52 replies to this topic

[MiskatonicGrad]

Likely Guy, on 06 November 2012 - 05:54 AM, said:

The same government hasn't ruled the US since it's founding either. Most of the signers of the Declaration were slave owners as well.Belief's and values change.

But that's my point the more our values and beliefs get away from what the framers wanted the harder it will be for america to maintain the level of prosperity it has enjoyed. the only way to avoid this is to change the values built into the constitution or the values of the people running the goverment.

[Likely Guy]

Karlis, on 06 November 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

Political leaders' Religious beliefs should not be an issue, imo. Attacking a person for their religious beliefs is quite another thing.

I totally agree with your first point. Regarding your second point, you're not suggesting though that I was attacking anyone's religious beliefs are you?*confused*

[Likely Guy]

MiskatonicGrad, on 06 November 2012 - 06:01 AM, said:

But that's my point the more our values and beliefs get away from what the framers wanted the harder it will be for america to maintain the level of prosperity it has enjoyed. the only way to avoid this is to change the values built into the constitution or the values of the people running the goverment.

You missed (or glided by) my point about the slave owners who signed the Declaration. I said 'most' which was wrong. A third who signed were slave owners, however 2/3's who framed it were slave owners.

It took 90 some odd years and 12 previous ammendents to the Constitution to get that right.

My point is that they were all well intentioned men that meant the best for their fledgling nation, but they weren't perfect by any sense. Belief's and values as well as nations, change.

Edited by Likely Guy, 06 November 2012 - 06:25 AM.

[MiskatonicGrad]

Likely Guy, on 06 November 2012 - 06:21 AM, said:

You missed (or glided by) my point about the slave owners who signed the Declaration. I said 'most' which was wrong. A third who signed were slave owners, however 2/3's who framed it were slave owners.

It took 90 some odd years and 12 previous ammendents to the Constitution to get that right.

My point is that they were all well intentioned men that meant the best for their fledgling nation, but they weren't perfect by any sense. Belief's and values as well as nations, change.

I chose to ignore it. yeah it took us 88yrs. to come to our senses and free the slaves and we've been hearing about it for the last 148.

[ninjadude]

MiskatonicGrad, on 06 November 2012 - 03:23 AM, said:

our founding fathers it is our christian duty to be involved in politics.

No they didn't. For they knew that we were not all Christian.

[ninjadude]

MiskatonicGrad, on 06 November 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:

My point is this country was founded with certain values in mind and the farther we as a nation get away from those values the harded we are going to find it to survive.

I think you're ascribing values to the constitution that do not exist.

[MiskatonicGrad]

ninjadude, on 07 November 2012 - 01:35 AM, said:

I think you're ascribing values to the constitution that do not exist.

I'm not sure what values you think I'm refering too. so let me clear it up some the framers had three major influences when writing the constitution the writings of baron Montesquieu, the commentaries of Sir William Blackstone, and (wait for it) The Bible "gasp". from Montesquieu we get the sepration of powers and blackstone gave us the rule of law he is still cited about 12 times a year by the supreme court and from the bible you can draw many similarities as to how God wanted his people to be ruled and how our founders tried to morph that into our constitution.

A little side note if you look in Judges 9 ver 8-15 as to why we can't find a good leader for this country. bear in mind this parable was written thousands of years ago and still holds true today.

[Mr. Smith]

I hope Obama doesn't just threaten joodayo-xian edicts. I hope he crushes them. Time for people to figure out right from wrong without the help of ancient, conflicted comic books from the sky. Might save a few lives and create a few more scientists in the process.

But we know that won't happen. Just more fear mongering from right wing church leaders who know their congregants, if given half  a chance to think for themselves, will. And most churches don't like thinkers. noop.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

MiskatonicGrad, on 07 November 2012 - 02:29 AM, said:

I'm not sure what values you think I'm refering too. so let me clear it up some the framers had three major influences when writing the constitution the writings of baron Montesquieu, the commentaries of Sir William Blackstone, and (wait for it) The Bible "gasp". from Montesquieu we get the sepration of powers and blackstone gave us the rule of law he is still cited about 12 times a year by the supreme court and from the bible you can draw many similarities as to how God wanted his people to be ruled and how our founders tried to morph that into our constitution.

A little side note if you look in Judges 9 ver 8-15 as to why we can't find a good leader for this country. bear in mind this parable was written thousands of years ago and still holds true today.

Did you know Thomas Jefferson refuted utterly every supernatural aspect of the life, times and teachings of Jesus? He maybe be a follower of Christ, but by just about every definition of what it means to be Christian he wasn't.

[MiskatonicGrad]

Wearer of Hats, on 07 November 2012 - 04:22 AM, said:

Did you know Thomas Jefferson refuted utterly every supernatural aspect of the life, times and teachings of Jesus? He maybe be a follower of Christ, but by just about every definition of what it means to be Christian he wasn't.

You do know we had more than one founding father?

Edited by MiskatonicGrad, 07 November 2012 - 05:06 AM.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

MiskatonicGrad, on 07 November 2012 - 05:05 AM, said:

You do know we had more than one founding father?

Quote

Historian Gregg L. Frazer argues that the leading Founders (Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Wilson, Morris, Madison, Hamilton, and Washington) were neither Christians nor Deists, but rather supporters of a hybrid "theistic rationalism".

Would you look at that...

That said, 51 of the 55 "Founding Fathers" called themselves Christian for census purposes - 49 of them Protestants, so really not "proper" Christians

[ninjadude]

MiskatonicGrad, on 07 November 2012 - 05:05 AM, said:

You do know we had more than one founding father?

Yes, like my ancestor Roger Williams who wanted a HIGH WALL between religion and government.

[MiskatonicGrad]

Our founding fathers used biblical principles in the forming of the constitution quoting any historian trying to prove the religious beliefs of the founders is not going to change that.

So back to my original point the farther our nation gets away from those principles the harder it is for our nation to prosper?

I don't know why when someone brings up the part religion had in the formation of this country everybodies panties get in a wad

the truth is the truth swallow it with a spoon full of sugar if it helps

[Neognosis]

Quote

But that's my point the more our values and beliefs get away from what the framers wanted the harder it will be for america to maintain the level of prosperity it has enjoyed.

I think not buying cheap chinese made crap would go a lot farther toward restoring our level of prosperity, rather than denying homosexuals the right to marry.

I'm also curious as to what "values" you think our founding fathers pulled from the bible. As far as I can recall, the founding fathers were trying to convince people to deny the divine right of kings, and the only other stuff from the bible that I recall involving government was when christ said "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's."

Aside from that, there's a whole bunch of stuff about when you can beat and/or kill your slaves, and how slaves should obey their masters, but we don't seem to have stuck to that. Is that what you are talking about?

What other values that are in the constitution (which isn't really about values at all) do you think are from the bible?

[MiskatonicGrad]

Neognosis, on 07 November 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

I think not buying cheap chinese made crap would go a lot farther toward restoring our level of prosperity, rather than denying homosexuals the right to marry.

I'm also curious as to what "values" you think our founding fathers pulled from the bible. As far as I can recall, the founding fathers were trying to convince people to deny the divine right of kings, and the only other stuff from the bible that I recall involving government was when christ said "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's."

Aside from that, there's a whole bunch of stuff about when you can beat and/or kill your slaves, and how slaves should obey their masters, but we don't seem to have stuck to that. Is that what you are talking about?

What other values that are in the constitution (which isn't really about values at all) do you think are from the bible?

Here is the whole problem with america in a nutshell. the founding fathers used Bible princibles as a basis for the constitution. Now 200yrs. later everybodies understanding of the bible is being gay is bad, beating your slaves is okay and jesus said something about Caesar. When I say do alittle research it means read the constitution read the quotes from the founding fathers and where they came up with the ideals they put in the constitution which inturn will lead you to the Bible and the writings of Blackstone and Motesquieu. If you are unwilling to take the time to educate yourself on this subject you will never come to an understanding of what this countries original purpose was.
But be warned it will make you question the sanity of voting and paying taxes and a whole lot of crap our goverment does.