Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * * * 3 votes

Atlantis


  • Please log in to reply
2242 replies to this topic

#2056    docyabut2

docyabut2

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,523 posts
  • Joined:12 Aug 2011

Posted 11 February 2013 - 03:15 PM

Question , if there ever was a big land mass of the Azores and the Canary islands together, connected to the continets of Europe and Africa,  would`nt there be hommid primate bones or even elephants bones found there in a migation? I believe none have ever been found on these islands, or am I wrong?


#2057    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,127 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 11 February 2013 - 03:35 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 11 February 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

Question , if there ever was a big land mass of the Azores and the Canary islands together, connected to the continets of Europe and Africa,  would`nt there be hommid primate bones or even elephants bones found there in a migation? I believe none have ever been found on these islands, or am I wrong?

Theoretically speaking, those islands would have been the former mountain tops of the continent. Elephants and apes and so on would be living on the plains, so any elephant and human or primate bones would be covered in sediment and a mile or more down in the deep sea.

And if a giant tsunami was indeed the result of the sinking of this island-continent, then anything on it, including soil, would be washed into the sea. Just like Plato described for Greece/Athens.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 11 February 2013 - 03:37 PM.


#2058    docyabut2

docyabut2

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,523 posts
  • Joined:12 Aug 2011

Posted 11 February 2013 - 04:20 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 11 February 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

Theoretically speaking, those islands would have been the former mountain tops of the continent. Elephants and apes and so on would be living on the plains, so any elephant and human or primate bones would be covered in sediment and a mile or more down in the deep sea.

And if a giant tsunami was indeed the result of the sinking of this island-continent, then anything on it, including soil, would be washed into the sea. Just like Plato described for Greece/Athens.

.

Highly unlikey :) another excuse for any evidence, just wash it away:):):)


#2059    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,127 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 11 February 2013 - 04:49 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 11 February 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

Highly unlikey :) another excuse for any evidence, just wash it away:) :) :)

Highly unlikely? But it's ok when Plato applies the scenario to Athens/Greece?

Just remember the tsunami(s) that hit the countries at the coasts of the Indian Ocean and Japan, and then multiply the height and force of the waves with a factor 10. Add to that the duration of that ancient tsunami, and not much will be left of the soil in the countries it must have hit.

The tsunamis that hit Japan in 2011 and Sumatra in 2004 lasted for hours, the tsunami that was caused by the Storegga Slide in 6150 BCE lasted for several days and flushed Doggerland (North Sea) down the drain (ie: the Channel)!! A submarine area of sediment the size of Iceland and a mile thick, west of Norway, started moving; just imagine the gigantic displacement of mass....

IF the Atlantis event indeed happened, then it must have had a much larger impact than the Storegga Saide had 8125 years ago in the North Sea.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 11 February 2013 - 04:50 PM.


#2060    Quaentum

Quaentum

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,794 posts
  • Joined:03 Aug 2012
  • Gender:Not Selected

  • The number of fringe believers is inversely proportional to what is left to discover in our world.

Posted 11 February 2013 - 05:49 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 11 February 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

IF the Atlantis event indeed happened, then it must have had a much larger impact than the Storegga Saide had 8125 years ago in the North Sea..

Unless Doggerland was the basis for the Atlantis story.

AA LOGIC
They didn't use thousands of workers - oops forgot about the work camps
There's no evidence for ramps - You found one?...Bummer
Well we know they didn't use ancient tools to cut and shape the stones - Chisel marks?  Craps
I still say aliens built them!

#2061    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,127 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 11 February 2013 - 06:21 PM

View PostQuaentum, on 11 February 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

Unless Doggerland was the basis for the Atlantis story.

Not very likely if you take the geography of Doggerland and it's location into account. But if you read the Doggerland thread here in this forum, you'll see I have tried to use a vise and squeeze the origin of the Hades/Hell/Underworld story out of the area, lol.

Stories and legends could have traveled from the North Sea area to the Black Sea area by just following the rivers Rhine or Elbe and then to the Danube. But I have always had serious doubts about some legend having survived for many thousands of years, although I won't say it is a 100% impossible.


#2062    cormac mac airt

cormac mac airt

    Non-Corporeal Being

  • Member
  • 7,930 posts
  • Joined:18 Jun 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tennessee, USA

Posted 11 February 2013 - 06:26 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 11 February 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

Does the age and thickness of the crust in the Azores area contradict the process as described by Rod Martin?

It could still be as thick and old, even when it sunk deeper to eventually end up where it is now?

There would still be evidence that it sank. And as Plato claims "in a day and a night". And we're not talking about some little island like Bermuda.

Crustal Thickness and alleged size of Atlantis.jpg

The red cross-hair in the picture is the approximate size of Atlantis as described by Plato and remember the majority of its size was a plain. All of which was, again according to Plato, submerged. And with most of the crustal area (white) at a depth of 6000+ feet below sea level it couldn't have created shoals of mud that would have blocked the entrance to the Straits of Gibraltar, which is over 1000 miles away.

It should also show a significant variance in crustal age/thickness between the Azores Plateau area, on the one hand, and the area to the south as well as the one to the west of the MAR. But from what is published there isn't such a variance.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#2063    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,127 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 11 February 2013 - 06:46 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 11 February 2013 - 06:26 PM, said:

There would still be evidence that it sank. And as Plato claims "in a day and a night". And we're not talking about some little island like Bermuda.

Attachment Crustal Thickness and alleged size of Atlantis.jpg

The red cross-hair in the picture is the approximate size of Atlantis as described by Plato and remember the majority of its size was a plain. All of which was, again according to Plato, submerged. And with most of the crustal area (white) at a depth of 6000+ feet below sea level it couldn't have created shoals of mud that would have blocked the entrance to the Straits of Gibraltar, which is over 1000 miles away.

It should also show a significant variance in crustal age/thickness between the Azores Plateau area, on the one hand, and the area to the south as well as the one to the west of the MAR. But from what is published there isn't such a variance.

cormac

The plain could initially have (??) sunk just below sea level and thus create shoals of mud, plus a very large area with floating debris. But the sinking could have continued for the following 12,000 years with an ever decreasing speed and the plain eventually ended up at the depth it is now, leaving behind  the Azores, its former mountains, as islands.

But I can't argue with your second point.

OK, Puzzler, Docyabut2, Mario Dantas, Proclus and others: I tried.

;)


#2064    cormac mac airt

cormac mac airt

    Non-Corporeal Being

  • Member
  • 7,930 posts
  • Joined:18 Jun 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tennessee, USA

Posted 11 February 2013 - 07:06 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 11 February 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

The plain could initially have (??) sunk just below sea level and thus create shoals of mud, plus a very large area with floating debris. But the sinking could have continued for the following 12,000 years with an ever decreasing speed and the plain eventually ended up at the depth it is now, leaving behind  the Azores, its former mountains, as islands.

But I can't argue with your second point.

OK, Puzzler, Docyabut2, Mario Dantas, Proclus and others: I tried.

;)

Which again couldn't have blocked the Straits of Gibraltar, which is what Plato says Atlantis destruction did. And even the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) has said the same thing*, that there was never a significant submergence of any part of the Azores Plateau at any point in human history.

But then that's not what Plato said since, both in Timaeus and Critias, he says that the island sunk. Not parts of it, but the island as a whole. Which means nothing remained above the surface.

The whole "Azores is Atlantis" idea defeats itself at every turn.

* - I know, because I asked them several years ago.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#2065    Everdred

Everdred

    Ectoplasmic Residue

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 194 posts
  • Joined:10 Jan 2013
  • Gender:Male

Posted 12 February 2013 - 12:14 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 11 February 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

Does the age and thickness of the crust in the Azores area contradict the process as described by Rod Martin?

It could still be as thick and old, even when it sunk deeper to eventually end up where it is now?

Martin has the Atlantis area being formed by a blockage of subduction c. 50-60 mya.  The Azores plateau dates to around 8 mya.

View PostAbramelin, on 11 February 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

"U.S. goes down when Canada goes up"
"Atlantis, as an island, was not attached to any glaciated landmasses, and so would experience no effect."

The Azores plateau, or better, the area Rod Martin suggested could once have been Atlantis, wasn't an isolated piece of continental shelf (I think it's called a 'craton'??), it was stretched out over part of the North American plate, the European plate, and the African plate, so whatever happened in both North America and Northern Europe could have an effect on that area.

And the plateau is on the same latitude as the US:

Posted Image

Martin's argument is that it would have felt the effect of both plates when the area was already unstable.

Let's step back and consider the basics of plate tectonics.  The plates of the Earth's crust are floating on a layer of molten rock called the mantle.  This floating follows principles of isostasy, so more voluminous portions of the crust sink further into the mantle (e.g. the crust beneath a mountain goes down further than the crust of a valley).  The crust comes in two forms, continental and oceanic.  Continental crust is less dense and thus far more voluminous than oceanic crust, hence why it protrudes above the water.  Glaciers, then, can only form on continental crust since oceanic crust is well below the water.  This means that continental crust will receive additional volume and mass from the presence of glaciers, causing them to extend further into the mantle, and then adjust upwards once the glaciers retreat.  This has no effect on the isostasy of the adjacent oceanic crust, even if the oceanic crust is on the same plate.  Therefore there is no way for Atlantis to be affected by this phenomenon.  The phenomenon is solely applicable to contiguous continental masses.  Hence England goes down when Scotland goes up because they are part of a single contiguous mass.




Quote

Sorry, I haven't found your link.

But I have seen a number of only slightly different representations of the split-up of Pangea, several of them having Iberia and North Africa separated from very early on, or beter: touching eachother, but not part of the same plate. And first you see Africa rotating anti-clockwise, and then pushing northward.

Maybe you could repost that link?

This animation - don't know if it's according to the latest findings - appears to contradict you:





.

Here's my link: http://pubs.usgs.gov...historical.html

Though I imagine the video you posted is probably more up to date, not to mention more detailed.

However it should be noted that the video starts c. 120 mya while the picture series starts c. 250 mya, and also that when watching the video the light blue represents submerged continental crust, whereas the picture series doesn't distinguish between submerged and exposed continental crust.

Now, according to the video, my description wasn't entirely correct, but still relatively correct.  At the time of the break up of Pangaea (starting with the initial formation of the Atlantic c. 240 mya) they were the same plate, and later split before the point at which the video starts.  But more importantly notice that there remained very little distance between them, and when the northward movement of Africa becomes more pronounced, it's still slanted eastward.  So there is some minimal compression where Morocco and Iberia are meeting, but none where the western extent of the oceanic crust of the plates are meeting (and indeed we don't have geological formations to evidence any compression there, as we know that the Azore plateau is much later and formed by uplift due to heating rather than compression).


#2066    DieChecker

DieChecker

    I'm a Rogue Scholar

  • Member
  • 21,326 posts
  • Joined:21 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portland, Oregon, USA

  • Hey, I'm not wrong. I'm just not completely right.

Posted 12 February 2013 - 02:45 AM

View PostMr Right Wing, on 08 February 2013 - 12:43 AM, said:

If we go with the literal interruptation of Platos Atlantis then a thousand miles opposite the straights of Gibralter used to exist a large island populated by the Atlantis civilization.

What do we find a thousand miles opposite the straights of Gibralter? A geologically very interesting part of the world. Its a place where three tectonic plates meet, where theres huge magma chambers large enough to fill super volcanos under the sea bed and where theres a lot of seismic activity. I propose the island of Atlantis was above water when the magma chambers were full and when they emptied it rapidly sunk several thousand feet.

All plausable.
Possible is not Plausible. Plausible means likely, I believe... and likely means a good chance. Which emptying magma chambers thousands of feet thick, causing a giant island to sink seems not to be a good chance. Possible, but not very likely.

I think the discussion should go back to Cadiz.

That is basically an island just up the coast from the entrance to the Med. It belonged to Carthage, from what I have read, when Plato was writing about Atlantis. Did Plato have a grudge against Carthage? From what I have read, the city was not wiped out till After Plato wrote about Atlantis, in the time of the Visigoth kingdoms. If Cadiz never was wiped out wince the time of its founding by Phenicians in the 11th century BCE, then why would Plato suggest it was totally submerged?

Apparently it was not named Gades till after the Romans conquored in the 3rd century.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#2067    docyabut2

docyabut2

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,523 posts
  • Joined:12 Aug 2011

Posted 12 February 2013 - 04:29 AM

Sorry guys but Rod Martin`s theory  does not make sense.


Plato
Moreover, there were a great number of elephants in the island; for as there was provision for all other sorts of animals, both for those which live in lakes and marshes and rivers, and also for those which live in mountains and on plains, so there was for the animal which is the largest and most voracious of all.

Plus there was a horse track all around the island for horses.

So how did these horses, elephants and bulls get to this island continent. He said there was once a land bridge from Europe and Africa, where these animals walked there, but theres no evidence of these animals ever originating from these islands in the Atlantic ocean.


Just like the American claimers of Atlantis, Atlantis had a army of ten thousand chariots, yet there were no chariots in the Americas.
It just gets me when some say ,well they were all wash away in the great flood. Give me a break:):)


#2068    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,127 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 12 February 2013 - 08:13 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 12 February 2013 - 04:29 AM, said:

Sorry guys but Rod Martin`s theory  does not make sense.


Plato
Moreover, there were a great number of elephants in the island; for as there was provision for all other sorts of animals, both for those which live in lakes and marshes and rivers, and also for those which live in mountains and on plains, so there was for the animal which is the largest and most voracious of all.

Plus there was a horse track all around the island for horses.

So how did these horses, elephants and bulls get to this island continent. He said there was once a land bridge from Europe and Africa, where these animals walked there, but theres no evidence of these animals ever originating from these islands in the Atlantic ocean.


Just like the American claimers of Atlantis, Atlantis had a army of ten thousand chariots, yet there were no chariots in the Americas.
It just gets me when some say ,well they were all wash away in the great flood. Give me a break:) :)

Everdred in his last post and Cormac have stronger geological/tectonical arguments against Martin's theory than you, Docyabut.


For instance, Martin never said horses and elephants 'originated' on the island. You yourself even noted they, according to Martin's theory, could have walked from Africa and Europe, across the landbridge, to the island. Meaning: they did NOT originate there.

And yes, 'washed' away. Read what I posted about what happened to Doggerland, 8150 BP. And if an Atlantis did exist once - Everdred and Cormac already made it clear it couldn't - and if it sunk the way it is supposed to have done, then the disaster must have been many times worse than what happened with Doggerland.


#2069    Abramelin

Abramelin

    -

  • Member
  • 18,127 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:"Here the tide is ruled, by the wind, the moon and us."

  • God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands

Posted 12 February 2013 - 08:16 AM

Everdred, I found a video that shows the continental drift from much earlier times than the one I posted before:



Btw, first it goes in fast forward, after that the animation restarts in a much slower pace.

(I can watch these videos forever, lol).

.

Edited by Abramelin, 12 February 2013 - 08:20 AM.


#2070    docyabut2

docyabut2

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,523 posts
  • Joined:12 Aug 2011

Posted 12 February 2013 - 11:06 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 12 February 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

Everdred in his last post and Cormac have stronger geological/tectonical arguments against Martin's theory than you, Docyabut.


For instance, Martin never said horses and elephants 'originated' on the island. You yourself even noted they, according to Martin's theory, could have walked from Africa and Europe, across the landbridge, to the island. Meaning: they did NOT originate there.

And yes, 'washed' away. Read what I posted about what happened to Doggerland, 8150 BP. And if an Atlantis did exist once - Everdred and Cormac already made it clear it couldn't - and if it sunk the way it is supposed to have done, then the disaster must have been many times worse than what happened with Doggerland.


In other words there are no fossil bones found of any of these animals on these islands lelf of the island continent Atlantis, so they could`nt have walked there.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users