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Croatians attempt to supress minority rights


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#1    Spiral staircase

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 01:22 PM

Quote

Ethnic Serbs make up 34.8% of Vukovar's population, according to a 2011 census.


Croats use the Latin alphabet, while Serbs mostly use Cyrillic script, but they use a common language.

The government says Vukovar and other areas with large Serb minorities must have municipal signs in both scripts

http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-20899868

Quote

Respect for minorities' rights was a key condition for Croatia to join the European Union. Its entry into the bloc is set for July 1, following the ratification by all 27 EU member states.

http://rt.com/news/c...ar-protest-494/

Just look at how brutish they look. Jackbooted thugs should not be the ones to steer the course of democracy. Their uniforms are unnecessary as well and only serve as intimidation.

Croations themselves were also involved in war crimes, not just in the last conflict, but they sided with Nazis in WW2. (search term: Ustaše) Of course they will label their enemies as being Nazi-like.

Simon Wiesenthal had the following to say about them:

Quote

Director of the Jewish Documentation Centre in Vienna Simon Wiesenthal has accused Croats of crimes against Serbs and Jews during World War Two. "The ustasha committed horrendous crimes. No one knows exactly how many thousands of Serb civilians, innocent people, were killed by the ustasha at Jasenovac (death camp)," Wiesenthal told the Independent Sarajevo review Slobodna Bosna.


"Serbs saved Jews many times, Croats did not, i know that. We have always had sympathies for Serbs. They have written to me from the society of Serbian*Jewish friendship in New York, saying they could not understand why the whole world held only Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic responsible for crimes in Bosnia," Wiesenthal told the review.

http://www.hri.org/n...-22.yds.html#02

Of course just as when they were Nazi allies they persist on continuing the same mentality toward supressing minorities. They should find a way to coexist and heal, all sides have blood on their hands, to pretend they are innocent victims does not help in that process.

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#2    OverSword

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 02:17 PM

Will wait for Helen of Annoys opinion before judging this.


#3    Spiral staircase

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 02:33 PM

The common Croatian response would be that their enemies made Vukovar in the past seem like Stalingrad. They won't freely admit that ironically Croatians were at Stalingrad fighting with their German allies, helping bringing destruction to that city. Stalingrad was also a city they never lived in before, they were foreign invaders. Vukovar had similar numbers of Serbs and Croats.

Another typical response would be as follows:

Quote

"We want Vukovar be treated as a separate area where Cyrillic will never be introduced, just as the German anthem is never performed in Auschwitz," Tomislav Jozic, president of the committee for the defense of Vukovar, said.

http://www.setimes.c...3/04/20/blog-04

They would compare themselves to the victims of Auschwitz but they should be reminded in that conflict there were no Jews who also commited massacres against Germans or them, there were no gypsies, no leftists, no Jehova Witnesses, or homosexuals who were able to fight back and massacre anyone.

They compare themselves to the victims of Auschwitz who never had a fighting chance. To victims who never massacred or ethnically cleansed anyone while they in fact did both They themselves helped send people to the death camps in WW2 yet portray themselves as innocent victims. They even ran their own death camps. A total perversion of reality.

The Croatians also massacred Bosniak Muslims in the Balkan conflict and in WW2.

The Croatians massacred and ethnically cleansed others so have blood on their hand. How can they pretend to be victims all while still wanitng to harm others?

They now hide behind the West, the UN, America, and the Vatican, they have more money than their neighbors and use that money to influence opinion and the media to pretend to be victims when they were also perpetrators of hideous things. I won't even post pictures of the genocide they created.

But that is the past...forgiveness should come now. And right now they are again supressing a minority, again.

Edited by Leave Britney alone!, 23 April 2013 - 02:44 PM.


#4    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:26 PM

BTW, she here yet?  Well, I'm ready Posted Image
On second thoughts, it will all be so predictable that I will Posted Image

Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri, 23 April 2013 - 03:46 PM.


#5    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 06:28 PM

I'll be here in a minute :D

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#6    AsteroidX

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 06:42 PM

While were waiting on Helen of Annoy :ph34r: to set current events straight Id just like to add a historical point.

Quote

They won't freely admit that ironically Croatians were at Stalingrad fighting with their German allies

Hitler didnt give a rats ass who was fighting at the battle he pumped in every ethnic group available to fight on the Eastern front occupied or non. I believe there was a good bit of Finnish soldiers fighting for the Nazis as well. Not willingly although they were originally suckered into it with there own youth corp for homeland defense but when the time came he took those men to Russia. My Croatian history is shabby but I think this type of bait and switch to the front line was common place in Nazi occupied or peace for not being annihilated countries.


#7    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 07:39 PM

@ Britney

Thank you so much, dear Britney, for starting a thread about my beloved Vukovar. Or as we spelled it VukoWar, while JNA (Ex-Yugoslavian People's Army... Jesus Christ... what an irony) was throwing everything they had in stock at us. From small calibre to old Soviet earth-to-earth missiles.
Where were you then, when I was guessing the calibre and the direction by the sound of discharge, because my life depended on that and on the mercy of God?
Because there was no mercy on Serbian side.
"Miloševiću, šalji nam salate,
bit će mesa, klat ćemo Hrvate"
(Milosevic, send us salad, we'll take care of meat, we'll slaughter Croats)
That song was played on loudspeakers through demolished streets of Vukovar, while last civilians were murdered or taken to camps in Serbia.
Where were you then?
You or your teachers?
Where were you? Under impression it's not a big deal?  


It will undoubtedly please you to hear I’m writing this wearing jackboots and very old camouflage pants, because I find old uniforms both comfortable and comforting.


Anti-Semite Croats? You are either lying, either talking about things you don’t know much about.

Here
http://hr.wikipedia....'u_narodima

is the list of Croatian Righteous Among the Nations. 102 Croats were honored with this title by the state of Israel.
Shame on you, Britney, for trying to stain the memory of Croatian antifascists and good neighbours who risked their lives to save others.


The issue of part of Croatian society allying with Nazis in 1940s (I’m writing this in 2013!) is complex, meaning that it was not anti-Semitism that made Croats Nazis, but their opinion (later proven as wrong) that Croatian independence could be achieved through such alliance.

The WWII Partisan (antifascist) movement was communist but it was also Croatian in origin.
Study the WWII in ex-Yugoslavia before you continue this thread. Start with formation of first anti-fascist unit near Sisak, in Croatia, on June 22nd 1941, before US decided which side they’ll take, by the way. No offence to Americans, I like colourful figures of speech.

Now, Stalingrad.
Yes, there were Croats at Stalingrad, some with the SS, some with the Wehrmacht.

Explore this digest:
http://en.wikipedia....ent_(Wehrmacht)


Quote


Quoting Wiki: In late October 1944, a "Yugoslav Legion" numbering about 3000 men operated as part of the Red Army around Čačak during the Belgrade Offensive. This unit was formed in early 1944 partly from former members of the 369th (Croatian) Reinforced Infantry Regiment, and was commanded by the former Ustaše Lieutenant Colonel Marko Mesić assisted by Captain Milutin Perišić, a Serb. Both officers were praised by Soviet general Sergey Biryuzov.[1]
In the Summer of 1943 one hundred legionaries and 6 officers including Marko Mesic were transferred to Suzdalj and later to Krasnogorsk near Moscow, where they met with most of the surviving Croat soldiers. At Krasnogorsk, the Soviets formed a new unit that utilized Royal Yugoslav uniforms (At the time, Soviets did not recognize Tito's forces as a sovereign state). During early Soviet imprisonment, Col. Mesić may have been forced to appear in Soviet propaganda wearing a Royal Yugoslav Army uniform and Tito's flag to save the lives of his remaining men.


in order to get at least basic clue about the complexity of WWII.

It’s not black and white as you would like it to be. It’s mostly red, as blood of all European nations shed for no ****en good reason and I’ll be damned if I let you blacken the memory of my ancestors, regardless of the insignia they wore at the moment of their untimely death.


Was there Croatian-operated death camp? Yes. Jasenovac. Members of my mostly anti-fascist family died there too.
Was there Serb-operated death camp? Yes. Banjica, near Belgrade. Jews first, Roma next, then the anti-fascist too. Learn before you speak, Britney.


Present time.
Serbs loyal to their homeland Croatia fought and died together with Croats in our Homeland war, some of them were decorated by Croatian president for their heroic deeds. Others were blinded with Milosevic’s propaganda and fought to destroy Croatia rather than to let it become independent.

The name Milosevic’s officers chose for the initial attack on Croatia was “Spaljena zemlja” (Scorched land). If they aimed to protect Serbs only, from their own freaking country Croatia they decided should become part of Greater Serbia, they sure chose an interesting name for such operation.
Again, you should inform yourself before teaching others what happened in Croatia or in ex-Yu back in 1990s.

Bosnia is even more complicated and dirty story than Serbian aggression on Croatia, so I’ll go into details only if this thread continues. Let me say that no side was clean and each side had horrible loses. The siding was not exclusively on ethnic basis, what a revelation to you, I personally know people of all nations who experienced war on sides different than expected. But there's the difference between me and you, I know people, while you apparently know Croats.


Croats do not hide behind anyone, nor we ever did hide.
This is me, this is my homeland, my history, my ancestors, theirs and my sins and theirs and my accomplishments.

Judge me if that turns you on, but judge me based on all and true facts, do not cherry pick so you can make me some sort of Nazi boogeyman who doesn’t have anything else to do but to plot against Cyrillic.

See my signature?
That’s Glagolitic, fairly close to Cyrillic and the most croatomaniac Croats have Glagolitic tattoos, not Latin. Because that is our heritage and the heritage is sacred to us.
Cyrillic is part of Serbian heritage and children whose parents wish so are educated in Croatian schools by the program designed for Serbian ethnic needs, they are absolutely free to use their script, language, celebrate their holidays etc.
I would be the first to defend their rights, because I want the same rights for my minority in other countries.
What Serbs are not allowed are provocations, such as waving chetnik flags, playing bloodthirsty chetnik songs, shooting with weapons concealed after JNA retreat, desecrating graves and monuments etc.
No, chetniks were not anti-fascists, they were Serbian quisling forces, I will elaborate that for the umpteenth time if the tread continues.


Suddenly insisting on Cyrillic script in Vukovar is purely political stunt. I know many Serbs, some of them are my friends, and not one of them uses Cyrillic or has a problem with Latin. Many Serbs in mainland Serbia are more comfortable with the Latin, because of ever growing influence of English, which doesn’t really function in other scripts.
I know and can use Cyrillic and apart from being less practical than Latin at this moment (note we are communicating here using Latin script), I have absolutely no problems with it. Moreso, Cyrillic is part of Croatian heritage too, not to go into too microscopic details, but some of our old documents were written in it, or in the mixture of all three scripts (Cyr., Lat. and Glagolitic).
But that doesn’t fit in your agenda here.

Let’s play with open cards, huh?
I noticed and commented your poem against NATO but you didn’t respond. Yes, I still remember that. Because NATO saved my ass by bombing Milosevic. He did not want to give up destroying whole neighbourhood until war came home. As wars tend to do. As people who learn about history know.

Now you spilt so much bile against Croats.
What’s your problem, son, but really, tell me, what is your problem?
It can’t be just desire to be oh, so political, it must be something intimately that bothers you. Tell aunty Helen, maybe I can help you stop making such chauvinist spectacle of yourself.

Edited by Helen of Annoy, 23 April 2013 - 07:47 PM.

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#8    OverSword

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 08:50 PM

What’s your problem, son, but really, tell me, what is your problem?
It can’t be just desire to be oh, so political, it must be something intimately that bothers you. Tell aunty Helen, maybe I can help you stop making such chauvinist spectacle of yourself

I'll field that question Helen.  He's like me.  Soft, spoiled, and rich.  People like LBA and I can not possibly really sympathize with people that have actually lived in a war zone.  I don't care how many books I've read or movies I've watched or classes I've taken.  Can't really identify with it.

Also thought it was funny how he wants your people to "get over it" and then proceeds to bring up WWII.

After reading what you posted it seems to me like they may be trying to provoke a reaction with this sign BS and it worked perfectly.  To someone like me this is really a non-issue so I wish you and yours the best of luck working this out without bloodshed.


#9    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:08 PM

Thank you, OverSword.
The bloodshed part we are working out, despite “help” of guys who inspire various Britneys.
It’s the type of posts with very high trolling profile, sort of speaking, but sometimes I’m grateful for trolls, intentional or unintentional. They make me post things I normally wouldn’t bother the rest of the world with.




Unfortunately, I have to go now, because fortunately I have real life to live too :D but I will be back tomorrow, approximately at the same time and I will answer any question anyone might have about Croatia and the neighbourhood, our past or present.
I promise to be as morbidly honest as I was so far.
I also must warn people who didn’t read me before that I don’t do links (had to help Britney a little but that’s it), I don’t manipulate with photos, what I do is speak about my own experiences. Anyone truly interested can google for links or photos, I’m here as live specimen with rather good memory. Use me if you wish.


And what I forgot to say (and it was the most important thing to say... damn :D ):

Croatian government doesn’t even question the use of Cyrillic anywhere in Croatia, Vukovar included. Just like it doesn’t even question the use of Italian language in Istria or Czech flags at Czech minority festivals.

The timing and the prominence of Cyrillic script is the issue in Vukovar. People who survived Serbian camps are – naturally, if you are willing to think about it – not happy with possibility of symbolic return of the occupation.
They won’t mind Cyrillic, but they do mind pushing it into their faces.

Why it was so important to insist on overuse of Cyrillic, right in Vukovar and right now... who knows. Maybe bad economic situation makes Serbian politicians in Croatia, whose only platform is being Serbs, lose their voters so they had to reheat the old political stew again in order to keep themselves popular. Bread and games, if there’s no bread, make the games more intense... yeah, that’ll work...
Or maybe – I dare not to think that could be true – some people still think they can serbify Croatia. Nah, that couldn’t be... no one is that stupid. I mean, stubborn.  

All glory to all of my good neighbours, may they keep their heritage whole and alive, may we all notice the importance of patience and may we finally move into the future together.
Or as Nikola Tesla, great inventor and visionary, who happened to be a Croatian Serb, would say:
“I’m proud of my Serbian heritage and my Croatian homeland.”

But how would ghouls start new wars if people paid attention to what Tesla said? They need Britneys to protect minorities by stirring up the pot.

Get the eff out of my pot. We are perfectly able to stir it up ourselves :D

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#10    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 10:07 PM

ага! Posted Image


#11    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 10:11 PM

This was in Bosnia but still protagonists are same. Cyrillic users.
For people in Srebrenica and Vukovar:
Cyrillic=Terror and massacre.

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#12    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 10:22 PM

View Postthe L, on 23 April 2013 - 10:11 PM, said:

Cyrillic=Terror and massacre.
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Edited by Atentutankh-pasheri, 23 April 2013 - 10:26 PM.


#13    Spiral staircase

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 10:08 AM

View PostAsteroidX, on 23 April 2013 - 06:42 PM, said:

While were waiting on Helen of Annoy to set current events straight Id just like to add a historical point.

Hitler didnt give a rats ass who was fighting at the battle he pumped in every ethnic group available to fight on the Eastern front occupied or non. I believe there was a good bit of Finnish soldiers fighting for the Nazis as well. Not willingly although they were originally suckered into it with there own youth corp for homeland defense but when the time came he took those men to Russia. My Croatian history is shabby but I think this type of bait and switch to the front line was common place in Nazi occupied or peace for not being annihilated countries.

Hitler might have had that sentiment but you have not acknowledged the sentiment of the Croatians who were actually part of the campaign, some are smiling in pictures, others received medals after the war, and they consider their efforts there as heroic and valiant. They were willing.

Accusations of bait and switch are better reserved for those whose history in Croatia is self-admittedly "shabby" (your claim.)

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 23 April 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

@ Britney

Kako si, Helen.

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 23 April 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

That song was played on loudspeakers through demolished streets of Vukovar, while last civilians were murdered or taken to camps in Serbia.
Where were you then?
You or your teachers?
Where were you? Under impression it's not a big deal?  

I was not there, I know and have talked to people, face to face, in person, who participated in the conflict. I am also able to find other sources in addition to form my own opinion, a valid opinion, one similar to and shared to many others who were also there, and you yourself most likely have opinions on matters and places that you have only a tenuous connection to at best. Mine is based on a bit more in this instance, but thank you for your concern. It is no minor matter in my mind, then or now.

More importantly is that I grew up seeing the pictures of what the Ustasha and their Nazi friends did to Serbians. I saw the graves, I saw the bodies, and I will never forget them.

And even more important than that is I know you have seen more than pictures and have reasons for your view, I won't agree with your view, I favor healing and reconciliation, but I understand your view which is based on your experiences.

But this is not just about me or you, many have seen what you have and disagree with your view, true some are from the other side that you claim but your view is one narrative, as is theirs. This is about democracy and equal rights for minorities.

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 23 April 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

It will undoubtedly please you to hear I’m writing this wearing jackboots and very old camouflage pants, because I find old uniforms both comfortable and comforting.

You play the role well but times are changing, progress is visiting, and minority rights will be respected, even if a brutish bunch wants to stop democracy and rights for others and reserve the latter only for themselves.

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 23 April 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

Anti-Semite Croats? You are either lying, either talking about things you don’t know much about.

And I suppose you accuse Simon Wiesenthal of lying too? His words were quoted in the OP.

Efraim Zuroff is the, "chief Nazi-hunter of the Simon Wiesenthal Center and director of its Israel Office," and the following article is in his words, from last year...

Quote

Imagine for a minute that memorial masses were held in two major cities in Germany on the anniversary of the death of Adolf Hitler. Needless to say, such a ceremony would arouse fury, indignation, and widespread protests not only in Germany, but throughout the entire world. Last week, the local equivalent of such an event took place in Croatia, but instead of anger and demonstrations, not a single word of protest was heard from anywhere in the country.

I am referring to the December 28 memorial masses conducted in Zagreb and Split (and perhaps elsewhere as well) to mark the 51st anniversary of the death of Ante Pavelić, the head of state of the infamous Independent State of Croatia, created by the Nazis and their Italian allies in 1941. Following its establishment, rule was turned over to the local fascist movement, the Ustasha, headed by its Poglavnik (leader) Ante Pavelić.

During the entire course of its brief existence (1941- 1945), the Ustasha sought to rid the country (which consisted of the area of today’s Croatia plus most of Bosnia-Herzegovina) of all its minorities, as well as their local political opponents. In order to do so, they established a network of concentration camps all over the country, the largest and most notorious of which was Jasenovac, located on the banks of the Sava River, southeast of Zagreb. There, many tens of thousands of innocent civilians were murdered in a variety of brutal ways, which earned the camp the nickname of the “Auschwitz of the Balkans.”

http://www.wiesentha...65#.UXeiasrJJ_M

Is Efraim Zuroff lying or is someone else simply not admitting the truth so they can continue hating, celebrating their fascist history, and supressing minorties, and all that in our current era, not some shady past?

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 23 April 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

Here
http://hr.wikipedia....'u_narodima

is the list of Croatian Righteous Among the Nations. 102 Croats were honored with this title by the state of Israel.
Shame on you, Britney, for trying to stain the memory of Croatian antifascists and good neighbours who risked their lives to save others.

The only shame is when one would deny that most Croatians were on Hitler's side. The few who were not were brave and deserve recognition but what they do not deserve is to have their sacrifices minimized by pretending what they were up against did not exist: all butchers must come to terms with their pasts, all who support them must also come to terms, this applies to Croatian and Serb alike.

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 23 April 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

It’s not black and white as you would like it to be. It’s mostly red, as blood of all European nations shed for no ****en good reason and I’ll be damned if I let you blacken the memory of my ancestors, regardless of the insignia they wore at the moment of their untimely death.

The ones who wore fascist insignia will be blackened. The only question remains is why do Croats now, today, not all but many, wish to honor that?

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 23 April 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

Was there Croatian-operated death camp? Yes. Jasenovac. Members of my mostly anti-fascist family died there too.
Was there Serb-operated death camp? Yes. Banjica, near Belgrade. Jews first, Roma next, then the anti-fascist too. Learn before you speak, Britney.

No one is denying Serb actions in the Balkan wars but no one should try to diminish the fact that Croats played their own part.

Banjica was ran by Serbian State Guard, they were Nazi sympathizers, but the majority of Serbs opposed Nazis and were the victims of them and Croats.

On the other hand the majority of Croats sides with Nazis. The majority remain silent even today.

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 23 April 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

I would be the first to defend their rights, because I want the same rights for my minority in other countries.

I see no proof of your first claim here but undoubtedly we both most likely share similar sentiments over the latter.

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 23 April 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

What Serbs are not allowed are provocations, such as waving chetnik flags, playing bloodthirsty chetnik songs, shooting with weapons concealed after JNA retreat, desecrating graves and monuments etc.
No, chetniks were not anti-fascists, they were Serbian quisling forces, I will elaborate that for the umpteenth time if the tread continues.

Chetniks fought Nazis. Ustasha helped Nazis.

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 23 April 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

Suddenly insisting on Cyrillic script in Vukovar is purely political stunt.

Your view is severely distored. No one is "suddenly insisting". Minority rights are within both the Croatian constitution and the European Union laws. Democracy and equal rights is not a political stunt but to those who hate one or the either or both would claim it so.

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 23 April 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

I know many Serbs, some of them are my friends, and not one of them uses Cyrillic or has a problem with Latin. Many Serbs in mainland Serbia are more comfortable with the Latin, because of ever growing influence of English, which doesn’t really function in other scripts.

To my fellow Americans, if for some reason you happen to be reading, imagine the quote above revised to the following:

I know many African-Americans, some of them are my friends, and not one of them sits in the front of the bus or has a problem with staying in the back. Many African-Americans in the South are more comfortable with the back of the bus, because of ever growing influence of not wanting to rock the boat, which doesn’t really work anyways because we all like how things are now and they don't really need to change.

Helen, no, just no.

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 23 April 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

I know and can use Cyrillic and apart from being less practical than Latin at this moment (note we are communicating here using Latin script), I have absolutely no problems with it. Moreso, Cyrillic is part of Croatian heritage too, not to go into too microscopic details, but some of our old documents were written in it, or in the mixture of all three scripts (Cyr., Lat. and Glagolitic).
But that doesn’t fit in your agenda here.

The only agenda is disgust at suppression of minority rights in this world.

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 23 April 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

Let’s play with open cards, huh?
I noticed and commented your poem against NATO but you didn’t respond. Yes, I still remember that. Because NATO saved my ass by bombing Milosevic. He did not want to give up destroying whole neighbourhood until war came home. As wars tend to do. As people who learn about history know.

What?

My poem, entitled "Nato, please intervene" was written to commemorate the second annivesary of Nato intervention in Libya, something I supported, but also written after feeling disgusted and sick (I know I should probably be as macho and tough as you but I was not made that way) at what is going on in Syria. I put myself in Syrian shoes and it is a prayer for Nato intervention there.

You completely misunderstood that piece.

It is true I am critical of how Western peacekeepers stood back and did nothing as Croats ethnically cleansed Serbs from the Krajina but I am a huge fan of nuance and my criticism there does not extend to other peacekeeping operations.

I am sorry if you didn't like that poem, not many did as only you commented, thanks, but I don't think you understood it at all.

Edited by Leave Britney alone!, 24 April 2013 - 10:33 AM.


#14    Spiral staircase

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 10:17 AM

Due to the quote limit this had to broken up into another post.

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 23 April 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

Now you spilt so much bile against Croats.What’s your problem, son, but really, tell me, what is your problem?
It can’t be just desire to be oh, so political, it must be something intimately that bothers you. Tell aunty Helen, maybe I can help you stop making such chauvinist spectacle of yourself."

My problem is suppression of minority rights. Chauvinism does not belong in my court.

Your suspicion that my reason for posting could be anything else than what is it only proves you do not care about suppression of minority rights. I see no proof you do, you have not advocated for them, you portray democracy and minority rights as a "political stunt" instead.

View PostOverSword, on 23 April 2013 - 08:50 PM, said:

"I'll field that question Helen.  He's like me.  Soft, spoiled, and rich.  People like LBA and I can not possibly really sympathize with people that have actually lived in a war zone.  I don't care how many books I've read or movies I've watched or classes I've taken.  Can't really identify with it.

Also thought it was funny how he wants your people to "get over it" and then proceeds to bring up WWII.

After reading what you posted it seems to me like they may be trying to provoke a reaction with this sign BS and it worked perfectly.  To someone like me this is really a non-issue so I wish you and yours the best of luck working this out without bloodshed."

You initially assume much in your first paragraph.

The ultra-fascist singer Thompson who glorifies the Ustasha, Thompson who sang at the protest against Cyrllic earlier this month, also brings up WWII but in a way to praise the fascist ancestors of his, as do his fans, look them up, some very young, they wear the fascist symbols to go to his concerts, but in all honesty the situation today has much to do with WWII.

If this is a non-issue to you I understand, it isn't to me, I am familiar with the region, its inhabitants, and my position is not based or swayed or informed solely through one person I am friendly with on a forum.

This might be your reason to label democracy and minority rights as simply provoking, "a reaction with this sign BS," but at least Helen has her own reasons based in something a lot deeper for her opinion.

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 23 April 2013 - 09:08 PM, said:

Helen said - "Thank you, OverSword.
The bloodshed part we are working out, despite “help” of guys who inspire various Britneys."

Working it out by showing up to protest against minority rights while dressed up in intimidating militia outfits?

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 23 April 2013 - 09:08 PM, said:

It’s the type of posts with very high trolling profile, sort of speaking, but sometimes I’m grateful for trolls, intentional or unintentional. They make me post things I normally wouldn’t bother the rest of the world with.

We can discuss the issues, maybe you don't want to, maybe you just want to tell me your narrative without listening to mine? Labelling my concerns for this region, yes your region, as trolling, is simply innaccurate and I have yet to say anything about you in such a manner. That is ad hominem and won't work in minimizing the seriousness of this issue in Vukovar.

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 23 April 2013 - 09:08 PM, said:

Croatian government doesn’t even question the use of Cyrillic anywhere in Croatia, Vukovar included. Just like it doesn’t even question the use of Italian language in Istria or Czech flags at Czech minority festivals.

Correct the Croatian constituon calls for these minority rights to be honored. Correct that ethnic-Italian minority has these same rights.

It is those who hate and have no love for the rule of law who are at issue here. The Croatian government and the EU still have to answer to the charge of allowing fascism to resurface. It needs to be stamped out. We all know the history going back the Battle of Kosovo in 1389. We all know how Serbs have always been attacked and controlled by greater powers, time and again, Turks, Holy Roman Empire, Ottomon empire, Austro-Hungary, Nazi Germany, and even the UN, but in the end they always regain their freedom. (Yes, I know some of those are the same players with different names).

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 23 April 2013 - 09:08 PM, said:

The timing and the prominence of Cyrillic script is the issue in Vukovar. People who survived Serbian camps are – naturally, if you are willing to think about it – not happy with possibility of symbolic return of the occupation.
They won’t mind Cyrillic, but they do mind pushing it into their faces.

Your continual distortion of democracy and equal rights completely solidifies your true view.

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 23 April 2013 - 09:08 PM, said:

Why it was so important to insist on overuse of Cyrillic, right in Vukovar and right now... who knows. Maybe bad economic situation makes Serbian politicians in Croatia, whose only platform is being Serbs, lose their voters so they had to reheat the old political stew again in order to keep themselves popular. Bread and games, if there’s no bread, make the games more intense... yeah, that’ll work...
Or maybe – I dare not to think that could be true – some people still think they can serbify Croatia. Nah, that couldn’t be... no one is that stupid. I mean, stubborn.

No need for conspiracy theories. Allowing minority rights and the use of their language on signs is simply in your constitution and part of the terms of conditions of joining the EU and following their charters.



Aunty Helen, I know you have a good heart in other matters, I know you don't agree with me in this matter, peace to you, you lovely woman, I only wish I had your strengths, I do not wish to sacrifice my sensitivies and who I really am just to make things easier for me, but if I was as strong as you maybe the world would be easier for me, but most of all I wish you peace to your heart, for all you have seen and experienced, but just for being a fellow human being, and I hope you wish me the same. Be good, visit me more often (in writers and artists section).

Edited by Leave Britney alone!, 24 April 2013 - 10:29 AM.


#15    bmk1245

bmk1245

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 10:32 AM

I wonder, does Vojevodina have municipal signs on Hungarian?

Seriously LBa, whats your beef with Croats? You can take any minor non-issue anywhere (in every country), blow it out of proportions, and scream: Suppression! (Beloved tactics of Russia against Baltic states, for example).

Arguing with fool is like playing chess with pigeon: he will scatter pieces, peck King's crown, crap on bishop, and fly away bragging how he won the game... (heard once, author unknown).
Zhoom! What was that? That was your life, Mate! Oh, that was quick. Do I get another? Sorry, Mate. That's your lot. Basil Fawlty (John Cleese).




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