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#196    Sean93

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 07:01 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 02 January 2013 - 06:26 PM, said:

My word, that itself is a narrow minded and hateful idea.. It reeks of hate and discrimination towards Atheists as a whole..

I'm confused by this.

You don't think I mean that coming from me do you? Did you read my full post? I was referring to Jor-El's thinking that if Religion/ the God Idea dies and Atheism rises, that the world will become pillaged by hate and lawlessness...something I disagree with, over the years it's been quite the opposite in fact.

"Regarding life, the wisest men of all ages have judged it alike: It is worthless."

"Be peaceful, be courteous, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery."

#197    Jor-el

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 07:15 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 02 January 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

I have read the source as to where you ( I believe  you may have )  copied and pasted your previous info on -> http://tektonics.org...peleox.html I could be wrong, but it looks to me that was the source you were using.. as you had not posted the link, not that it matters I could find it easy enough... From reading all though that entire source, I figured that there is no evidence that this was the first and ONLY place that line came from ..He doesn't mention the word myth, but uses fable instead..

The reason why he doesn't mention the word myth, but fable, is because that is the word that is translated from the Latin "fabula", which means  "story, play, narrative, account, tale," literally "that which is told".

It is also related to the word fabulous in the sense of "incredible" and "fantastic".

Now the point is that modern day quoters have essentially substituted the word fable for "myth". It doesn't change a thing, the word myth comes from the Latin "mythus" and the greek "mythos", which means  "speech, thought, story, rumour, anything delivered by word of mouth," of unknown origin.

What is important is that neither word had the meaning of "invention", "lie", "deception", as it is applied today. The modern understanding of the word did not exist until 1840.

The site you used was one of a dozen I went to. I have yet to find a single historical source for the quote besides a satirical play by John Bale. Be so kind as to give us one if you can find it.

Edited by Jor-el, 02 January 2013 - 07:18 PM.

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"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#198    Jor-el

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 07:23 PM

View PostSean93, on 02 January 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

I will blame humans. It's always been human's, using god as a cover-up for their killings and saying "god does it, so can I, god told me to". I can't blame god for deeds of humans because the way I see it, he was never there but his name was used for fearmongering and thus terrible actions were committed and inadvertently were allowed.

God is alive and well in the minds of those who believe in him, for those who do not, he is dead and at the end of the day it's all personal belief and no one will change that no matter how loud they shout for their cause be it for or against God.

Oh and what cover up do unbelievers use, for their killings... let me guess, psychopathic schizophrenia? Or temporary insanity? Or a tough childhhod.... take your pick...

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"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#199    squidboy

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 07:27 PM

View PostSean93, on 02 January 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

I will blame humans. It's always been human's, using god as a cover-up for their killings and saying "god does it, so can I, god told me to". I can't blame god for deeds of humans because the way I see it, he was never there but his name was used for fearmongering and thus terrible actions were committed and inadvertently were allowed.

God is alive and well in the minds of those who believe in him, for those who do not, he is dead and at the end of the day it's all personal belief and no one will change that no matter how loud they shout for their cause be it for or against God.

I don't believe in god, but i lets just assume he is real... isn't god supposed to be omniscient? If god is omniscient, then he knows which choices a person will make during his life, so that means there is no free will, so then it must be gods fault. If there is free will, then god can not know the future, and then he isnt omniscient, and then he isnt god...


#200    Sean93

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 07:36 PM

View PostJor-el, on 02 January 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:


Oh and what cover up do unbelievers use, for their killings... let me guess, psychopathic schizophrenia? Or temporary insanity? Or a tough childhhod.... take your pick...

You seem to be going a bit loopy now, are you all right?

"Regarding life, the wisest men of all ages have judged it alike: It is worthless."

"Be peaceful, be courteous, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery."

#201    Sean93

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 07:38 PM

View Postsquidboy, on 02 January 2013 - 07:27 PM, said:

I don't believe in god, but i lets just assume he is real... isn't god supposed to be omniscient? If god is omniscient, then he knows which choices a person will make during his life, so that means there is no free will, so then it must be gods fault. If there is free will, then god can not know the future, and then he isnt omniscient, and then he isnt god...

Perhaps you've read Epicurus?

Posted Image

Your post reminded me of this quote.

Edited by Sean93, 02 January 2013 - 07:38 PM.

"Regarding life, the wisest men of all ages have judged it alike: It is worthless."

"Be peaceful, be courteous, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery."

#202    Jor-el

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 07:42 PM

View PostSean93, on 02 January 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

They aren't my Objective Moral Values, they are yours. Perhaps you got that part mixed up. Objective means they are absolute and handed down by God. I'm not referring to human moral values because as you have said and as I have said in previous posts, they can and will continue to change but Objective Moral Values never change and you should know that being a believer.

As for needing the fear of God to be good, thank you for saying that, it's all I needed to hear. I'll refer you to Einstein now.
Posted Image

The problem with that is ignorance of what it means to "fear God"... like many other words over time, the meaning has been somewhat diluted and changed. It does not merely mean "to be afraid of". It means to be in awe of, to respect with great reverence...

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"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#203    Sean93

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 07:45 PM

View PostJor-el, on 02 January 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

The problem with that is ignorance of what it means to "fear God"... like many other words over time, the meaning has been somewhat diluted and changed. It does not merely mean "to be afraid of". It means to be in awe of, to respect with great reverence...

Better to just say that then instead of using inappropriate words. But whatever, I never wrote the bible.

"Regarding life, the wisest men of all ages have judged it alike: It is worthless."

"Be peaceful, be courteous, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery."

#204    Jor-el

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 07:49 PM

View PostSean93, on 02 January 2013 - 07:36 PM, said:

You seem to be going a bit loopy now, are you all right?

No, I'm quite sane.... but since you need it explained, everybody who kills has a justification for it, it doesn't matter what it is, do not seperate believers from unbelievers on that fact. You put believers in a special box and label them, but killing was not done only by religious people, it has been done by every kind of person, believers, atheists, unbelievers, and everything inbetween. You say religion is particularly vile because of it, I'm saying, sure... just as much as the rest of humanity.

The numbers are so huge on both sides that they can't even be counted...

Edited by Jor-el, 02 January 2013 - 07:52 PM.

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"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#205    Jor-el

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 07:50 PM

View PostSean93, on 02 January 2013 - 07:45 PM, said:

Better to just say that then instead of using inappropriate words. But whatever, I never wrote the bible.

They can't change what is actually written, even when the meanings of the words themselves have morphed over time

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"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#206    redhen

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 08:02 PM

View PostSean93, on 02 January 2013 - 07:38 PM, said:

Perhaps you've read Epicurus?

Posted Image

Your post reminded me of this quote.

Finally, after 4 pages someone addresses the OP's question.

Indeed, whence evil?


#207    Jor-el

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 08:04 PM

View Postredhen, on 02 January 2013 - 08:02 PM, said:

Finally, after 4 pages someone addresses the OP's question.

Indeed, whence evil?

It was addressed a number of times over the last 14 pages.... The source of evil... people.

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#208    joc

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 08:19 PM

View PostJor-el, on 02 January 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:

Interesting outlook, but on another thread, the basic conclusion is that "self" is actually the source of all evil on this world.

It is an error of epic proportions to believe that "The strong over the weak applies only to the 'animal kingdom'", it is the most basic and straight forward aspect of human nature, You find it everywhere, in our philosophies, in our politcs, in the very fabric of our society... we can see it every day for ourselves. If you want examples I could give you hundreds, Our nature speaks for itself.
Not in the context that you had placed it:

Quote

Jor-el, on 01 January 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

Actually that is incorrect, without God, you have no rights anyone needs to respect. I don't speak for myself here, it is basic logic, it is exactly how life is without God and how life used to be without God, and guess what, it will be what life will be like in the future, without God. It is the power of the strong over the weak, the natural order of things...

Then joc said:

Quote

The strong over the weak applies only to the 'animal kingdom'.  Mankind is different.  We exhibit an awareness of self.  That self realizes itself mostly as Ego.  As such, the 'gods' of prophets, ancient and dead, such as Moses, Abraham and Mohammed gave their 'god' Human Like qualities...anger, jealousy, etc.
God was invented by the mind of man and  is not logical.
That being said...I have no qualms whatsoever with those who strongly believe in God...even those who do have qualms with those who do not.
Your context was that, the strong over the weak is the default without God.  My assertion was that that default only applies to the animal kingdom.  They (the animals) have no concept of right vs wrong...and so it is all strong vs. weak.  My assertion is that with or without God, man has a concept of right vs wrong.  Of course strong vs evil is everpresent, but you were saying that without God, that is the natural state of man;  I disagree.

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#209    Jor-el

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 08:36 PM

View Postjoc, on 02 January 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

Not in the context that you had placed it:



Then joc said:

Your context was that, the strong over the weak is the default without God.  My assertion was that that default only applies to the animal kingdom.  They (the animals) have no concept of right vs wrong...and so it is all strong vs. weak.  My assertion is that with or without God, man has a concept of right vs wrong.  Of course strong vs evil is everpresent, but you were saying that without God, that is the natural state of man;  I disagree.

You can of course disagree.. please demonstrate that this is not the natural state of man.

Edited by Jor-el, 02 January 2013 - 08:36 PM.

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"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

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#210    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 02 January 2013 - 09:16 PM

View PostJor-el, on 02 January 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

The problem with that is ignorance of what it means to "fear God"... like many other words over time, the meaning has been somewhat diluted and changed. It does not merely mean "to be afraid of". It means to be in awe of, to respect with great reverence...

It's a form of narcissistic supply/megalomania, the only thing it truly supports is "god's" ego, and that is the only thing it is meant for.

http://en.wikipedia....sorder#Theories

A quote:

"In cases where the narcissistic personality-disordered individual feels a lack of admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation, he or she may also manifest a desire to be feared and to be notorious (narcissistic supply)"

Edited by HavocWing, 02 January 2013 - 09:20 PM.

Drunk with blood..
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Jewish gematria # 1162:
Who is like God
The epitome of evil




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