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'Taliban is ready to talk peace'

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#16    Frank Merton

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 06:55 AM

View PostColonel Rhuairidh, on 19 June 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

So how many times do the leadership have to be killed? It's like Al Qaeda's #2, who is killed by a Drone every couple of weeks,
I dunno, but those at the top early on are gone.  Lower down types who have now moved up are not the same people and may be less competent or less determined or less fanatical.


#17    Admiral Rhubarb

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 07:07 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 19 June 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

I dunno, but those at the top early on are gone.  Lower down types who have now moved up are not the same people and may be less competent or less determined or less fanatical.
it'sd always the trouble with these kind of loose organisations, though, isn't it, like with Al Q, that kiling the leadership isn't the same as deposing the leader of a country; the government won't collapse as a result, because there is no government. There's never any shortage of people ready to take up the flag (as, perhaps, the Viet Cong demonstrated). And even if the new people rising to positions of power int he taliban may not be as competent or fanatical, well, that would hardly seem to be too much of a problem considering how competent and trustworthy the Afghan Security Forces and the puppet- er, democratic Afghan govt. that the US put in place are.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

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#18    RavenHawk

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 04:06 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 19 June 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

I hope you are wrong.  Remember that the present Taliban has had its leadership killed several times and that the senior leadership is now thin on the ground.
In this case, hope breeds eternal misery.  What we are fighting is an ideology, an ideology that exists beyond the borders of Afghanistan.  It is an ideology akin to a virus in the way it spreads.  Good leadership is not necessary.  A good leader will make it more deadly but killing off people doesnít kill the mindset.  The only way to change that ideology is to make it so sour in the pit of oneís stomach that they seek a new ideology.  

Now how do you do that?  You have to completely destroy the body.  Thatís not necessarily just killing people.  Itís destroying their family and their way of life utterly.  Make it so ugly to them that they give up.  Now at first, they will be indignant and stubborn and will fight back.  But this is the point in which we would have to redouble our efforts and when we think it canít get any uglier, push it over the edge.  

In recent memory that is what Hitler failed to do to the British and Russians, but how we succeeded with the Germans and Japanese.  The world has the resources to accomplish this with really minimal effort but is the civilian stomach and political will there?  I doubt it.  We already know that the moderates that live under this ideology canít or wonít reform from within so if the world does not want to live with this threat any longer, we need to take care of business on our own.  How sour are our stomachs under this threat?  How tired are we of it?  If we do nothing, it *WILL* only get worse.

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#19    Zaphod222

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 05:04 PM

Basically, the US government is admitting defeat. Fine! They should never have gotten involved in this idiot "nation building" adventure in Afghanistan in the first place.

But why did they have to waste these enormous amounts of funds and so many lives for this nonsensical mission?
Obama and the rest of the dimwits who supported this should be sent packing.

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#20    Zaphod222

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 05:07 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 19 June 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

In this case, hope breeds eternal misery.  What we are fighting is an ideology, an ideology that exists beyond the borders of Afghanistan.  It is an ideology akin to a virus in the way it spreads.  Good leadership is not necessary.  A good leader will make it more deadly but killing off people doesn't kill the mindset.  The only way to change that ideology is to make it so sour in the pit of one's stomach that they seek a new ideology.  

Now how do you do that?  You have to completely destroy the body.  That's not necessarily just killing people.  It's destroying their family and their way of life utterly.  Make it so ugly to them that they give up.  Now at first, they will be indignant and stubborn and will fight back.  But this is the point in which we would have to redouble our efforts and when we think it can't get any uglier, push it over the edge.

I agree that we are fighting an ideology. I disagree that the solution is to "destroy their family and their way of life". The solution is to openly address and take on the ideology of political islam.

But our politicians and media have not the will to do it and are shackled by Political Correctness. So yes, it WILL get worse. Much worse.

Edited by Zaphod222, 19 June 2013 - 05:08 PM.

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#21    Yamato

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 06:13 PM

Ya can't kill them all!  The "trouble" with these loose organizations.  Like some of us haven't been saying that for the past 11 years.

"Links to Al Qaeda" are talked about constantly in the media and nobody knows what that means.   We've been told for 11 years that the Taliban has those links, what are we doing negotiating?   According to doctrine and the parrot on TV, we don't negotiate with terrorists.  But when the headline is that the enemy is ready to negotiate we're doing what we say we don't do, and on their timetable.

Of course we're admitting defeat.   The only way the racket ends, I've said this 100 times, is when someone in Washington gets the political will up to end the war.   Afghans aren't leaving.  They're already home, they have nowhere to go.  They'll stay until we leave, and after we do, they'll go back to what they do without us sticking our noses in their business.   This was obvious 10 years ago, it's just as obvious now.   It's so obvious it shouldn't need to be said; I'm saying it still, shockingly, for the benefit of others.   The difference in ending the war now is, we're hundreds of billions of dollars in the hole to China, and we're now subsidizing China's Iraqi oil.  

Borrowing money from China to spread democracy in the Middle East so China can reap the benefits?   If I was China, I'd call that an investment.  Investment using American labor, doing all the hard work and paying all the interest.  When interest rates go from zero percent to five, six, seven, ten and whatever percent, and the cost of all this ponzi scheme borrowing increases enormously, even some democrats and republicans are going to start blathering hollow words about this money-waste and it'll be just as if they couldn't see it coming for years already.

So congratulations, US taxpaying dupes!  The bipartisan republicans and democrats have indoctrinated you into sheep quite well.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#22    RavenHawk

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 06:43 PM

View PostZaphod222, on 19 June 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

I agree that we are fighting an ideology. I disagree that the solution is to "destroy their family and their way of life". The solution is to openly address and take on the ideology of political islam.
And how are you going to openly address the ideology of Islam?

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#23    Spiral staircase

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 06:50 PM

View PostBlack Red Devil, on 19 June 2013 - 05:55 AM, said:

The MB gets financial aid and Al Queda gets weapons so I suppose they feel like they're being excluded from the party.

We have already funded the Taliban. We paid so they would keep the roads clear so we can get our shipments to our troops. We also payed them not to grow opium. There have been other ways our funding has found its way to them as well.

http://www.huffingto..._b_1556454.html

http://www.cato.org/...-funded-taliban

http://www.thenation...n#axzz2WgoBTkVp

Anyways, talking and communication is always worth it.


#24    Black Red Devil

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 07:08 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 19 June 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

And how are you going to openly address the ideology of Islam?

Through education.  You can't modernise a backward culture through force which is basically what our western policies have been doing in Afghanistan and Iraq in the last dozen years.
There are most likely other interests involved (oil, gas, strategic positioning...) that may have placed our troops there but if you or anyone truly believes we went there to time warp the Afghans into the new millennium then I'm afraid we've been doing it the wrong way.

Edited by Black Red Devil, 19 June 2013 - 07:14 PM.

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#25    Black Red Devil

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 07:13 PM

View PostThe world needs you, on 19 June 2013 - 06:50 PM, said:

We have already funded the Taliban. We paid so they would keep the roads clear so we can get our shipments to our troops. We also payed them not to grow opium. There have been other ways our funding has found its way to them as well.

http://www.huffingto..._b_1556454.html

http://www.cato.org/...-funded-taliban

http://www.thenation...n#axzz2WgoBTkVp

Anyways, talking and communication is always worth it.

Yeah, I knew about the funding in the past but wasn't aware they were still getting conned.  Thanks for the info.

We are each our own devil, and we make this world our hell

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#26    RavenHawk

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 07:37 PM

View PostBlack Red Devil, on 19 June 2013 - 07:08 PM, said:

Through education.  You can't modernise a backward culture through force which is basically what our western policies have been doing in Afghanistan and Iraq in the last dozen years.
There are most likely other interests involved (oil, gas, strategic positioning...) that may have placed our troops there but if you or anyone truly believes we went there to time warp the Afghans into the new millennium then I'm afraid we've been doing it the wrong way.
And you think that education is the magic bullet?  I donít think so.  What you need is opportunity for the youth to excel.  With opportunity comes education.  Education does nothing by itself.  But given that, they are still ruled by Islam.  There is no guarantee that education replaces ideology.

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#27    Yamato

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Posted 19 June 2013 - 09:06 PM

Beware anyone who comes to you and says "there is no guarantee" as a rationale for disagreement.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#28    Black Red Devil

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 03:18 AM

View PostRavenHawk, on 19 June 2013 - 07:37 PM, said:

And you think that education is the magic bullet?  I don't think so.  What you need is opportunity for the youth to excel.  With opportunity comes education.  Education does nothing by itself.  But given that, they are still ruled by Islam.  There is no guarantee that education replaces ideology.

How do they create these opportunities if they're indoctrinated from an early age into believing ONLY the word from the Quran and their Prophet Mohammed's lessons from 1400 years ago?  I highly doubt their Islamic clerics are going to or allow them to.  And if by chance there was a brilliant mind wanting to start an educational program that didn't include Islam and included women, where do you think he would end up?

These people need to be taught there is more in life than just Islam.  Opportunity before education?  I don't think so.

Edited by Black Red Devil, 20 June 2013 - 03:22 AM.

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#29    Zaphod222

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 04:39 AM

So Obama capitulates. Fine! The US should never have gotten into this futile nation-building program in Afghanistan in the first place.
It is only a shame for the huge amounts of funds and the thousands of lifes which have been sacrificed for this idiotic project.

For this, Obama owes an apology to the public. And he should stop putting lipstick on this pig by calling the surrender a success. That means adding insult to injury.

A surrender is a surrender, period.

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#30    Spiral staircase

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 07:12 AM

A surrender is a surrender in zero-sum games where hard power is appreciated more than the soft power of cooperation.

In compromise and negotiation where everyone gets some of what they want but not everything then terms such as surrender becoming meaningless because it becomes a win-win game where maximizing the well-being of both sides is favored over total domination-destruction paradigms.

Invading another country with such massive force over bombings, creating more casualties there than we ever had here, is asymmetrical warfare. The responsibility of administrating a whole country after a Pyrrhic victory does not really sound like winning to me which is what others probably had in mind when they speak of no surrender.






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