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'Reasonable force' or 'murder'?

burglars shot reasonable force murder

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127 replies to this topic

#16    Corp

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:37 PM

He was defending his home...and then he became a murderer.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse...A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

#17    Bavarian Raven

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:44 PM

what a fool...nothing wrong with defending yourself. but he went too, too far...


#18    and then

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:10 AM

View PostGrey14, on 26 November 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

The girl is the one that laughed at him.
The gun jammed after he had already shot the girl once and she had fallen down the stairs and thats when she laughed at him. And then this happened from the article

He then shot her several times in the chest with a .22-caliber revolver, dragged her next to her cousin, and with as she gasped for air, fired a shot under her chin 'up into the cranium'.
'Smith described it as "a good clean finishing shot",' according to the compliant, and acknowledged he had fired 'more shots than (he) needed to'.


That sir is murder

I agree.  It also sounds strange that anyone would be laughing at him AFTER he had shot them.  Drugs, maybe?  He went beyond self defense and he murdered them.

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#19    lightly

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:19 AM

moida

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#20    F3SS

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:49 AM

View PostGrey14, on 26 November 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:


The girl is the one that laughed at him.
The gun jammed after he had already shot the girl once and she had fallen down the stairs and thats when she laughed at him. And then this happened from the article

He then shot her several times in the chest with a .22-caliber revolver, dragged her next to her cousin, and with as she gasped for air, fired a shot under her chin 'up into the cranium'.
'Smith described it as "a good clean finishing shot",' according to the compliant, and acknowledged he had fired 'more shots than (he) needed to'.


That sir is murder

That's crazy. Doesn't seem like something a first time shooter would do. This guy has either killed before or the 8 break-ins turned him nuts waiting for the moment. This is what happens when you break into Dexters house.

Edited by -Mr_Fess-, 27 November 2012 - 03:50 AM.

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#21    ozman

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 04:52 AM

He killed a TEENAGE GIRL, THAT WILL BE TOUGH ON HIM IN COURT I BET YOU ANYTHING HE WILL GET MANSLAUGHTER OR WORSE FELONY AND HE WILL HAVE A HARD LIFE AHEAD OF HIM.  What kind of man kills a girl, was she not visible as a girl was she wearing a mask? wtf.  How can a woman that is not armed harm you?

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#22    Odin11

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:24 AM

View Postozman, on 27 November 2012 - 04:52 AM, said:

What kind of man kills a girl, was she not visible as a girl was she wearing a mask? wtf.  How can a woman that is not armed harm you?

I don’t get this mentality. A woman is just as capable of harming someone as a man.

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#23    ouija ouija

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:08 PM

What makes me so mad is the response of the friends, relatives and even a teacher. These kids were druggies and robbers, for goodness' sake! One describes the girl as a 'popular role model' .... wtf?!! " They were just really great people ..... they could make anyone laugh". Not much of a laugh for Smith, an old(-ish) man living on his own experiencing many burglaries. I'm not surprised he 'cracked'.

Fair play to him, he didn't try to make up a story, he told police exactly what happened. I feel sorry for him. He probably saw the burglaries stretching on into the future, no end to them, and him not getting any younger. Druggy kids just helping themselves to stuff that he'd spent his hard-earned cash on to enjoy in his retirement.

These two were high as kites: she hears her cousin being shot at but she follows him into the basement!! Unless, of course, she knew he(her cousin), was armed and thought he had shot Smith? (Although no mention in the article of either of them being armed).

At the very least, I hope this makes other kids stop and think before doing something similar. As I said in my OP: if you trespass onto someone else's property you mustn't complain about anything that happens to you.

Edited by ouija ouija, 27 November 2012 - 08:56 PM.

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#24    F3SS

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:20 PM

View Postozman, on 27 November 2012 - 04:52 AM, said:

He killed a TEENAGE GIRL, THAT WILL BE TOUGH ON HIM IN COURT I BET YOU ANYTHING HE WILL GET MANSLAUGHTER OR WORSE FELONY AND HE WILL HAVE A HARD LIFE AHEAD OF HIM.  What kind of man kills a girl, was she not visible as a girl was she wearing a mask? wtf.  How can a woman that is not armed harm you?
Who cares if it was a girl or not? The kids got what they deserved from the first bullet but the fact that he walked up to the girl while she was down, put a gun under her chin and blew her brains out is just not what good citizens do. It's great in the movies but we have laws for a reason. If he killed them on the first shot that's a different story but he walked into premeditation grounds with the "kill shot". Also, the fact that they were teenagers is even more unsettling. I know they were worthless punks but to look a young person in the eyes, see the youth in their face and kill them tells me this guy didn't give a ****. Maybe he had it thought out already. Maybe his idea was screw it, I'll go to jail if it means I'm sending a loud and clear message. RESPECT O.P.P.

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#25    aztek

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:33 PM

you really don't want to leave burglars alive, they will sue you and win, it happened before. not to mention big  chance he will come back later, not to rob, but to kill you this time. it also happened before.

use.44 mag, and kill them with first shot, .22 is for target practice, not home defence.

he did the right thing the wrong way.

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#26    F3SS

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:37 PM

View Postaztek, on 27 November 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

you really don't want to leave burglars alive, they will sue you and win, it happened before. not to mention big  chance he will come back later, not to rob, but to kill you this time. it also happened before.

use.44 mag, and kill them with first shot, .22 is for target practice, not home defence.

he did the right thing the wrong way.
Only if the first bullet kills is it the right thing. Unless you're dealing with some real bad guys who are actively trying to kill you even if they went down first then you do what you have to do. This guy didn't have to do what he did. That said, with these kids dead I'm sure the world hasn't lost anything.

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#27    aztek

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 08:55 PM

it doesn't have to be first shot, you shoot as many times as it takes them  to stop moving, and it doesn't matter if they move  laying down on the floor, you still shoot until they freeze. ( 1 shot with.44mag in the chest will at least drop you, and most likely kill). if you don't have .44, you just keep shooting. just like cops do here 30-40 shots at one person, only 10 hits. lol.
  how, if intruders dropped disabled, and you shoot them on the floor, to make sure they are dead. in the eyes of the law it is not self defence anymore. not that i agree, but law is a law.

Edited by aztek, 27 November 2012 - 08:55 PM.

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#28    F3SS

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:12 PM

Well sure everything is circumstantial but this was a teenage girl not Michael Myers.
I think it's clear you'd shoot somebody and I would too but if an unarmed teenage girl broke into your house and you dropped her thereby eliminating any real threat could you honestly say that you would walk up to her and blow her brains out execution style? Maybe we don't need you to answer that but if you did would you feel justified in doing so?

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#29    DieChecker

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:23 PM

View Postaztek, on 27 November 2012 - 08:55 PM, said:

it doesn't have to be first shot, you shoot as many times as it takes them  to stop moving, and it doesn't matter if they move  laying down on the floor, you still shoot until they freeze. ( 1 shot with.44mag in the chest will at least drop you, and most likely kill). if you don't have .44, you just keep shooting. just like cops do here 30-40 shots at one person, only 10 hits. lol.
  how, if intruders dropped disabled, and you shoot them on the floor, to make sure they are dead. in the eyes of the law it is not self defence anymore. not that i agree, but law is a law.
Even that is different from putting a gun under the chin of someone on the ground and blowing the top of their head off. Popping off more shots in fear or stress because someone kept moving is understandable, but going slowly over, pulling up their head, placing the gun under the chin, at just the right angle, and pulling the trigger is murder, not defense.

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#30    pallidin

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:28 PM

Yeah, not sure how the law works in that state, but I'm fairly certain that continuing to shoot at a "downed" intruder if there is no clear or reasonably assumed continued threat it is aggravated involuntary manslaughter. If there IS a reasonably perceived threat you're OK.

However, the fact that he put the gun under her chin and killed her when she was down, that, in my book, becomes at that point premeditated murder. An "execution"

EDIT: But states are different regarding the defiinition of premeditation. And I'm no lawyer, but what he did, in my mind, was clearly wrong, and likely elevates the potential charges against him.

Edited by pallidin, 27 November 2012 - 09:38 PM.





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