42 replies to this topic

[None of the above]

Jackofalltrades, on 16 October 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

I cannot see how just using normal everyday weapon's would cause such a thing to happen...

Make's me wonder if there was any chemical's used that we do not know of or are not being told about...

The only other time I have heard of such thing's like in the OP is from the Vietnam war and the use of Agent Orange...

http://en.wikipedia....the_Vietnam_War

I think it's a perfect storm of us simply not giving a toss about these people.
Lead, DU, phospherous, mercury and as 'A.T' points out, the other toxins released by our use of overwhelming misplaced force on the country's infrastructure.

And we are supposed to swallow some carp about this being a war of liberation.
What a joke.

[and then]

Atlantia, on 16 October 2012 - 05:23 PM, said:

50% of babies concieved since the invasion.
Have you got kids?
The prospect of alongside everything else, and them having to start out their life in that chaotic situation, you have a coin flips chance of them not even being born healthy.

It's completely appalling. Another example of our complete failure in our duty of care to these people.

Liberation!

I refer you to my first post in this thread (#4).  My comment was solely about the use of DU.  There is a mythology out there that it is somehow radioactive to a point of causing such problems and there just is no data to back it up.  Lead and mercury are just as likely candidates and I have already said that the war was of little value and ill conceived.  On the other hand I suspect that if you ask the average Iraqi today would they rather be living in the good old days under uncle Saddam the answer would be most a resounding NO!  But no one asks that question, do they?

[None of the above]

and then, on 16 October 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

I refer you to my first post in this thread (#4).  My comment was solely about the use of DU.  There is a mythology out there that it is somehow radioactive to a point of causing such problems and there just is no data to back it up.  Lead and mercury are just as likely candidates and I have already said that the war was of little value and ill conceived.  On the other hand I suspect that if you ask the average Iraqi today would they rather be living in the good old days under uncle Saddam the answer would be most a resounding NO!  But no one asks that question, do they?

I wasn't having a go. I actually agree that even if D.U is ONLY as bad as lead or mercury, it's a truly awful substance.

Thing about asking the average Iraqi today is that we can't of course ask all of the 'victims of the Liberation'.
Even if you start with the belief that we were doing the 'right thing' in Invading Iraq, we made a total FUBAR of it and untold thousands of innocents have paid the price and many more will continue to do so into the future it seems.

[and then]

Atlantia, on 16 October 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

I wasn't having a go. I actually agree that even if D.U is ONLY as bad as lead or mercury, it's a truly awful substance.

Thing about asking the average Iraqi today is that we can't of course ask all of the 'victims of the Liberation'.
Even if you start with the belief that we were doing the 'right thing' in Invading Iraq, we made a total FUBAR of it and untold thousands of innocents have paid the price and many more will continue to do so into the future it seems.

  I agree.  And I truly think we should do what we can to help with the healthcare issues in the aftermath IF it can be accomplished instead of the money just going to corrupt politicians.  We spent BILLIONS ostensibly for rebuilding infrastructure and as of US troops exiting the country the Iraqis still did not have reliable electric power generation.  It's ridiculous.

Edited by and then, 16 October 2012 - 06:12 PM.

[and then]

Atlantia, on 15 October 2012 - 07:58 PM, said:

Remember 'Shock and awe'?
We bombarded civilian cities to break the will of the Iraqi forces. That's a choice to use that tactic.
We were far less concerned about Iraqi civilian deaths than we were about coalition casualties and the gigantic and continuing civillian death toll bears that out.

Most will see the connection here but those responsible will never be held to account.

You are implying that civilians were intentionally targeted and that is false.  Shock and awe was meant to demoralize to be sure but it was targeted against legitimate military targets.

[None of the above]

and then, on 16 October 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

You are implying that civilians were intentionally targeted and that is false.  Shock and awe was meant to demoralize to be sure but it was targeted against legitimate military targets.

No, I'm saying "We bombarded civilian cities to break the will of the Iraqi forces."
Now whether you believe that these attacks were justified is another thing.
But targetting the mechanisms of the state the infrastructure, transport routes etc IS putting civilians deliberately in harms way.
I don't think that's acceptable, especially in a war of 'liberation' that WE started and especially as an 'opening tactic'.
I would also suggest that this tactic with it's nightime bombings and psychological warfare element was designed to destabilise the 'society' and cause pandemonium among the civillian populace to further put the regime on the back foot.
I don't see these 'tactics' as legitimate.

Edited by Atlantia, 18 October 2012 - 02:23 PM.

[lightly]

and then, on 16 October 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

You are implying that civilians were intentionally targeted and that is false.  Shock and awe was meant to demoralize to be sure but it was targeted against legitimate military targets.

   Infrastructure, like water  sources/lines ,  electrical grid , roads ..  are not used solely by the military and are not entirely 'military targets".    SHOCK AND AWE was unleashed to create a LARGER and more ticked off enemy ,,, in the entire region.   You need a good excuse for being there.

[Darkwind]

Soo... People think you're going to have a war and not kill civilians and damage the environment for years to come.  When you blow things up all kinds of toxins go into the air, some from bombs, some from buildings, some from the ground.  This is what happens in war.  We need to quit the wars. Every time I see this commercial, I think wonderful you want us in another war?!!  It really, really sets me off.  I am glad my son was here to stop me from throwing the remote at the TV the first time I saw it.

[and then]

Darkwind, on 20 October 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

Soo... People think you're going to have a war and not kill civilians and damage the environment for years to come.  When you blow things up all kinds of toxins go into the air, some from bombs, some from buildings, some from the ground.  This is what happens in war.  We need to quit the wars. Every time I see this commercial, I think wonderful you want us in another war?!!  It really, really sets me off.  I am glad my son was here to stop me from throwing the remote at the TV the first time I saw it.

When do you think a war would be justified?  Do you actually believe that people want war instead of peace?  Or is it just this particular "aggression" that bothers you so much?  Serious questions - not trying to bait you.

[and then]

lightly, on 20 October 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

   Infrastructure, like water  sources/lines ,  electrical grid , roads ..  are not used solely by the military and are not entirely 'military targets". SHOCK AND AWE was unleashed to create a LARGER and more ticked off enemy ,,, in the entire region.   You need a good excuse for being there.

This the intention, in your view?  To what purpose?  I do not agree with Iraq but I still don't believe it was some sort of grand MIC conspiracy either.

[Darkwind]

and then, on 20 October 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

When do you think a war would be justified?  Do you actually believe that people want war instead of peace?  Or is it just this particular "aggression" that bothers you so much?  Serious questions - not trying to bait you.

The first time we went into Iraq was necessary, the second time NO.  There was no justification for going in there.  IMO, there comes a point when the people of a country needs to take care of their own despot. Look at what the Romanians did.   Afghanistan, we should have went in and carpet bombed the training camps and got out. Then went after Bin Laden as a criminal.  I don't think these people want what we are offering, they don't seem to want freedom. They don't seem to understand it means to be tolerant of another's religion or way of life. A theocracy is just another form of totalitarianism. True secularism, makes religion irrelevant, believe what you want, run your church or whatever how you want, but don't run the state by it,  or you're going to take someones rights away.   It is not the job of the west to police the world, It can't be done.  It is just a waste of life and resources.

There are people out there who want war, why, they make big bucks selling guns, bombs, planes and tanks. It is all about money and power. That includes the Taliban, Israeli theocracy, Iranian theocracy, Haliburton and the rest of them.  "Just cooperate criminals playing with tanks."  The rest of us just want food, home and family.



Read what the Dalai Lama has to say about war. I agree with most of it.
http://www.dalailama...-reality-of-war

Edited by Darkwind, 20 October 2012 - 09:33 PM.

[and then]

Darkwind, on 20 October 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

The first time we went into Iraq was necessary, the second time NO.  There was no justification for going in there.  IMO, there comes a point when the people of a country needs to take care of their own despot. Look at what the Romanians did.   Afghanistan, we should have went in and carpet bombed the training camps and got out. Then went after Bin Laden as a criminal.  I don't think these people want what we are offering, they don't seem to want freedom. They don't seem to understand it means to be tolerant of another's religion or way of life. A theocracy is just another form of totalitarianism. True secularism, makes religion irrelevant, believe what you want, run your church or whatever how you want, but don't run the state by it,  or you're going to take someones rights away.   It is not the job of the west to police the world, It can't be done.  It is just a waste of life and resources.

There are people out there who want war, why, they make big bucks selling guns, bombs, planes and tanks. It is all about money and power. That includes the Taliban, Israeli theocracy, Iranian theocracy, Haliburton and the rest of them.  "Just cooperate criminals playing with tanks."  The rest of us just want food, home and family.



Read what the Dalai Lama has to say about war. I agree with most of it.
http://www.dalailama...-reality-of-war

I can agree with everything you say with the caveat that I believe wars are necessary when a country like Iran for instance, have stated a goal of destabilizing and subjugating another group of people.  When someone says openly that they want to kill you then I think a person or nation have a right to act in their own interests.  It's not always possible to just take the first blow and hope you have the strength to come back and win the fight.  Put another way - I'm in not good health and I walk daily to help with that.  If some thug comes up and says he's going to beat me down because he wants my iPod or doesn't like my face then I will dramatically lower his blood pressure before I accept his plan.

[Darkwind]

and then, on 20 October 2012 - 10:44 PM, said:

I can agree with everything you say with the caveat that I believe wars are necessary when a country like Iran for instance, have stated a goal of destabilizing and subjugating another group of people.  When someone says openly that they want to kill you then I think a person or nation have a right to act in their own interests.  It's not always possible to just take the first blow and hope you have the strength to come back and win the fight.  Put another way - I'm in not good health and I walk daily to help with that.  If some thug comes up and says he's going to beat me down because he wants my iPod or doesn't like my face then I will dramatically lower his blood pressure before I accept his plan.

Israel has the bomb, so Iran wants one too, so what is new? They can bomb each other till kingdom come for all I care.  I don't what  our young men and women wasted in their conflict.   These people been fighting for thousands of years. I don't think they are ever going to stop.   The UN gave the European Jews a homeland, great, trouble was there where already people living there. The Palestinians want their country back, can you blame them? I guess nobody learned anything from what happen to the Native peoples of the Americas, Australia and the numerous other places where people where push out by colonialism.  Now they all got the local Abrahamic religions taking advantage of the situation hoping they can come out on top with their brand of totalitarianism. They're all stupid, the Middle East is one of the greatest tourist traps in all the world and they are throwing it away to fight over which Flying Spaghetti Monster is best, sausage or meatball.

Edited by Darkwind, 21 October 2012 - 01:47 AM.

[and then]

Darkwind, on 21 October 2012 - 01:43 AM, said:

Israel has the bomb, so Iran wants one too, so what is new? They can bomb each other till kingdom come for all I care.  I don't what  our young men and women wasted in their conflict.   These people been fighting for thousands of years. I don't think they are ever going to stop.   The UN gave the European Jews a homeland, great, trouble was there where already people living there. The Palestinians want their country back, can you blame them? I guess nobody learned anything from what happen to the Native peoples of the Americas, Australia and the numerous other places where people where push out by colonialism.  Now they all got the local Abrahamic religions taking advantage of the situation hoping they can come out on top with their brand of totalitarianism. They're all stupid, the Middle East is one of the greatest tourist traps in all the world and they are throwing it away to fight over which Flying Spaghetti Monster is best, sausage or meatball.

This flying spaghetti monster comes with a world wide nuclear conflagration regardless of whether you think it's crazy or not.

[Cybele]

I've never heard of lead or mercury being teratogenic, though I knew lead exposure can cause intellectual impairment in young children. I wonder what other metals were involved.