there's a difference there, don't you?

[Little Fish]

except it wasn't because they weren't going to, because it would all be faked. You do see that there's a difference there, don't you?

what makes you believe that?

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=243456&st=15#entry4674586

[Space Commander Travis]

what makes you believe that?

http://www.unexplain...15#entry4674586

Because that was the plan, to fake attacks by "Cubans" and so arouse fear and Suspicion against them. The key work being "fake", since that'd be so much mroe cost-effective than actually doing it, even if the CIA and the Military really did have no ethics at all about putting their own people at risk.

[Babe Ruth]

Q

Thanks very much for that fine detail on faked US casualty lists. To be honest, I have read only bits and pieces of the Northwoods documents, and was not aware of that detail.

If that tactic--false casualty lists--was proposed way back then, it seems logical that the same tactic could be planned and executed regarding the events of 11 September or even Newtown. IMO that is certainly the case with the "passengers" onboard the "hijacked airliners", and as time goes on 2 months later, it is appearing to be quite possible at Newtown.

[Little Fish]

Because that was the plan, to fake attacks by "Cubans" and so arouse fear and Suspicion against them. The key work being "fake", since that'd be so much mroe cost-effective than actually doing it, even if the CIA and the Military really did have no ethics at all about putting their own people at risk.

are you saying that

"we could blow up a US ship in Guantanamo bay and blame it on Cuba"

actually means "we could pretend to blow up a US ship"

and

"we could develop a communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington"

actually means that "we could develop a pretend terror campaign in US cities"

and "a few plastic bombs"

actually means "we could pretend to plant bombs"

and

"lobbing mortars into the base"

actually means "we could pretend to lob mortars into the base"

?

and what about the hundreds of Gladio murders sanctioned by nato and the western establishment, were they pretend?

[Space Commander Travis]

Q

Thanks very much for that fine detail on faked US casualty lists. To be honest, I have read only bits and pieces of the Northwoods documents, and was not aware of that detail.

If that tactic--false casualty lists--was proposed way back then, it seems logical that the same tactic could be planned and executed regarding the events of 11 September or even Newtown. IMO that is certainly the case with the "passengers" onboard the "hijacked airliners", and as time goes on 2 months later, it is appearing to be quite possible at Newtown.

What is this? I haven't been following those particular Conspiracies, but now people are trying to suggest that not all of the kids were actually shot? If so, this is definitely a contender for worst taste conspiracy theory of all time. Even more so than all the 9.11 ones, since those at least do see themselves as trying to right a wrong, wheras the only possible grounds for concocting Conspiracy theories concerning this would be paranoia about "taking away America's Guns ".