Viking mystery

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Hello dear UMers!

Recently I read on one Croatian forum interesting thread so no one gave logic conclusion so I will ask here.

We know that Pizzaro and Cortes beside guns,steel and horses bring germs which have devastating effect on native population.

Ofcourse negative effect was seen in North america. How come that Vikings didnt spread germs/disaese to North America Indians?

Were they imun? If so how come? Or natives did suffer from small pox from Vikings?

Thanks in advance.

[Abramelin]

Their numbers were too small, and their presence too short.

And there may not have been much close contact between the natives and the Vikings.

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Edited September 2, 2012 by Abramelin

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Their numbers were too small, and their presence too short.

So? Native didnt have imunity. Once few were diseased they mix in villages,they even trade with other tribes. Pandemic should killed 90% of them.

Also we have accounts that they trade with Vikings. Took helmet, fur and stuff. They traded for a year as I can remember.

Edited September 2, 2012 by the L

[Big Bad Voodoo]

And there may not have been much close contact between the natives and the Vikings.

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Yes there were. In end they scalp them. They traded.

I thought that Vikings somehow didnt bring Germs? Maybe colder climate is reason?

Edited September 2, 2012 by the L

[Abramelin]

They were scalped and they traded?

Source please.

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EDIT:

Reverse that order of events, lol.

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Edited September 2, 2012 by Abramelin

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Saga of the Greenlanders. Plus historians argued that they must been trade first before conflict begun.

Edited September 2, 2012 by the L

[Hasina]

Who's to say that they didn't get hit by a pandemic? Maybe it only affected the very northern Native, and as they traded more south the diseases just kinda died off. Or mayhap the northern Natives were actually immune? Who's to say but the Natives and Vikings.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Who's to say that they didn't get hit by a pandemic? Maybe it only affected the very northern Native, and as they traded more south the diseases just kinda died off. Or mayhap the northern Natives were actually immune? Who's to say but the Natives and Vikings.

Not that I hold any side of story I must say that natives in America was not imune. Why? because they didnt develop imunnity on certain disease which Euroasians did. Why? because they slept in early ages of civilization with domesticated animals cow, sheep, horse, goat and similar. Natives didnt slept with those animals.

On other hand if they were hit by pandemic we would have archaelogical accounts. Mass graves and similar. Not all Indians burned their dead as burial practice. Also other would developed imunnity so when later Europeans came they would be imun. But they didnt. Maybe Im wrong that they would developed imunity in 500 years.

Edited September 2, 2012 by the L

[Emma_Acid]

As has been pointed out - their numbers were small, weren't there for very long and had nothing like the same involvement with the natives as the Spanish did.

[Hasina]

Then it's a mystery. Just keep reading what the researchers have to say on the issues. I'm coming at this with very limited knowledge and as you said there's evidence of contact but no evidence of diseases that we've seen. Didn't the Vikings make contact with the Natives before other Europeans did? So that's an even murkier point of history and the modem world just recently began to accept the early contact theory. So there's probably evidence somewhere.

Edited September 2, 2012 by Hasina

[Big Bad Voodoo]

As has been pointed out - their numbers were small, weren't there for very long and had nothing like the same involvement with the natives as the Spanish did.

That isnt explaination. Black plaque came with one boat into Europe.

Then it's a mystery.

So far it is.

[questionmark]

That isnt explaination. Black plaque came with one boat into Europe.

Boolcrappy, the black plague came with the Mongols who did seldom use ships and spread into Europe through several channels. What is true is that the first recorded case in Italy came on a ship. But at that time there were other cases in northern and Eastern Europe.

Now to smallpox, it is very possible that it spread out of Africa with the Arabian conquerors in the 8th and 9th century, at least according to the records we have, therefore it can very well be that the Vikings in the 11th and 12th century were not affected at all.

[Abramelin]

So? Native didnt have imunity. Once few were diseased they mix in villages,they even trade with other tribes. Pandemic should killed 90% of them.

Also we have accounts that they trade with Vikings. Took helmet, fur and stuff. They traded for a year as I can remember.

Maybe that tribe died off too fast, after they killed the Vikings, to ever again visit their neighbours.

And what is your proof they traded those helmets and the rest? Those helmets and stuff could have been found by others long after they died.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Boolcrappy, the black plague came with the Mongols who did seldom use ships and spread into Europe through several channels. What is true is that the first recorded case in Italy came on a ship. But at that time there were other cases in northern and Eastern Europe.

Im only aware that about plaqued ship which came in Italy and which cause pandemic.Im not aware of those other cases. Link would be nice. Second it isnt "boolcrapy" at all. My example prooves what Im implying in previous posts.

So what you want to say that we have evidence of Arabs came to north America? In fact I would call them Berbers rather.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Maybe that tribe died off too fast, after they killed the Vikings, to ever again visit their neighbours.

And what is your proof they traded those helmets and the rest? Those helmets and stuff could have been found by others long after they died.

I read once. I will search quotes from historians ASAP. Also as I remember in Saga they say something about trade with natives.

About your conclusion-same thing gone trough my mind. That was my first reaction. Brain storm. But then again if pandemic started they would probably go to consult other Shamans/Witch doctors in other tribes.

[questionmark]

Im only aware that about plaqued ship which came in Italy and which cause pandemic.Im not aware of those other cases. Link would be nice. Second it isnt "boolcrapy" at all. My example prooves what Im implying in previous posts.

So what you want to say that we have evidence of Arabs came to north America? In fact I would call them Berbers rather.

I don't know of any Arabs going to North America until after Columbus, what I am saying that the smallpox most probably came to Europe in the 8th or 9th century with the Arabs (Umayyad caliphs). Therefore it is well possible that the 11th and 12th century vikings were not affected at all by it.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Also I was under impression that Vikings left because of hostility. Wouldnt they notice that something wierd is happeneing?

[Big Bad Voodoo]

I don't know of any Arabs going to North America until after Columbus, what I am saying that the smallpox most probably came to Europe in the 8th or 9th centurywith the Arabs (Umayyad caliphs). Therefore it is well possible that the 11th and 12th century vikings were not affected at all by it.

How do you know? Far as I know Vikings were in Baghdad.

Also Europeans didnt just bring Small pox.

Then native would developed imunity on other disease. But they didnt.

[questionmark]

How do you know? Far as I know Vikings were in Baghdad.

Also Europeans didnt just bring Small pox.

Then native would developed imunity on other disease. But they didnt.

The Vikings did not get syphilis either, so that makes Abe's postulate that they probably had little contact with the natives all the more plausible.

And smallpox killed those who were in direct contact with the Europeans or direct contact with those who did, other population were completely unaffected else there would be no native left. Besides that there are still populations in the Amazons that in this day could be eradicated by European diseases.

[Abramelin]

I read once. I will search quotes from historians ASAP. Also as I remember in Saga they say something about trade with natives.

About your conclusion-same thing gone trough my mind. That was my first reaction. Brain storm. But then again if pandemic started they would probably go to consult other Shamans/Witch doctors in other tribes.

You should not use the word "pandemic". A pandemic is when millions get killed on one continent (and maybe on other continents too).

Maybe just a local tribe got killed by some bug or virus.

That's an "epidemic".

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Edited September 2, 2012 by Abramelin

[notoverrated]

idk why cant the answer be "it just didn't happen" ?

[Big Bad Voodoo]

The Vikings did not get syphilis either, so that makes Abe's postulate that they probably had little contact with the natives all the more plausible.

And smallpox killed those who were in direct contact with the Europeans or direct contact with those who did, other population were completely unaffected else there would be no native left. Besides that there are still populations in the Amazons that in this day could be eradicated by European diseases.

We know that in meso america and in south america 90% of indians were hit by diseases. Why would north be different?

Maybe the vikings didn't have germs to begin with when arriving to America. And/But if they did pass it on to the Indians, could it have been possible that maybe they put the sick in quarantine?

They did. Every Euroasian had them.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

You should not use the word "pandemic". A pandemic is when millions get killed on one continent (and maybe on other continents too).

Maybe just a local tribe got killed by some bug or virus.

That's an "epidemic".

.

I wonder why pandemic didnt happened, it did happened in south when Europeans came.

Pizzaro conquer Incas with 169 soldiers. Cortes had 500 soldiers. cca. Not to mention that Cortes in first battle loose 45 of his men.

Edited September 2, 2012 by the L

[docyabut2]

Maybe due to cold climate, the disease was`nt as potent, the vinkings landed in Canada, where as the Spanish landed in the southern warmer climate.

Edited September 2, 2012 by docyabut2

[Swede]

Hello dear UMers!

Recently I read on one Croatian forum interesting thread so no one gave logic conclusion so I will ask here.

We know that Pizzaro and Cortes beside guns,steel and horses bring germs which have devastating effect on native population.

Ofcourse negative effect was seen in North america. How come that Vikings didnt spread germs/disaese to North America Indians?

Were they imun? If so how come? Or natives did suffer from small pox from Vikings?

Thanks in advance.

L - Am short on time, but just a couple of factors.

The tracing of epidemiology in the historical/archaeological record can be quite complex. As noted in the qualified reference kindly supplied by Questionmark:

First introduction of smallpox to Iceland from Denmark (1241).

http://whqlibdoc.who...561106_chp5.pdf

This date would, of course, predate the occupation of L'anse Aux Meadows by some 240 years. It also would not incorporate the potential transmission from Iceland to Greenland to Newfoundland. For a rather condensed evaluation of the spread/distribution of the two primary variants of the virus:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC1200696/

As to the short-term presence of the early Scandinavians in the region of northeastern North America - Research would tend to indicate that the time period in question is associated with the onset of the "Little Ice Age". This climatic shift is well documented, particularly in regards to the northern hemisphere. Thus, one may be dealing with a number of factors, both cultural and climatological. Can provide further detail if desired.

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