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Abductee support group set up in the UK


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#121    zoser

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 06:57 PM

View Postsam_comm, on 01 May 2014 - 06:06 AM, said:

Frauds and lies are part of our existence, no one will deny that. However, reducing these experiences at that is overlooking the charateristics, which are striking and supported by tangible clinical examinations by renowned specialists of the mind, that forms quite an exahaustive documentation that has been meticulously and rigorously put together.



It's not about believing but rather investigating. The conclusions stems from patterns, consistency, credibilty of the witnesess, the diagnostic and the poweful sessions of therapy. On a psychiatrical and psychodinamics level, this is a very unusual phenomenon that does raise legitimate ontological and philosophical interrogations. Obviously, there is matter for further research here.

In general, psychodynamics is the study of the interrelationship of various parts of the mind, personality, or psyche as they relate to mental, emotional, or motivational forces especially at the unconscious level.[4][5][6] The mental forces involved in psychodynamics are often divided into two parts:[7] (a) the interaction of the emotional and motivational forces that affect behavior and mental states, especially on a subconscious level; ( B) inner forces affecting behavior: the study of the emotional and motivational forces that affect behavior and states of mind.

Source: http://en.wikipedia..../Psychodynamics

''Fooled by claims'' does not render well with the emotionally powerful hypnosis regression therapy that have been carried, in hours of study and examinations of the abductees.

Well put.

It's nice to read posts from someone who rejects bland dismisiveness.

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#122    scowl

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 07:03 PM

View Postzoser, on 01 May 2014 - 06:55 PM, said:

Look for common details.  Be a good detective.  Listen to the case reviews by the experts; you know who they are.

Being a good detective means finding evidence, not relying on the opinions of self-declared "experts".


#123    zoser

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 07:09 PM

View Postscowl, on 01 May 2014 - 07:03 PM, said:

Being a good detective means finding evidence, not relying on the opinions of self-declared "experts".

You won't find any.  The best that can be found in the abduction phenomena is a few who claim that they have triangular marks on their thighs.

By the very nature of the subject 'hard evidence' is difficult to find.  There are other ways to pursue the subject though.

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#124    scowl

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 08:02 PM

View Postzoser, on 01 May 2014 - 07:09 PM, said:

You won't find any.  

And what does that tell you.

And what does that tell a rational thinking person.

Like you say, if there's no smoke then there's no fire.


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The best that can be found in the abduction phenomena is a few who claim that they have triangular marks on their thighs.

So the Space Brothers can travel through time and space and even matter yet can't figure out how to avoid leaving geometrical marks on their victims!

Quote

By the very nature of the subject 'hard evidence' is difficult to find.  There are other ways to pursue the subject though.

By its very nature, abduction, meaning the physical transportation of a person against their will, tends to leave a lot of evidence in the real world. What doesn't leave evidence are stories and hallucinations.


#125    zoser

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 08:07 PM

View Postscowl, on 01 May 2014 - 08:02 PM, said:

And what does that tell you.


That we are dealing with a phenomena that can only be decoded by deep investigation.  It's not a fingerprint and murder weapon exercise.  You did ask!

View Postscowl, on 01 May 2014 - 08:02 PM, said:


And what does that tell a rational thinking person.


To dig deeper and research wider.  Not to limit oneself to classic and outdated thinking.  You did ask.

View Postscowl, on 01 May 2014 - 08:02 PM, said:


Like you say, if there's no smoke then there's no fire.


Smoke is subtle.  When the fire burns fiercely the smoke becomes unseen does it not?

View Postscowl, on 01 May 2014 - 08:02 PM, said:


So the Space Brothers can travel through time and space and even matter yet can't figure out how to avoid leaving geometrical marks on their victims!


Yep.  Some may well be resident here too.  You are learning.

View Postscowl, on 01 May 2014 - 08:02 PM, said:


By its very nature, abduction, meaning the physical transportation of a person against their will, tends to leave a lot of evidence in the real world........

Such as?

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#126    sam_comm

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 09:08 PM

View Postsinewave, on 01 May 2014 - 02:44 PM, said:

That demonstrates little more than some academics can assemble and interpret lots of data.  The fact remains.  There is no evidence to support the claims.   Analysis and lengthy prose are meaningless without some kind evidence to back them up.

The lack of concrete, measurable proof is the weak point of the alien abudction phenomenon, on that we certainly agree. Though it's not uncommon that abductees may as a result of their experiences, demonstrate strange markings on their bodies, report previous UFO sightings in their lives corroborated by other witnesses (Mack, 1993).

However it would be helpful to be more specific about ''evidence''. Is the kind of evidence required an accessory such as a screwdriver or a needle lying around in a spaceship ? Would that be enough to consider seriously that some unknown entities are going and leaving at will beween one reality to another, disregarding the laws of physics? I have my doubt!

In any case, if I get robbed in an empty street somehwere by an unidentified man, I may have no proof to offer to the police agent but only an acurate description, a reconstruction of the event which may help the investigators to find a suspect. Yet crime records are full of such unsolved cases, but that certainly doesn't mean I and other victims are pathological liars, my experience the product of imagination. It did happen and all I ask is to understand the motive, the reason why I had to live this experience.

The purpose of investigating is to get a the bottom of the matter, the claims that are made and seek the truth. If no evidence is ever found that support physical abductions (and not a kind transpersonal experience which is indeed very difficult to prove or refute) by extraterrestrial entities, it may well be that such thing never occured. But a solid argument could be made, and it deserves consideration, that it would be extremely foolish and clumsy for such advanced entities, to leave obvious and blatant traces behind them, if the idea is to operate without human knowledge.

View Postsinewave, on 01 May 2014 - 02:44 PM, said:

Yes, there is consistency but that does not imply the experiences are not imaginary.  I asked you earlier if you had ever experienced hypnagogic or hypnopompic events.  If you have, you know how frightening they can be and would have some idea the power recurring dreams like that could have.   If not, you have no clue what this is about.

I've researched quite a bit about sleep paralysis and hypnagogic hallucinations. I can tell you that very rarely two persons will hallucinate the same things, the same way in familiar timeframe , even less form a consistent mosaic on the scale that is the abduction phenomenon.

The main characteristics of hypnagogic hallucinations are:
  • Hypnagogic hallucinations can occur at the onset of sleep, either by day or at night. They are usually quite vivid and visual.
  • Visual hallucinations usually consist of simple forms such as coloured circles or parts of objects that may be constant or changing in size. A formed image of an animal or a person may appear and it is often in colour.
Source: http://www.patient.c...lucinations.htm

I find to be very interesting and credible hypthesis to explain the shadow people phenomenon (shapes seen in the corner of the eye at night) as well as the '' old hag sydrome'' which often comes with the paralysis. However (and anyone familiar with abuctees accounts, notably reported by Mack in is rigurous research) will know that a significant part of the accounts suggest a totally wakeful state! In a car, hiking, walking and so on. If a patient is hallucinating days and nights, that strongly point to a state of severe psychosis and schizofrenia which the abductees are proved not to be!


I've also personally experienced lucid, vivid dreams (another of your speculation) and honestly, after personally experiencing 3 such dreams, which is not unusual at all, that it is striking as well as fascinating but clearly a sound and sane mind can make the diference between the reality and the dream. These experiencers are intelligent persons and are often skeptical of their own exeriences, not quite believing it themseves. Yet it's not ''just a nightmare''.

Edited by sam_comm, 01 May 2014 - 09:30 PM.


#127    sam_comm

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 09:56 PM

View Poststereologist, on 01 May 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

The "fooled by claims" is a correct characterization of the issue. The use of hypnosis regression therapy causes people to believe events as true even when they are not. It causes people to generate false memories of being molested as children. It has even caused the perpetrators of this method to fall into their own traps, which I call fitting. It has been used to destroy families and lives.

What you do not have is evidence. All you have is stories and some of those stories are created by those pretending to research the experiences.

Your have a good point here. That's why I cannot based my opinion of this phenomenon on the sole ground of hypnosis therapy. But it's important to mention that researches have proved that real memories and so real accounts can be extracted by hypnosis.  Reference: ( Barnier, A. M., McConkey ) as provided in Appendix A of Abduction: Human Encounters with Aliens by John E. Mack.

I must admit it seems to me far-fetched that hypnosis has significantly altered the mind of more than 800+ patients that have been studied over a decade of research, providing similar and consistant patterns, accounts related in a counscious state of mind, as well as uncouscious ones in hypnosis therapy. I have no doubt about the professionalism and ethic of John E. Mack and oftimes other researchers and relative of the patients were invited to attend the sessions. Even if details of these are inacurate or ''exaggerated'' in some personal way inthe mind of the subject it does not mean the experience should be deemed unfounded.

Edited by sam_comm, 01 May 2014 - 10:14 PM.


#128    scowl

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 10:11 PM

View Postzoser, on 01 May 2014 - 08:07 PM, said:

That we are dealing with a phenomena that can only be decoded by deep investigation.  It's not a fingerprint and murder weapon exercise.  You did ask!

And what deep investigation are you doing other than watching youtube videos in your armchair during the evenings?

Quote

To dig deeper and research wider.  Not to limit oneself to classic and outdated thinking.  You did ask.

Gosh zoser, you forgot to link a bunch of youtube videos here.

Quote

Smoke is subtle.  When the fire burns fiercely the smoke becomes unseen does it not?

Son, have you ever seen a building or a forest catch on fire. You'll see smoke for miles.

That's right, folks. Zoser doesn't know much about fire either.

Quote

Yep.  Some may well be resident here too.  You are learning.

You are not and you never will.

Quote

Such as?

Well, going through recent real cases of abduction in my area, they tend to have witnesses, signs of struggle, forensic evidence such as fibers, and complete memories of the abduction if the victim survives. I'm sure you'll be able to say why your make-believe abduction cases would never have any of those things.


#129    scowl

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 10:17 PM

View Postsam_comm, on 01 May 2014 - 09:08 PM, said:

In any case, if I get robbed in an empty street somehwere by an unidentified man, I may have no proof to offer to the police agent but only an acurate description, a reconstruction of the event which may help the investigators to find a suspect. Yet crime records are full of such unsolved cases, but that certainly doesn't mean I and other victims are pathological liars, my experience the product of imagination. It did happen and all I ask is to understand the motive, the reason why I had to live this experience.

The difference here is that we have prisons full of people who will admit to having committed similar acts and even explain why they did them. Some of them were actually caught with the stolen property and that became evidence that the act did take place and more generally that such events do happen.

We have captured no aliens thus far much less evidence or confessions from them.


#130    stereologist

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 11:52 PM

View Postzoser, on 01 May 2014 - 06:55 PM, said:

Look for common details.  Be a good detective.  Listen to the case reviews by the experts; you know who they are.
Where is the evidence to back up these tall tales?


#131    stereologist

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 11:53 PM

View Postzoser, on 01 May 2014 - 07:09 PM, said:

You won't find any.  The best that can be found in the abduction phenomena is a few who claim that they have triangular marks on their thighs.

By the very nature of the subject 'hard evidence' is difficult to find.  There are other ways to pursue the subject though.
Thus these are nothing more than tall tales.


#132    stereologist

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Posted 01 May 2014 - 11:56 PM

View Postzoser, on 01 May 2014 - 08:07 PM, said:

That we are dealing with a phenomena that can only be decoded by deep investigation.  It's not a fingerprint and murder weapon exercise.  You did ask!

To dig deeper and research wider.  Not to limit oneself to classic and outdated thinking.  You did ask.

Smoke is subtle.  When the fire burns fiercely the smoke becomes unseen does it not?

Yep.  Some may well be resident here too.  You are learning.

Such as?
First some basic English. The word is phenomenon, not phenomena.

Second, there is nothing here but tall tales. There is no evidence to suggestion this is anything more than stories. There is no digging deeper. That is just horse pucky you are flinging about.


#133    stereologist

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 12:03 AM

View Postsam_comm, on 01 May 2014 - 09:08 PM, said:

The lack of concrete, measurable proof is the weak point of the alien abudction phenomenon, on that we certainly agree. Though it's not uncommon that abductees may as a result of their experiences, demonstrate strange markings on their bodies, report previous UFO sightings in their lives corroborated by other witnesses (Mack, 1993).

I've researched quite a bit about sleep paralysis and hypnagogic hallucinations. I can tell you that very rarely two persons will hallucinate the same things, the same way in familiar timeframe , even less form a consistent mosaic on the scale that is the abduction phenomenon.

The main characteristics of hypnagogic hallucinations are:
  • Hypnagogic hallucinations can occur at the onset of sleep, either by day or at night. They are usually quite vivid and visual.
  • Visual hallucinations usually consist of simple forms such as coloured circles or parts of objects that may be constant or changing in size. A formed image of an animal or a person may appear and it is often in colour.
Source: http://www.patient.c...lucinations.htm

I find to be very interesting and credible hypthesis to explain the shadow people phenomenon (shapes seen in the corner of the eye at night) as well as the '' old hag sydrome'' which often comes with the paralysis. However (and anyone familiar with abuctees accounts, notably reported by Mack in is rigurous research) will know that a significant part of the accounts suggest a totally wakeful state! In a car, hiking, walking and so on. If a patient is hallucinating days and nights, that strongly point to a state of severe psychosis and schizofrenia which the abductees are proved not to be!

Your story about reporting a crime to the police is an excellent example of the sort of evidence that needs to be located. If you repeatedly reported a theft and after a dozen claimed robberies nothing was ever found you'd be labeled a kook. You'd be labeled a lonely person, or a delusional person, etc. But if the culprits were caught and something from you recovered you'd be vindicated. As far as these tall tales from abductees nothing has ever corroborated their tales.

And their tales are not similar. The look of the aliens simply reflects the latest in films. What the aliens do reflects the latest in technologies. These are nothing more than tall tales with believers in this silliness begging for some truth in these tales which simply is not there.


#134    stereologist

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 12:09 AM

View Postsam_comm, on 01 May 2014 - 09:56 PM, said:

Your have a good point here. That's why I cannot based my opinion of this phenomenon on the sole ground of hypnosis therapy. But it's important to mention that researches have proved that real memories and so real accounts can be extracted by hypnosis.  Reference: ( Barnier, A. M., McConkey ) as provided in Appendix A of Abduction: Human Encounters with Aliens by John E. Mack.

I must admit it seems to me far-fetched that hypnosis has significantly altered the mind of more than 800+ patients that have been studied over a decade of research, providing similar and consistant patterns, accounts related in a counscious state of mind, as well as uncouscious ones in hypnosis therapy. I have no doubt about the professionalism and ethic of John E. Mack and oftimes other researchers and relative of the patients were invited to attend the sessions. Even if details of these are inacurate or ''exaggerated'' in some personal way inthe mind of the subject it does not mean the experience should be deemed unfounded.

Sometimes real memories can be obtained by hypnosis. It's a crap shoot with the wins being mentioned and the misses being swept under the rug.

As far as the regression baloney goes it is pure and simple crap without regard to the people involved. Any consistency in patterns is due to the people involved. It is cultural and dependent on the wants and desires of the phoney researchers involved.

These stories of alien abductions have a pattern which reflects the cinema. The aliens come from Hollywood. They are from TV and movies. What happens to the people is based on our current technology. Nothing is reported that isn't already a part of the culture in which the people live.


#135    scowl

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Posted 02 May 2014 - 04:19 PM

View Poststereologist, on 01 May 2014 - 11:56 PM, said:

Second, there is nothing here but tall tales. There is no evidence to suggestion this is anything more than stories. There is no digging deeper. That is just horse pucky you are flinging about.

Zoser believes that this phenomenon is so special, so unique, and so beyond the comprehension of most human brains that understanding it goes beyond such mundane details as evidence or antiquated practices such as science.

As I've said before, these people don't want explanations. They want a new religion to believe in. They want to believe in a universe beyond ours where supernatural creatures can do magical things. UFOs are the new "angel sightings".





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