Humpback whales have same brain cells as...

[SilverCougar]

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews....xml&src=rss

Read! *is to tired to do all that fancy shmancy stuff*

However, I will say this...

There are more then just one intelligent animal on this planet... it's time we start treating other animals like they were nothing more for our use and abuse.

[Altheia]

There are more then just one intelligent animal on this planet... it's time we start treating other animals like they were nothing more for our use and abuse.

which animals should we treat equally then?

believe it or not we are in fact the superior race on this planet.

alternatives are sought to minimilize animaluse/abuse...this takes time if we don't want this to effect us or slow/limit our evolution/way of life.

Don't get me wrong, im not pro animal-abuse. On the contrary.

[Tiggs]

That's the problem, though, SC...

Genesis 1:26

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

...some people feel that it's their god-given right to do whatever they want with other animal species...

Always comes back to here, doesn't it?

* Sighs *

[mdhmdh]

in my observation i think that dolphins are smarter than us in some was for one they can produce and process sound on a level that we can never hope to acheve

[Altheia]

in my observation i think that dolphins are smarter than us in some was for one they can produce and process sound on a level that we can never hope to acheve

that's like saying we're more intelligent cuz we produce sounds they don't understand.

Dolphins are not that smart is they are hyped to be.

If they would trully be highly intelligent, then why the hell does a goldfish feel the urge faster to escape from it's bowl then a dolphin out a tank? The barriers are low enough for a dolphin to jump over.

Wanting freedom is a sign of intelligence, dolphins do not want this or so it seems. Either they are plotting a major war or they are just ... well, dumb.

[SilverCougar]

Or maybe they feel the need to socialize and communicate with us.

Tell me.. what other animal helps people out in the ocean? Why do sailors revere them so highly? Pecause dolphins have been known to come out of their way to keeps humans that have fallen into the waters above the surface and help them to shore. I don't see other animal doing that.

[Raptor]

If they would trully be highly intelligent, then why the hell does a goldfish feel the urge faster to escape from it's bowl then a dolphin out a tank? The barriers are low enough for a dolphin to jump over.

Wanting freedom is a sign of intelligence, dolphins do not want this or so it seems.

Dolphins do not want to escape to freedom, so that means they're not intelligent?

That makes no sense at all.

[frogfish]

one they can produce and process sound on a level that we can never hope to acheve

That doesn't equate to intelligence. It equates to adaptation to their environment. They evolved that as a tool to locate prey while we evolved a superior "brain power" as our tool.

[zandore]

Genesis 1:26

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

"Will you teach your children what we have taught our children? That the earth is our mother? What befalls the earth befalls all the sons of the earth. "This we know: the earth does not belong to man, man belongs to the earth. All things are connected like the blood that unites us all. Man did not weave the web of life, he is merely a strand in it. Whatever he does to the web, he does to himself. "One thing we know: our god is also your god. The earth is precious to him and to harm the earth is to heap contempt on its creator.

-Chief Seattle, Dwamish - 1786-1866

...some people feel that it's their god-given right to do whatever they want with other animal species...

"We must protect the forests for our children, grandchildren and children yet to be born. We must protect the forests for those who can't speak for themselves such as the birds, animals, fish and trees."

Qwatsinas (Hereditary Chief Edward Moody), Nuxalk Nation

Rain-in-the-Face - Sioux (???-1905)

Always comes back to here, doesn't it?

* Sighs *

Yes it does......sadly Edited November 28, 2006 by zandore

[Altheia]

Dolphins do not want to escape to freedom, so that means they're not intelligent?

That makes no sense at all.

i did not write they are not intelligent i wrote : they are not as intelligent as they are hyped to be.

[Raptor]

i did not write they are not intelligent i wrote : they are not as intelligent as they are hyped to be.

Regardless, I just don't see how the desire for freedom can be associated with intelligence in any case.

[Altheia]

Regardless, I just don't see how the desire for freedom can be associated with intelligence in any case.

you have got to be kidding me..

[Raptor]

you have got to be kidding me..

No, I'm not.

Which animals, besides humans, make you think it's true?

[Ashigaru]

Well those animals have survived for millions of years so they can't be that stupid.

As for dolphins not wanting to be out in the wild, would you pass up an easy meal?

Hmm, having to hunt for food or having it given to you, what to choose?

Thats a tough one.

Edited December 3, 2006 by Ashigaru

[Altheia]

Well those animals have survived for millions of years so they can't be that stupid.

As for dolphins not wanting to be out in the wild, would you pass up an easy meal?

Hmm, having to hunt for food or having it given to you, what to choose?

Thats a tough one.

wow, don't you think you're giving them waaay too much credit now??

So according to you dolphins are so smart that they realise leaving the tank for more space equals no easy feeding time. Also they know, according to you, that there is something to hunt. Even if they spent their hole lifetime in a tank with same species. Ok they get fish, but how do they know that fish is something that's in the sea?

And if they're so smart to know that they're passing an easy meal if they go out, then why don't they just go out for a lil while a come back when it's feeding time? They're sooo intelligent right? They won't even try, so tame, so simpleminded.

Edited December 15, 2006 by Altheia

[Altheia]

No, I'm not.

Which animals, besides humans, make you think it's true?

...if you leave the cages open in a zoo i guarantee the animals will go out and explore. The search for freedom. Curiousity. Wanting to know more then "the bassin" or "the cage".

my own midget hamster always found inventive ways of getting out of his cage couple years back.

He didn't worry about not getting his easy meals, he just wanted out, explore.

Edited December 15, 2006 by Altheia

[Raptor]

...if you leave the cages open in a zoo i guarantee the animals will go out and explore. The search for freedom. Curiousity. Wanting to know more then "the bassin" or "the cage".

my own midget hamster always found inventive ways of getting out of his cage couple years back.

He didn't worry about not getting his easy meals, he just wanted out, explore.

Your point was that wanting freedom is a sign of intelligence; by saying that even a hamster tries to escape to freedom you just proved yourself wrong.

[Altheia]

Your point was that wanting freedom is a sign of intelligence; by saying that even a hamster tries to escape to freedom you just proved yourself wrong.

i also typed before that even a goldfish wants extra space sooner or later.

So no i haven't proven myself wrong, i have pointed out once again that dolphins aren't that smart.

do try to keep up.

Edited December 15, 2006 by Altheia

[Raptor]

i also typed before that even a goldfish wants extra space sooner or later.

So no i haven't proven myself wrong.

do try to keep up.

You suggested that dolphins aren't intelligent because goldfish try to escape more quickly than them; and that wanting to escape is indicatory of intelligence, meaning that dolphins can't be that much more intelligent that a goldfish.

The fact that goldfish, and now hamsters, try to escape proves that the desire for freedom isn't a product of intelligence. To show that it is, you'd need lots of examples of intelligent animals that behave like you say.

Listing loads of random unintelligent animals which do want freedom, doesn't really back up your point that intelligent animals want it.

i have pointed out once again that dolphins aren't that smart

No, you simply reiterated the same invalid point again.

Edited December 15, 2006 by Raptor X7

[Altheia]

You suggested that dolphins aren't intelligent because goldfish try to escape more quickly than them; and that wanting to escape is indicatory of intelligence, meaning that dolphins can't be that much more intelligent that a goldfish.

The fact that goldfish, and now hamsters, try to escape proves that the desire for freedom isn't a product of intelligence. To show that it is, you'd need lots of examples of intelligent animals that behave like you say.

Listing loads of random unintelligent animals which do want freedom, doesn't really back up your point that intelligent animals want it.

No, you simply reiterated the same invalid point again.

Begin last post

If you read closely i also mentioned a zoo. A zoo holds all sorts of animals: monkey's (which are considered intelligent), bears, giraffes...all that crap.

So im not only listing the so called "lesser" intelligent animals.

And for the last damn time, im not saying dolphins are not intelligent. Im saying that are not AS intelligent as they are hyped out to be...sigh.

Now to explain one of the basics of logics.

With humans the thirst for freedom is considered an intelligence factor. If you find this in animals they show a form of intelligence. It's a diversion you see.

Dolphins do not show this factor, on the contrary, they are timid and easily tameable. They do tricks, well good for them. The intelligent response to learning tricks would be rebellion. Again, a form of wanting freedom.

Yes, circusanimals like the tiger also do tricks (sometimes they rebel tho, and are not as easy to tame as dolphins) and yes they will try to escape faster than a dolphin. So i consider them to be more intelligent.

Maybe dolphins are plotting something with their high frequenced "voices" who knows, maybe the rebellion is forming. Fact is that it hasn't yet or never will. Thus, so far, they are less intelligent than animals that do seek freedom in various ways.

Goldfish and hamsters are also more intelligent on the freedomseeking level apparantly yes.

It's an important factor for superior intelligent beings, as us humans, to be free ... or at least live in the illusion of freedom. One who does not seek it is considered simple and dumb.

And now i don't mean that all the nerds in front of their pc's are dumb because they do not seek more space. You have freedom on more levels than the space one.

But if you let a human in a tank do tricks day after day, while being able to just leap to another bigger more free one, the human will do it. It's the smart thing to do, the open minded thing to do. Wanting to learn, wanting to know more.

Hereby i would like to congratulate myself for doing my best in formulating the basics of logics in a fairly good way i believe.

Well done me.

End last post

[Clobhair-cean]

There is just one little problem with your argument... The brains and intelligence of the dolphins cannot be compared to that of land animals, simply because their natural habitats are so wastly different. The dolphin does not percieve the world as land-based animals do. I have never heard of a single water-living creature (apart from Willy) that jumped over some obstacle, their minds simply 'lack' that solution due to the rareness of the problem (Konrad Lorenz proved by experiment that certain praerie-living birds have similar non-reations to obstaels simply becuse they don't have them in their natural habitats). They surely possess a thirst for freedom (just compare the dorsal fins of a wild and a captive killer whale, you'll see the abnormality that captivity causes), but they do not have the mental means of escape. On the other hand, cetaceans have shown incredible communicational and organizing, for example in one experiment, dolphins were taught a simple sign/sound language and they could generate simple Subject-Object-Verb sentences. Dolphins are also great coordinators: They have been seen driving fish out from the water in a close formation in which a group of dolphins swam sideways while each one's back was pressed against another's belly in order to have one big mass of dolphins in order to maximize effectiveness. They recognize themselves in a mirror and have identities. Also, they can use tools: the humpbacks frequently use walls of bubbles againts large groups of fish in order to herd them into one big group. These are all signs of higher intellect which does not appear in hamsters r golfish

[Altheia]

I have never heard of a single water-living creature (apart from Willy) that jumped over some obstacle, their minds simply 'lack' that solution due to the rareness of the problem

oh for crying out loud, the goldfish (and im not making this up no) jumps from one bowl to a bigger after some time, simply because it has more space.

so what you type in untrue.

Birds also form groups to look bigger.

To make things short and finalize my posting in this thread: dolphins are not smarter than other animals/mammals, as ppl like to think. They are overhyped.

I rest my case.

Now go on, waste some more minutes on proving me wrong, and oh please yes do mention how dolphins are smarter cuz of this and that, ONCE AGAIN. hourah.

[Raptor]

Altheia, my point was that there's nothing to show that the desire for freedom is at all related to intelligence.

Animals tend to explore larger territories so that they can do what they need to do; generally that involves finding food, shelter and a mate. They obviously have a better chance of doing that in a larger area. Most animals have no concept of 'freedom' at all.

I believe dolphins don't need to 'escape' because they're intelligent, they're able to see that they have everything they need already provided for them in their tank.

[Clobhair-cean]

oh for crying out loud, the goldfish (and im not making this up no) jumps from one bowl to a bigger after some time, simply because it has more space.

so what you type in untrue.

Birds also form groups to look bigger.

To make things short and finalize my posting in this thread: dolphins are not smarter than other animals/mammals, as ppl like to think. They are overhyped.

I rest my case.

Now go on, waste some more minutes on proving me wrong, and oh please yes do mention how dolphins are smarter cuz of this and that, ONCE AGAIN. hourah.

Goldfish jump out not because they know that there is freedom on the outside, but simply start off to the direction where there is no wall, and that by chance means up and out. It is a simple panic reaction and has nothing to do with an abstract concept like freedom which can only be understod by humans. Animals go out of their cage by chance or because they are curious, not because they want to be free: A lion in a zoo is as happy as it can be: It can lay round all day, it gets food without the annoyace of hunting and there is no competition.

As for birds: Show me a grup of birds which herds together a group of 'prey', then in a close and highly organzied formation chase them somewhere whereit cannot escape. plus, there is almost zero visibility in the coastal waters where this occurs, so there must be some form of coordinating communication between the individuals...

[ShaunZero]

that's like saying we're more intelligent cuz we produce sounds they don't understand.

Dolphins are not that smart is they are hyped to be.

If they would trully be highly intelligent, then why the hell does a goldfish feel the urge faster to escape from it's bowl then a dolphin out a tank? The barriers are low enough for a dolphin to jump over.

Wanting freedom is a sign of intelligence, dolphins do not want this or so it seems. Either they are plotting a major war or they are just ... well, dumb.

I agree with you. There are some types of things that it seems an "intelligent animal" would do, but they usually don't. I think most people make out animals to be smarter than they actually are.

I've never seen any other animal make any technology, or anything even close to as complex as what humans can do. The only excuse I'll get is probably "Maybe they don't want to".

I could probably dimenstrate how a knife works in front of a friendly dolphin by stabbing a watermelon in front of one, then raising it and pretending to stab the dolphin, and I bet it'd just look at me... If anything just the swing would startle it. I could probably pet the damn thing with the knife and it wouldn't even realize that what I'm doing is dangerous. This is the type of thing I'm talking about, which displays how they are not as intelligent as humans.

I bet they can't use logic anywhere near ours.(Talking about at it's best, because I know some humans are just stupid XD)

Edited December 16, 2006 by Zero of Deism