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How many of you can get to the starting line?


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#316    cormac mac airt

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 04:37 AM

View PostSwampgasBalloonBoy, on 19 January 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:

Have you forgotten the engineers and pilots also? You would also need an intact spaceship that can travel to to other planets. A crashed spaceship with a body mean nothing. If the life scientists examine the body and determined it to be nothing known to man, it could just be an undiscovered earth specie. The burned up debris could just be some government "black project". The body could just be a genetically modified animal. The possibility are endless, everything is possible except ET. Your trust in the scientists only, are incomplete. You need to be tougher, why so soft? Without an actual working "flying saucer" there can be no aliens. Would you believe a biologist that confessed to being probed by aliens? They would know what an alien looked like since they study the science of life. :innocent:

No, I haven't forgotten anything. But I was talking about what could be discovered by biologists, doctors or forensic pathologists. And with the current use of genetic testing, since all life on earth is related (to various greater or lesser degrees) it can be determined through mtDNA, Y Chromosome DNA or Nuclear DNA whether a body was of terrestrial origin or not. Regardless of whether or not it was human.

Putting words in my mouth again? Because that's not what I've said. I'm not sure you even remotely realize what science can tell us. It's a great deal more than you apparently realize.

Actually the opposite is true. Without extraterrestrials (putting humans in space aside) there could be no extraterrestrial craft.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#317    topsecretresearch

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 04:48 AM

View PostSwampgasBalloonBoy, on 19 January 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:

Have you forgotten the engineers and pilots also? You would also need an intact spaceship that can travel to to other planets. A crashed spaceship with a body mean nothing. If the life scientists examine the body and determined it to be nothing known to man, it could just be an undiscovered earth specie. The burned up debris could just be some government "black project". The body could just be a genetically modified animal. The possibility are endless, everything is possible except ET. Your trust in the scientists only, are incomplete. You need to be tougher, why so soft? Without an actual working "flying saucer" there can be no aliens. Would you believe a biologist that confessed to being probed by aliens? They would know what an alien looked like since they study the science of life. :innocent:

There are indicators that point to a space faring origin. The "no evidence" talk is just cover-up types or people that don't know much about the subject matter.

"The resemblance of the sample to a meteorite was confirmed by the pattern of trace elements detected in the ICP-MS analysis. The analysis confirmed the presence of traces of iridium, which is very rare on earth, but is universally present in meteoric iron."

This is from lab analysis of an alleged alien implant that was surgically removed.


#318    mcrom901

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 09:53 AM

View PostSwampgasBalloonBoy, on 19 January 2013 - 01:53 AM, said:

But since the court of law required evidence but the investigators failed to find any, and all the they have are the confession of the suspect and 19 witnesses saying they saw him with the disappeared person. Do you think the court will set him free? even with the suspect's confession, under no duress, it's of his own free will, you would still let him go? please be honest.


http://en.wikipedia....ntific_evidence
http://en.wikipedia....i/Evidence_(law)


#319    mcrom901

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 10:30 AM

View Posttopsecretresearch, on 19 January 2013 - 04:48 AM, said:

There are indicators that point to a space faring origin. The "no evidence" talk is just cover-up types or people that don't know much about the subject matter.

"The resemblance of the sample to a meteorite was confirmed by the pattern of trace elements detected in the ICP-MS analysis. The analysis confirmed the presence of traces of iridium, which is very rare on earth, but is universally present in meteoric iron."

This is from lab analysis of an alleged alien implant that was surgically removed.

why wasn't that paper peer reviewed?

Quote

Conclusions
1. The sample consists mainly of iron, with a high carbon and oxygen content. The
iron base material contains 5.2% nickel, and is highly magnetic.  Traces of
iridium, and other precious metals, tungsten, gallium, and germanium present
strongly suggest that snip



#320    SwampgasBalloonBoy

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 01:40 AM

View Postmcrom901, on 19 January 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:


Thanks?

I think my question regarding what the court would do in such situation is simple enough to answer, without having to refer to the definition of scientific evidence.

please state your case.

Edited by SwampgasBalloonBoy, 20 January 2013 - 01:40 AM.


#321    quillius

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 01:29 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 18 January 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

I understand the hypothetical you've presented, but we don't live in the "let's pretend" world. But the real world where real, verifiable evidence is required to substantiate a claim and not "I saw something so it must be ET's".

I could use hypotheticals as well concerning pigs that really do fly or leopards that can change their spots, both of which are just as meaningless to the real world situation.

cormac

with all due respect Cormac you still missed my point (or I have failed to get it across). The hypothetical scenario is there to show how a fact  remains a fact even when there isnt evidence to suppoort it.

I will try once more, It is a fact that people were visited by aliens. The aliens leave no trace of evidence behind. 100 people witness said alien but have no evidence to suppport this story, does this change the fact to a claim? no , only to the person hearing the claim. The fact (the event that happened) remains a fact.

So a person can put forward a claim as fact because if that is what it is, the point that people can lie, be mistaken etc is irrelevant to this conversation as we (as narrators) know what happened.

i.e. I went toilet at 9am today (this is my claim and it is a fact)
I cannot prove it to you, but its still a fact. Some may argue that it can only ever be a fact to me on a personal level and that it cannot be a fact to anyone else, this is nearly true, I would phrase it that 'it is a fact to me personally and a fact in itself'

Because I am the only one that can know its a fact and billions of people cant, it doesnt stop it being a fact!!!!

like the old saying ' plural of anecdotes is not data'

I say ' a fact is a fact, even if 1 billion people can only acknowledge it as a claim'


#322    cormac mac airt

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 03:26 PM

View Postquillius, on 21 January 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

with all due respect Cormac you still missed my point (or I have failed to get it across). The hypothetical scenario is there to show how a fact  remains a fact even when there isnt evidence to suppoort it.

I will try once more, It is a fact that people were visited by aliens. The aliens leave no trace of evidence behind. 100 people witness said alien but have no evidence to suppport this story, does this change the fact to a claim? no , only to the person hearing the claim. The fact (the event that happened) remains a fact.

So a person can put forward a claim as fact because if that is what it is, the point that people can lie, be mistaken etc is irrelevant to this conversation as we (as narrators) know what happened.

i.e. I went toilet at 9am today (this is my claim and it is a fact)
I cannot prove it to you, but its still a fact. Some may argue that it can only ever be a fact to me on a personal level and that it cannot be a fact to anyone else, this is nearly true, I would phrase it that 'it is a fact to me personally and a fact in itself'

Because I am the only one that can know its a fact and billions of people cant, it doesnt stop it being a fact!!!!

like the old saying ' plural of anecdotes is not data'

I say ' a fact is a fact, even if 1 billion people can only acknowledge it as a claim'

Go back and reread Post #274 as I said much the same thing to you.

What is a personal fact for a few is entirely irrelevant to what is represented as a fact to the larger population, which is what the whole debate concerning ET's is about. And we have to assume your hypothetical is correct in order for your fact to be true. An assumption of which is of little use in the real world.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#323    quillius

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 03:42 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 21 January 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:

Go back and reread Post #274 as I said much the same thing to you.

What is a personal fact for a few is entirely irrelevant to what is represented as a fact to the larger population, which is what the whole debate concerning ET's is about. And we have to assume your hypothetical is correct in order for your fact to be true. An assumption of which is of little use in the real world.

cormac

no I dont think its the same. A personal fact it is in ADDITION to it being an actual fact, so why cant it be presented as fact if that is what it is? surely the problem lay with the larger population, for them it is just a claim...

as for the assumption on the hypothetical, well yes, it was like the me going to toilet version....its a fact. Not juts a personal fact but an actual fact....to you its just a claim but to me and in actual essence it remains a fact.

Edited by quillius, 21 January 2013 - 03:46 PM.


#324    cormac mac airt

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 04:12 PM

View Postquillius, on 21 January 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

no I dont think its the same. A personal fact it is in ADDITION to it being an actual fact, so why cant it be presented as fact if that is what it is? surely the problem lay with the larger population, for them it is just a claim...

as for the assumption on the hypothetical, well yes, it was like the me going to toilet version....its a fact. Not juts a personal fact but an actual fact....to you its just a claim but to me and in actual essence it remains a fact.

No, the problem lays with the question of what level it's being presented as a fact. A personal level where a single person or small group of people may factually see ET's (hypothetically, of course) doesn't automatically equate it to being a fact for the larger population. Yet, with the ET crowd this is quite often what is presented as fact for everyone. "I saw an ET so just believe me" is never a valid argument.

That's the whole point. Your hypothetical is only a fact to the people involved. And not a fact to anyone else so therefore meaningless in regards to claiming it as such.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#325    quillius

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 04:21 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 21 January 2013 - 04:12 PM, said:

No, the problem lays with the question of what level it's being presented as a fact. A personal level where a single person or small group of people may factually see ET's (hypothetically, of course) doesn't automatically equate it to being a fact for the larger population. Yet, with the ET crowd this is quite often what is presented as fact for everyone. "I saw an ET so just believe me" is never a valid argument.

That's the whole point. Your hypothetical is only a fact to the people involved. And not a fact to anyone else so therefore meaningless in regards to claiming it as such.

cormac

I still cannot agree to the extent that it is not a fact only to those involved it is a fact full stop. Your right in that it is not a fact to anyone else but at the same time it is not a fact limited to those that know its a fact....

anyways I thikn this one has run its course, Cormac...its been emotional but lets leave it there...agreed?


#326    cormac mac airt

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 04:29 PM

View Postquillius, on 21 January 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

I still cannot agree to the extent that it is not a fact only to those involved it is a fact full stop. Your right in that it is not a fact to anyone else but at the same time it is not a fact limited to those that know its a fact....

anyways I thikn this one has run its course, Cormac...its been emotional but lets leave it there...agreed?

And I'm not interested in assuming the conclusion. So yeah, agreed.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#327    quillius

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 04:36 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 21 January 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

And I'm not interested in assuming the conclusion. So yeah, agreed.

cormac

Neither am I my friend, neither am I......


#328    nopeda

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 08:41 PM

View PostCrikey, on 16 January 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

Good point, Prof. Gertrude Shmeidler did experiments some years ago that showed how closed-minded people seemed to dig themselves into a 'pit of disbelief' which made them score below average in ESP tests. (the 'Sheep-Goat Effect)
Gettit?- they should simply have scored average, yet something was dragging them down to below average!
They're below average regarding the possibility that xts HAVE been here, that's for sure. Maybe they have been. Maybe they have not. The closed minded can only consider one of countless possibilities. How could they get any less capable, or any lower than they are?


#329    nopeda

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 08:49 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 16 January 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

This is the whole problem with the Aliens/Ancient Astronauts/ET claims IMO. There are a ridiculous amount of "could have's", "maybe's", "might have been's", "what if's" and a complete and total lack of verifiable physical evidence of ET's existance.
AFAIK for every real possible xt involvement there's no verifiable physical evidence for, there's also none that explains how else the things that make it seem possible could have taken place. Instead there are just a bunch of "maybe's", "might have been's", "what if's"....


#330    nopeda

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 08:56 PM

View PostNuke_em, on 17 January 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

Quote

nopeda, on 16 January 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:
You brought up a very significant aspect. With all the stars out there it's almost certain there are beings who are traveling to different star systems. The bigger question is whether any have been to this one or not.
. . .
we know people have reported UFO practically everywhere on earth or skies...i have seen massive number of videos and footage of such things, well i like being in the flow with current information stream. And i came to conclusion that we don't have evidence a firm proof of ETI visiting our planet, we do have  loads of sighting reports, which means something was going on or still is..this is irrefutable fact.
So it all comes down to a simple mental subject... belief.. and it will stay like that until offical contact is made and reported on global scale.
I can say from my perspective i've seen footage that is just out there...simply cannot be explained by human mind...UFOs, most of those which in my opinion were very real looked like some sort of science fiction craft. In some cases the craft deployed another smaller craft and main part flew away while smaller one did some sort of survey ( that is just speculation, i don't have a firm idea of what it was doing ). At one time there was event with some sort of a probe observed at sea, which was just hovering there while crew recoreded it, what it was doing i don't have a clue but entire thing looked very spooky...
There's no doubt that some of the claims, photos, videos etc are fakes. The question is whether or not any of them are real. Accepting the possibility that some are is the starting line on that one.





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