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The Incas, explorers of the Pacific


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#121    third_eye

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 11:32 PM

Posted Image

The restoration job here looks botched up ... I wish they'll just leave things alone and leave it to the professional restorers.
That thing just looks sad ....

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#122    Abramelin

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 05:20 AM

LOL.  so I was fooled.

Thanks everyone.


#123    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 08:41 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 25 April 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

Where did you get that from (see bolded line)?

.
Isn't it obvious.
Who put out english/spanish translations of the native sources first?
Who exploited these people and continue to propound their versions of the same texts for centuries?
Now when we read these sources, they have already been propounded as the correct version for centuries. I belive there must have been a lot of distortion some intentional and some unintentional done by the early Spanish.
Foe eg- the Human sacrifice issue was blown up and given as a proof of these people being barbaric and demonic and was used to almost exterminate them by the conquestedors. I don't think these early spanish looters would have had the right intellectual capability and frame of mind to report correct versions of the actual cultural practices and their significance prevalent in those times ignoring their personal bais and supremacist mentality.

Edited by Harsh86_Patel, 26 April 2013 - 08:42 AM.


#124    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 08:57 AM

View PostHarte, on 25 April 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

Not really, when you consider it's part of a headdress, as you can see in the pic at left.

It's a macaw, alright.  The words "King 18 Rabbit is in the guise of the "Macaw Mountain Lord." are carved on the stela.

Don't fall for fringe arguments.

You ever seen scales like that around an elephant eye?
Ever looked at a macaw?

The macaw is all over Mayan mythology, as is the jaguar.

Funny, they don't mention elephants.

Those tiny guys with the macaw are called "ways." They are little spirit creatures and they regularly accompany Mayan rulers.  You can find them in other motifs riding snakes as well.

Harte
Another stylised Macaw for you Harte, can you see the scales on the ears and the trunk?

Posted Image


P.S.- regarding the motiff you commented on,The scales as you claim them to be are not around the eyes, they are around the ear. Domseticated elephants usually headresses as a decorations and some headress had bird feathers and scales as well.

Edited by Harsh86_Patel, 26 April 2013 - 09:00 AM.


#125    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 09:26 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 25 April 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

Harsh, a question: if people from India came to the Americas, settled there and influenced American native culture, how would that show up in American DNA?

I agree with you there are several really amazing similarities between ancient Indian culture and American (=> Meso American) culture, but if these contacts were extensive and maybe lasting for some centuries, we should be able to see that in the genetical record, right?

I couldn't find anything.


.
Abe peoples/traditions from India may have migrated to south east Asia and from there on to South America through polynesia.

Now there are two possibilities according to me, the people actually migrated from India or the traditions were passed on and were carried across.

The genetic data will be relevant only once we can determine when such a migration happened, if it happened say in 12000 BC when the global population was relatively low and an entire tribe decided to leave a particular geographic location and move to another for whatever reason, then the particular geneitc traits carried by the tribe will dissappear from location A and appear at the Destination location B. When we would try to analyse current gentic data, it would seem to us that the two peoples i.e the ones still found in location A but of a different tribe and the ones found in Location B are not genetically related.I would be vary of the migrations hypothesis based on Gentic data alone for the same reason.

A genetic link would not be necessary if only the tradition and culture was propogated. For example the ramayan is known almost throughout south east Asia, and there are variations observed.


Southeast Asian versions


Posted Image


Posted ImageHanuman discover Shinta in her captive in Lanka depicted in Balinese dance.



Posted Image


Posted ImageLakshmana, Rama andShinta during their exile inDandaka Forest depicted inJavanese dance.


Many other Asian cultures have adapted the Ramayana, resulting in other national epics. In Indonesia, Kakawin Ramayana is an oldJavanese rendering; Yogesvara Ramayana is attributed to the scribe Yogesvara circa 9th century CE, who was employed in the court of the Medang in Central Java. It has 2774 stanzas in manipravala style, a mixture of Sanskrit and Kawi language. The most influential version of the Ramayana is the Ravanavadham of Bhatti, popularly known as Bhattikavya. The Javanese Ramayana differs markedly from the original Hindu prototype. The 9th century Javanese Kakawin Ramayana has become the reference of Ramayana in the neighboring island of Bali. The bas reliefs of Ramayana and Krishnayana scenes is carved on balustrades wall of 9th centuryPrambanan temples in Yogyakarta. In Indonesia, Ramayana has been integrated into local culture especially those of Javanese,Balinese and Sundanese, and has become the source of moral and spiritual guidance as well as aesthetic expression and also entertainment. Cultural performances such as Wayang shadow puppet and traditional dances often took their story from Ramayana. In Bali as well as in Java, the dances based on the episode of Ramayana often performed in temples such as Prambanan in Java andPura in Bali.

Phra Lak Phra Lam is a Lao language version, whose title comes from Lakshmana and Rama. The story of Lakshmana and Rama is told as the previous life of the Buddha. In Hikayat Seri Rama of Malaysia, Dasharatha is the great-grandson of the Prophet Adam. Ravana receives boons from Allah instead of Brahma.[71] In many Malay language versions, Lakshmana is given greater importance than Rama, whose character is considered somewhat weak.[citation needed]


Posted Image


Posted ImageThe Thai retelling of the tale, theRamakien, is popularly expressed in traditional regional dance theatre.



Posted Image


Posted ImageRama (Yama) and Sita (Me Thida) in the Burmese version of the Ramayana, Yama Zatdaw


The Cambodian version of Ramayana, the Reamker, is the most famous story of Khmer Literature since the Funan era. It adapts the Hindu concepts to Buddhist themes and shows the balance of good and evil in the world. The Reamker has several differences from the original Ramayana, including scenes not included in the original and emphasis on Hanuman and Sovanna Maccha, a retelling which influences the Thai and Lao versions. Reamker in Cambodia is not confined to the realm of literature but extends to all Cambodian art forms, such as sculpture, Khmer classical dance, theatre known as Lakhorn Luang (the foundation of the royal ballet),poetry and the mural and bas reliefs seen at the Silver Pagoda and Angkor wat.

Thailand's popular national epic Ramakien (Thai: รามเกียรติ์, from Sanskrit rāmakīrti, "Glory of Rama") is derived from the Hindu epic. In Ramakien, Sita is the daughter of Ravana and Mandodari (Thotsakan and Montho). Vibhisana (Phiphek), the astrologer brother of Ravana, predicts calamity from the horoscope of Sita. Ravana has her thrown into the water, who, later, is picked by Janaka (Chanok). While the main story is identical to that of the Ramayana, many other aspects were transposed into a Thai context, such as the clothes, weapons, topography, and elements of nature, which are described as being Thai in style. It has an expanded role for Hanuman and he is portrayed as a lascivious character. Ramakien can be seen in an elaborate illustration at Wat Phra Kaew in Bangkok.

Other Southeast Asian adaptations include Ramakavaca of Bali (Indonesia), Maharadia Lawana and Darangen of Mindanao (Philippines), and the Yama Zatdaw of Myanmar.

[edit]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramayana


The interpretation of current genetic data in context of mapping ancient migrations or relations between ancient peoples, is not a very accurate science as of now. There are a series of assumptions involved for eg- in what point of time a particular indicator mutation in a particular gene has been thought to occur etc.I had put out a list of these in one of my posts will try to link it here.

All we can comment open is based on cultural similarities and certain ancient texts that may hold clues to such migrations if they occured.


#126    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 09:29 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 26 April 2013 - 05:20 AM, said:

LOL.  so I was fooled.

Thanks everyone.
Tarry a while before you decide.


#127    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 09:33 AM

View Postthird_eye, on 25 April 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

Posted Image

The restoration job here looks botched up ... I wish they'll just leave things alone and leave it to the professional restorers.
That thing just looks sad ....

Posted Image


#128    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 10:31 AM

Posted Image

The eye and the apparently pigmented ear are seperate.

Posted Image

Other Macaw motifs in Mayan art.

Four main points that stand out:
1. The eye and the ear are differently and clearly depicted with a long elongated trunk.
2. The size of the people sitting around the head clearly indicate a large head like that of an elephant.
3. No other comparable Macaw motif is observed in mayan art.
4. The pattern at the side of the trunk looks comparable to tusks.


#129    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 11:00 AM

Posted Image

I feel the pattern at the side of the trunk is actually on the tusk.You can see how the tusk is protruding

And please those who think this motif is closer to being a macaw then an elephant please look at actual macaws more closely.


#130    The_Spartan

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 12:02 PM

AS IF..he can negate all the efforts and expertise of those who spend ages and ages of field works and education.
A goddamn armchair Psuedo-whatever-ian!~! Ba Humbug!!!

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#131    third_eye

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 12:36 PM

Well I can't deny I see an elephant, whether it is or not initially as sculpted, I can't say.

But these guys knows their stone sculptures, I'll give it a benefit of a doubt if based solely on the renowned and undeniable skills of these ancient men of the arts.

What's the big deal anyways ? Humans been painting pachyderms since the days of 'holy' caves/mountains.




@Harsh86_Patel

that's an Asian though not a pygmy .... pygmies are waaay nicer :)

Posted Image

but they're more dangerous because they can chase you around trees being smaller but big enough to trample you to a pulp
:D



~edit : dang 'T' key

Edited by third_eye, 26 April 2013 - 12:44 PM.

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#132    cormac mac airt

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 12:46 PM

View Postthird_eye, on 26 April 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

Well I can't deny I see an elephant, whether it is or not initially as sculpted, I can't say.

But these guys knows their stone sculptures, I'll give it a benefit of a doubt if based solely on the renowned and undeniable skills of these ancient men of the arts.

What's the big deal anyways ? Humans been painting pachyderms since the days of 'holy' caves/mountains.




@Harsh86_Patel

that's an Asian though not a pygmy .... pygmies are waaay nicer :)

Posted Image

but they're more dangerous because they can chase you around trees being smaller but big enough to trample you to a pulp
:D



~edit : dang 'T' key

It's rather unlikely one would paint a picture/create a sculpture of an animal that hasn't existed since the end of the last glacial period.

cormac

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#133    third_eye

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:02 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 26 April 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

It's rather unlikely one would paint a picture/create a sculpture of an animal that hasn't existed since the end of the last glacial period.

cormac

not from visual inspiration perhaps, but evidently here its an insinuating element of the 'trunk'
they might have some sort of stories of such a legendary creature that carries that distinct identity, a glorified 'tapir' perhaps ?

Posted Image

http://en.wikipedia...._American_tapir

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#134    cormac mac airt

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:15 PM

View Postthird_eye, on 26 April 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

not from visual inspiration perhaps, but evidently here its an insinuating element of the 'trunk'
they might have some sort of stories of such a legendary creature that carries that distinct identity, a glorified 'tapir' perhaps ?

Posted Image

http://en.wikipedia...._American_tapir

The downside to this idea is that 1) tapirs don't have long trunks and 2) one has to completely ignore the actual text written on Stela B which does, indeed, associate the king with being "Lord of the Macaw Mountain":


Quote

Stela B. Celebrating the 9.15.0.0.0 period ending, Waxaklajuun Ub'aah K'awiil is depicted here using the typical Copan "turban", while his bicephalic ceremonial bar emits two tiny images of the rain deity Chaak. It has been suggested that this is due to the fact that, on 9.15.0.0.0, Venus was at its maximum elongation in the area of the sky that corresponds to our constellation Virgo, which the Maya saw as associated with Chaak. Aside from talking about the monument's erection, Stela B's text specifically mentions that the monument was meant to display the king as the Lord of the Macaw Mountain, which may have been either a real or mythical place associated with Copan.

http://www.mesoweb.c...an/tour/24.html

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#135    third_eye

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Posted 26 April 2013 - 01:26 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 26 April 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

The downside to this idea is that 1) tapirs don't have long trunks and 2) one has to completely ignore the actual text written on Stela B which does, indeed, associate the king with being "Lord of the Macaw Mountain":

cormac

That's the point of separation isn't it ?
If they get the interpretation of the 'image' off course then they are allowed to question other interpretations, I know their ways, here they got a toe hold, I don't begrudge them. :lol:

Anyways, I think the fringees have gone on to greener pastures.... :tu:

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