847 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

Abramelin, on 16 March 2010 - 02:24 PM, said:

Llychlyn:
Fabulous or infernal region beneath the waves in such early Welsh texts as Breuddwyd Rhonabwy [The Dream of Rhonabwy]. Like the Irish cognate Lochlainn [..or 'Lochlann'..], Llychlyn comes also to mean Scandinavia, its definition in contemporary Modern Welsh.

http://www.answers.com/topic/llychlyn
http://www.answers.c...pic/lochlainn-1

So, initially Lochlann/Llychlyn was the name for a region beneath the waves, but later it became the name for Scandinavia.

Maybe because the Vikings came from the same direction (let's say, the north-east as seen from Ireland) as where once the original Lochlann/Llychlyn was located?

Now, if the Doggerlanders would have wanted to sail to ancient Ireland, then they would have to go north, pass by Scotland, and then go south again to reach Ireland, and so apparently coming from the north or north-east in the eyes of the people inhabiting ancient Ireland.

.

Well, someone else appears to have the same idea, and it's Ulf Erlingsson, the geographer/geologist who had a theory about Ireland being Atlantis (which I don't agree with at all). In his theory, however, he tries to explain that Dogger Island (the present Doggers Bank) was the place of origin for several ancient and mythical arrivals in ancient Ireland, and that it's final sinking into the waves was responsible for the creation of the Atlantis myth as described by Plato.

Here is his site : http://atlantisinireland.com/

And here's the video about his theory :

LINK

I made a still of the video that shows the travel of the Tuatha De Danann from Dogger Island to Ireland:


(the pink part is the area that is being uplifted as a result from the isostatic rebound)


.

Edited by Abramelin, 21 March 2010 - 02:05 PM.

[Abramelin]

On one of the first pages of this thread I said I would already be happy if they found some megalithic structures on the bottom of the present North Sea, and that I was not awaiting an announcement on CNN that they found a couple of pyramids down there..

The problem with the European megalithic structures is that they started building these things from around 4500 BC and onwards, and that is a couple of thousand years after the last part of Doggerland - the Dogger(s) bank - was flushed down the drain by the tsunami caused by the Storegga Slide off the coast of Noway.

But then I remembered that on one of my many Google searches for this topic I found a structure in Denmark - a tumulus? - that dated from 6000 BC, and we now know that that was just a 100 years after Doggerland sank beneath the waves, and could have been built by refugees from Doggerland. That was months ago, and I also remember that when I tried to retrieve that page/image, I failed to find it again.

So, a few days ago I made another attempt to find that structure in Denmark, but ended up with a link to site from a guy who tried to prove that both Homer's Iliad and Plato's Atlantis originated/took place in/around the North Sea.

Well, I guess many of you know that some have tried to prove that Atlantis was in the Baltic (Vinci) or in Ireland/Doggers Bank (Ulf Erlingsson) or around/on Helgoland (Spanuth) or that the Iliad took place in England/North Sea (Iman Wilkins and several others), and you all know that I tried to stay away from "Atlantis" as much as possible.

OK, but with that Google search, I hit upon this site ( http://www.nwepexplo.../megaliths.html ) by a "Guy Gervis", who situated Homer's Iliad and Plato's Atlantis in and around the North Sea; he even has a name for Doggerland:  "Lacuna" (which means nothing more or less than 'gap', or 'hole'). Well, he admitted to have been inspired by the ones I mentioned, but he also wrote about a few other people I never heard of, and so I Googled again.

One of the people he mentioned was Robert Graves, and he said that this philosopher/poet assumed that the Dogger Bank was the place of Atlantis (the City). Hmmm... I couldn't find anything about Graves and his ideas about Atlantis being situated in the North Sea ( I do have his "The White Goddess", but I didn't check it for any mentioning of the Atlantis myth. I will, believe me...).

Then there's this another name that Gervis talked about, Jean Deruelle, and his book "De la préhistoire à l'Atlantide des megaliths'.

That got me a bit further.......

I found a PFD file, in French, that had sort of a summary of Deruelle's theory:

http://artslivres.co...icle.php?ld=535, "13 HIS Atlantide (2009_12_10) trampoline".

And this is what I made of it (my excuses for the translation, I had to use what I remember of my highschool French lessons and assisted by Google translation)

Translation:

=

I call "trampoline" a file that is abundant, opens up new avenues, and proceeds by jumps around a main topic.

1. I put on the site the full BT2 (file of?) Atlantis.
It is a working document without illustrations or diagrams. It takes 15 pages in A4, 30 pages A5. The pdf file is adjusted to 90 [degrees] to allow playback. The chapters and paragraphs are numbered to enable reflection in depth. I included the next paragraphs:

- # 44 Solon: his inquiry, his projects,
- # 61 The meeting of two mysteries,
- # 62 Back on the "districts"
- # 63 Orychalcum may have been amber
- # 64 Ulysses, an unexpected witness.

2. Solon: his inquiry, projects (# 44).
Pierre Vidal-Naquet, historian, or Luc Brisson, translator of Plato, have refused to engage on the ground moving to the genesis of Atlantis. It is generally said that "while Plato invented. "I prefer to say, Plato did not invent anything but transformed". I left the idea that Solon had actually collected information from the Peoples of the North calls for convenience Atlantis. Solon, the great Athenian legislation was also a big seller (he was exporting olives) and a great traveler (he knew the Mediterranean). Curious about everything he had, I think, included information about traders who sold amber from the north. He would have amassed an impressive documentation. In his old age, according to testimonies, he was happy to present the point they said he rambled. I think Plato has received this documentation, it was pruned to reconstruct and make the text we know.

--

3. Megaliths (# 61) and "districts" (# 62)
I have retained as valid the assumptions made by Jean Deruelle (1915 - 2001), Ecole Polytechnique and a former director of Coal Mines of Lorraine. His fundamental work is "Atlantis megaliths" (1999 ed. France-Empire). There was little response despite the strength of its assumptions.We read with interest an interview summarizing his work in http://artslivres.co...icle.php?Id=535 (ME: ..which appears to be gone).
The megalithic civilization lasts - 5.000 to - 2.500. Peaceful and very organized, they built these huge monuments we know that some infrastructure. Archaeological traces of a social organization districts for their dimensions coincide with the "districts" described by Plato.

4. The Nordics driven by the cold. I summarized the data provided by Deruelle.
Towards -9000  starts communal life in Palestine (Jericho), then -6500 the extraordinary urban civilization in Asia Minor (Catal-Hoyuk). But around - 5000 they have disappeared. Subsequently, in high contrast, the European model is still present in the east and west. To the east, since the invention of the metallurgy of copper to -5000, Danube Valley is devastated for 3,000 years by successive migrations and violence: Nordics (-4,600), the Battle Axe Peoples (??) (-3,600), "Indo-Europeans "(-2,600), the Sea Peoples(-1,300).
A peaceful Western megalithic civilization develops, from -5000, the North Sea, Malta and well beyond via the Atlantic coast. It would have gradually disappeared after -2500. In -2300, driven by cold, the Nordics go down south. From -2200 till - 1800 a hot restore prosperity to Central Europe. What remained of the empire of the megaliths is won by violence but maintains its  mastery of the seas in the Mediterranean. From -1.800 to -1.500 a terrible cold spell forces the Nordics to go south again. The last attack had been coordinated by the survivors of the megalithic empire, the "Sea Peoples". The end of "Timeus" by Plato (25b) describes a massive offensive on the entire Middle East. It's almost word for word a copy of the inscriptions of the temple of Medinet Habu about the "Sea Peoples", which, towards -1.200, ravaged Greece,the Hittite Empire and tried to take over Egypt by both Libya and the Gaza Strip. The Egyptian Ramesses III stopped them with much difficulty. The accounts of his prisoners would be transmitted, eight hundred years later, to Solon by Egyptian priests. The Vikings (eighth - twelfth century), distant descendants of the Peoples of the Sea, will also have both sailors, merchants and warriors.

5. A brilliant civilization threatened by water.
Many convergences can assimilate the Orichalcum (# 63) amber, product abundant and renowned for its beauty. It was in great demand and its export contributed greatwealth to the peoples of the Baltic. The climate, while almost tropical, also allowed a prosperous agriculture. At one time it was almost tropical.
  
Ulysses (# 64) is shipwrecked on a realm protected by dikes. It must defend itself against the tides (which do not exist in the Mediterranean). Ulysses discovers a brilliant civilization. Homer said it disappeared after a cataclysm that destroyed its banks. All this indicated a kingdom in the North Sea. It could have been the focal point of the confederation of the Ten Western Kingdoms described by Plato. This confederation would have broken up after -2500. The sophisticated dikes of the Netherlands would be the worthy successor of structures described by Plato and Homer. Concerns about global warming climate and rising sea levels in northern Europe cause the same fear of disasters.

6. Dogger Bank.
Jean Deruelle thinks, for many reasons, that the Dogger Bank in the North Sea was the strategic center of a confederation. This coincides with the words of Solon - Plato. The Dogger Bank is situated 350 km from the Netherlands, is a submarine plateau of 300 x 100 km on the floor of the North Sea, and very dangerous in case of storm. Installed on the Dogger Bank, whereas low emerge, the kingdom has built its dams. After -7000 and this for 4,000 years. In -3000 the situation of the dikes seem to correspond broadly with what is said by Plato and Homer. The Great Plains of the kingdom was located 10 or 20 feet below the level of the sea where huge dikes protected it in a continual struggle. Towards -2600 climatic conditions cause a dramatic breaking of the dikes of the Great Plain. It´s inhabitants must flee. Only the capital remains above water. Towards -1800 the capital disappears, a victim of a last rise in sea level. Survivors join the Nordics and get organized to try to colonize the Mediterranean. Egyptians capture them. That would be the general pattern of this adventure.

7. The expedition proposed the following site, unfortunately inactive, provides analysis and detailed maps http://doggerbank.org/prehistoire.html
A Project Group had considered surveys on the Dogger Bank. It sought for several years for a support committee that would guide and fund the fieldwork. All information is visible on the specified site. But nothing has advanced in this project which could start a great period in European archeology.

Roger

=


Some pics I found on the web from Derualle's book:

Edited by Abramelin, 22 March 2010 - 08:43 PM.

[Abramelin]

Sorry, I posted the wrong link to the French PDF file about Jean Deruelle.

Here's the correct one:

http://pagesperso-or..._trampoline.pdf

[Abramelin]

This Jean Deruelle talks about a terrible 'cold spell' that drove the Nordics to the south, but from the next site (if the info there is correct...) I understand that a lot more was going on in Europe back then:

http://www.livingcos...1250-1050BC.htm


"
Elsewhere in Europe

Similar events seem to stretch throughout Europe and into the region of the North Sea. Over 400 pile (lake) dwellings in Europe were overwhelmed so quickly that bronze weapons, jewelry, cooking pots, and other objects of daily use were found in the lake bed. The scene seems to suggest that sudden and simultaneous flood waves occurred in the lakes, and were of the kind that only occur after the most violent earthquakes.

One geologist found many places from North Jutland to Dithmarschen, in the area of the North Sea, with traces of a great flood that overwhelmed islands and coastal lands: "If we compare the results of these observations, we have to conclude that a flood coming from the west once broke over these coasts, far surpassing in height and extent any other known to history." As a result, a village now rests five meters (16.5 feet) below the surface of Lake Bolsena. Italian Department of Antiquities authorities say that it was smashed by a severe earthquake that caused a violent "tidal" wave to wash over the village, leaving only the walls of the huts. Its full extent is suggested by the Umbrians' history, who are not native to Italy, but legend says that they were driven from their homeland by a terrible flood. These are but a few examples of civilizations dissolved away as a result of floods and gargantuan earthquakes, which seem to dominate the scene of this time period.

The island of Cyprus in the Mediterranean has its own story to tell, which has been revealed by the layers of its archeological remains. Citium, an inner harbor, was struck by an earthquake that led to the silting up of the river. Salamis, now a forest of Mimosas and Eucalyptus, was moved to the north after its harbor became silted up due to a disaster that struck its neighbor, Enkomi. An earthquake evidently hit Enkomi, though some attribute its waste to the Sea People.

The north of Europe was densely populated before this period of upheaval began. However, it lost most of its population in the 13th Century BC. The archeological evidence indicates an almost total lack of finds on the Danish islands and the Scandinavian mainland. Furthermore, this situation lasts for 350 years, and was the result of widespread forces unleashed against civilization. Archeologists and historians see the events culminating in a mass migration away from the region.

Geologists' observations in a number of areas indicate that a huge wave overcame Europe. The West Coast of Germany was flooded by such an enormous wave that banks of silt were created that today stretch 25 kilometers (15.5 miles) and up to 10 meters high (35 feet), even after more than 3,000 years of weathering. On the south coast of the North Sea another excavation disclosed what remained of a "catastrophe of annihilating force": "With all its violent power, the North Sea [struck so hard] that trees were laid flat by the first rush of the water. The tops of these uprooted trees always point to the east, which supports the assumption that the catastrophe was caused by a storm from the west."

Also about 2.5 meters (8.2 feet) below the waves near the island of Memmert, ancient dryland was discovered. There, underwater, and in addition to other things, "the hoof marks of cattle and horses were also visible and wagon tracks [were] clearly marked in the soil." Certainly, these had been covered quickly or they would not have lasted, which suggests more than merely "a storm." This event was one of the factors that sent masses of people (including the Sea People) migrating, or more accurately, fleeing for their lives. The story throughout the remainder of Europe is all too familiar when compared with the evidence from elsewhere. In Hungary the existing population either completely died out or moved to some unknown location(s), leaving the area behind for the fundamental, even ethnic changes that occurred with the newcomers, the Urnfield culture. Etna, a volcano in Northeastern Sicily, erupted three times during this period. Thapsos, a promontory, once an island near Syracuse in Sicily, has virtually nothing left of the village that was brought to ruin there. In Central Europe the Tumulus culture, too, filled the pages of its final chapter. The last remains of Stonehenge, enfeebled by the previous cycle, was no match for what this cycle brought upon them, as they passed from history. Spain, France, Portugal and a number of islands were not immune, as elsewhere, to the necessity of wildlife's reestablishment.

And it appears to me that this is some other 'flood', not the one that destroyed Doggerland in 6100 BC.
It must have happened much more recently, like around 1300 BC.

Was that the true "Cymbrian Flood"? For it is said that there was a Cymbrian flood, but it happened around 3-400 BC (Denmark).


Btw, I am trying to look into this just because what happened at this time is of importance for the theory of of Jean Deruelle, but it's interesting in itself, and may deserve it's own thread.

Edited by Abramelin, 23 March 2010 - 05:17 PM.

[Wyrdlight]

Abramelin, on 05 October 2009 - 06:16 PM, said:

Britain's Drowned World (and why the hell do the Brittish claim this land as theirs??):

I am afraid that many brits never got over losing the Empire.  The Age of Empire and all it represents still has alot of resonence with many Brits to this day.  We owned almost everything and so many people tend to think we have the right of owenership over places.

[Abramelin]

Wyrdlight, on 23 March 2010 - 10:17 PM, said:

I am afraid that many brits never got over losing the Empire.  The Age of Empire and all it represents still has alot of resonence with many Brits to this day.  We owned almost everything and so many people tend to think we have the right of owenership over places.

They may be descendants of the refugees from Doggerland, but there were Doggerlanders who must have fled to Norway, Holland and Denmark too.

Well, let's wait untill the next ice age, and see who will claim the then above sea level bottom of the present North Sea, LOL.

[Abramelin]

I checked Robert Graves "The White Goddess", but I couldn't find anything in his book about Doggers Bank, or Atlantis being situated in the North Sea.

But I found something else instead:

Tethra, "The White Goddess", Robert Graves, 1981 edition, paperback edition, Faber and Faber Limited, London.


page 93 :

"Lochlann was the mythical undersea home of the later Fomorian invaders of Ireland, against whom the Tuatha de Danaan fought a bloody war. The god Tethra ruled it."

page 206 :

"Tethra was the king of the Undersea-land from which the People of the Sea were supposed to have originated. He is perhaps a masculinization of Tethys, the Pelasgian Sea-goddess, also known as Thetis, whom, Doge-like, Peleus the Achaean married at Iolcus in Thessaly. The Sidhe are now popularly regarded as fairies: but in early Irish poetry they appear as a real people - a highly cultured and dwindling nation of warriors and poets living in the raths, or around stocked forts, of which New Grange on the Boyne is the most celibrated.  All had blue eyes, pale face and long curly yellow hair. The men carried white shields, and were organized in military companies of fifty. They were ruled over by two virgin-born kings and were sexually promiscuous but 'without blame or shame'. They were, in fact, Picts (tattoed men)......(...)"

And from some other passages in his book I gather that Tethra was also associated with cattle.

[SlimJim22]

Abramelin, on 23 March 2010 - 10:38 PM, said:

I checked Robert Graves "The White Goddess", but I couldn't find anything in his book about Doggers Bank, or Atlantis being situated in the North Sea.

But I found something else instead:

Tethra, "The White Goddess", Robert Graves, 1981 edition, paperback edition, Faber and Faber Limited, London.


page 93 :

"Lochlann was the mythical undersea home of the later Fomorian invaders of Ireland, against whom the Tuatha de Danaan fought a bloody war. The god Tethra ruled it."

page 206 :

"Tethra was the king of the Undersea-land from which the People of the Sea were supposed to have originated. He is perhaps a masculinization of Tethys, the Pelasgian Sea-goddess, also known as Thetis, whom, Doge-like, Peleus the Achaean married at Iolcus in Thessaly. The Sidhe are now popularly regarded as fairies: but in early Irish poetry they appear as a real people - a highly cultured and dwindling nation of warriors and poets living in the raths, or around stocked forts, of which New Grange on the Boyne is the most celibrated.  All had blue eyes, pale face and long curly yellow hair. The men carried white shields, and were organized in military companies of fifty. They were ruled over by two virgin-born kings and were sexually promiscuous but 'without blame or shame'. They were, in fact, Picts (tattoed men)......(...)"

And from some other passages in his book I gather that Tethra was also associated with cattle.

Sidhe is very much like the Indian Sidhu. Fomorians could well be Gomorians. De Vere makes a connection between pharoahs and faeries but I'm not sure about that one, though you never know. They were all tomb kings.

What about Fir Bolg? Men with bags I read. Remember the Gobeleki Tepe little baskets/bags. Any connection?

[Abramelin]

SlimJim22, on 23 March 2010 - 11:05 PM, said:

Sidhe is very much like the Indian Sidhu. Fomorians could well be Gomorians. De Vere makes a connection between pharoahs and faeries but I'm not sure about that one, though you never know. They were all tomb kings.

What about Fir Bolg? Men with bags I read. Remember the Gobeleki Tepe little baskets/bags. Any connection?

Jim, you can't just say one is the other because their names are written similar; btw, the Irish Sidhe is pronounced like 'shee'.

In English 'lul' means something like 'to calm down' or 'relax' or something. In Dutch 'lul' means that appendix between your legs if you are a man. And I remember Lulu was Sumerian for 'people'.

In short, the Lulu/Lull are an ancient tribe of lazy d***heads, hahahaha!! And I will bet a De Vere will agree with that, heh.

[SlimJim22]

Abramelin, on 24 March 2010 - 12:51 AM, said:

Jim, you can't just say one is the other because their names are written similar; btw, the Irish Sidhe is pronounced like 'shee'.

In English 'lul' means something like 'to calm down' or 'relax' or something. In Dutch 'lul' means that appendix between your legs if you are a man. And I remember Lulu was Sumerian for 'people'.

In short, the Lulu/Lull are an ancient tribe of lazy d***heads, hahahaha!! And I will bet a De Vere will agree with that, heh.

I like that, no wonder the ziggurats were never finished (I know they were). In comparing and contrasting hindus with celts/druids we get bit of a problem because both cultures believed in cremation, the druids would just bury the dead for ten years before cremating the ahses. Either way there is little archeological evidence so next best thing could be language. Yeah, it was pronounced shee but De Vere does explain that I am sure. Will need to reread it and can't be a***d.

If i was a Doggerland migrant I'd set up a little place in Finland because it geogrpahically most resembled a land of lakes

[Abramelin]

SlimJim22, on 24 March 2010 - 09:59 AM, said:

I like that, no wonder the ziggurats were never finished (I know they were). In comparing and contrasting hindus with celts/druids we get bit of a problem because both cultures believed in cremation, the druids would just bury the dead for ten years before cremating the ahses. Either way there is little archeological evidence so next best thing could be language. Yeah, it was pronounced shee but De Vere does explain that I am sure. Will need to reread it and can't be a***d.

If i was a Doggerland migrant I'd set up a little place in Finland because it geogrpahically most resembled a land of lakes

Finland is a possibility of course.


Look at the next map:



Around 10,500 BP (8500 BC) people from Doggerland (here, from eastern Denmark) could have relatively easily sailed far to the east, following the melt water lakes at the borders of the ice sheet covering Scandinavia and Nova Zembla. It's a way to explain why the Maglemosian culture was spread out over an area from Britain to northern Russia.

But another map will show you that Finland and Sweden were still busy rising, caused by the isostatic rebound:



Finland may have been even more swampy and covered with lakes then it is now, and it was still much lower with a lot of risk of flooding.

Like I said, Finland is a possibility of course, but if I would flee my drowning country, I wouldn't go that far to the east: I'd go the the hunting grounds nearby, areas that I would have been very familiar with, like east Britain, Scotland, n/w Germany, Holland, Belgium, Denmark and Norway.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 24 March 2010 - 11:51 AM.

[Abramelin]

For all the Atlantis-addicts around here, here's a site from a Sylvain Tristan who has a theory that says that Atlantis was nothing else than the Megalithic culture in Western Europe, and that it's capital was located on Doggerland, or Dogger Bank to be precise...

http://www.leslignesdor.com/  and click on the button on the left for English.

He uses the theory from the other Frenchman, Deruelle, and combines it with the theory of a Alan Butler about ancient math, astronomy and a grid based on 366 degrees ("Salt Lines' or 'Gold Lines', our longitudes and latitudes).

I have read the whole site, and.... to make his theory fit, he says he's convinced (like Deruelle) that Dogger Island/Bank stayed above sea level a lot longer (according to Deruelle with the use of dykes), that the megalithic structures are older than they are dated now, and thus one preceeded the other close in time, or better, that the megalithic culture spread from Doggerland onwards....oh, and (EDIT)... may have influenced ancient cultures in Greece, Egypt, Sumeria and India.

Somewhere in the first pages of this thread I said it is not very likely that megalithic structures will be found on the bottom of the North Sea, because the last part of Doggerland submerged a few thousand years before the start of the megalithic culture in (western) Europe.

But I  wish I had thought of this before... let Doggerland live a few thousand years longer by adding protective dykes no one has ever seen on the bottom of the North Sea, and/or make the megalithic structures older by saying that their C14 dating is off (yes, C14, even though it's stone; archeologists use organic material found right under those stones).

Nevertheless, another interesting theory about Atlantis (if you forget he had to stretch a few facts...).


.

Edited by Abramelin, 25 March 2010 - 01:36 PM.

[Abramelin]

OK, I will admit: I had a faint hope that this Sylvain Tristan was on to something, even if it wasn't the Atlantis he claimed to have located.

But by Googling a bit further I learned he is one of the co-writers of one of Graham Hancocks book's... and then I found this site: http://www.threesixsix.co.uk/........ jeesh.

My idea: let's wait till some team of archeologists/divers searches the Dogger Bank (the supposed location of the 'capital' of Deruelle/Tristan's 'Atlantis'.).

I think it will be a big disappointment for these guys, but no doubt they will start a new conspiracy theory.

[Abramelin]

Abramelin, on 22 March 2010 - 07:44 PM, said:

On one of the first pages of this thread I said I would already be happy if they found some megalithic structures on the bottom of the present North Sea, and that I was not awaiting an announcement on CNN that they found a couple of pyramids down there..

The problem with the European megalithic structures is that they started building these things from around 4500 BC and onwards, and that is a couple of thousand years after the last part of Doggerland - the Dogger(s) bank - was flushed down the drain by the tsunami caused by the Storegga Slide off the coast of Noway.

But then I remembered that on one of my many Google searches for this topic I found a structure in Denmark - a tumulus? - that dated from 6000 BC, and we now know that that was just a 100 years after Doggerland sank beneath the waves, and could have been built by refugees from Doggerland. That was months ago, and I also remember that when I tried to retrieve that page/image, I failed to find it again.

So, a few days ago I made another attempt to find that structure in Denmark, but ended up with a link to site from a guy who tried to prove that both Homer's Iliad and Plato's Atlantis originated/took place in/around the North Sea.

Well, I guess many of you know that some have tried to prove that Atlantis was in the Baltic (Vinci) or in Ireland/Doggers Bank (Ulf Erlingsson) or around/on Helgoland (Spanuth) or that the Iliad took place in England/North Sea (Iman Wilkins and several others), and you all know that I tried to stay away from "Atlantis" as much as possible.

OK, but with that Google search, I hit upon this site ( http://www.nwepexplo.../megaliths.html ) by a "Guy Gervis", who situated Homer's Iliad and Plato's Atlantis in and around the North Sea; he even has a name for Doggerland:  "Lacuna" (which means nothing more or less than 'gap', or 'hole'). Well, he admitted to have been inspired by the ones I mentioned, but he also wrote about a few other people I never heard of, and so I Googled again.

One of the people he mentioned was Robert Graves, and he said that this philosopher/poet assumed that the Dogger Bank was the place of Atlantis (the City). Hmmm... I couldn't find anything about Graves and his ideas about Atlantis being situated in the North Sea ( I do have his "The White Goddess", but I didn't check it for any mentioning of the Atlantis myth. I will, believe me...).

Then there's this another name that Gervis talked about, Jean Deruelle, and his book "De la préhistoire à l'Atlantide des megaliths'.

That got me a bit further.......

I found a PFD file, in French, that had sort of a summary of Deruelle's theory:

http://artslivres.co...icle.php?ld=535, "13 HIS Atlantide (2009_12_10) trampoline".


and so on. I', not going to copy the whole post here, just scroll up to read it.

THIS is what Robert Graves actually wrote about Dogger Bank in his "Greek Myths":

From Robert Graves' "The Greek Myths" (1955, revised 1960, available online on Scribd.com):


3. Plato’s story is confused by his account of the vast numbers of elephants in Atlantis,
which may refer to the heavy import of Greece by way of Pharos, but as perhaps been
borrowed from the elder legend. The whereabouts of the folk-tale Atlantis has been the
subject of numerous theories, though Plato’s influence has naturally concentrated popular
attention on the Atlantic Ocean. Until recently, the Atlantic Ridge (stretching from Iceland to
the Azores and then bending southeastward to Ascension Island and Tristan da Cunha) was
supposed to be its remains; but oceanographic surveys show that apart from these peaks the
entire ridge has been under water for at least sixty million years. Only one large inhabited
island in the Atlantic is known to have disappeared: the plateau now called the Dogger Bank.
But the bones and implements hauled up in cod-nets show that this disaster occurred in
Paleolithic times; and it is far less likely that the news of its disappearance reached Europe
from survivors who drifted across the intervening waste of waters than that the memory of a
different catastrophe was brought to the Atlantic seaboard by the highly civilized Neolithic
immigrants from Libya, usually known as the passage-grave builders.

Just to show you how 'Atlantic-addicts turn and twist the words of others to make their claim of finding Atlantis seem real: Graves did NOT say Atlantis was located in the North Sea.

[The Puzzler]

Guy Gervis has a name for Doggerland Lacuna - this may seem to come from no where but the 13th Zodiac sign (Ophiuchus)of the serpent holder is sometimes known as Laocoon, the man who was responsible for tricking the Trojans, a bit of a traitor. There is something in that but I won't go that track. Gap or hole, have you seen this constellation? Looks like a big box...I will check out Guy Gervis theory.

Edited by The Puzzler, 26 March 2010 - 03:12 AM.