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Drones and ExtraJudicial Killings

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#61    ranrod

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 12:42 AM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 09 June 2012 - 06:11 PM, said:

Yes, Bush lied.  And so did nearly everybody on his various staffs, at least the chiefs of staff.  Look what they did to Valerie Plame.

They were pathological liars, and they don't have the market cornered in that regard.
Is there a chance we're confusing intent with incompetence?  The US has great intelligence but it's not infallible.  I think a lot of cases where people think the government is evil is actually cases where the government is incompetent.  I don't know if the War on Iraq would fall in that category though.


#62    Babe Ruth

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 06:26 PM

No, I'm too cynical to accept incompetence.  Somebody bought options on airlines prior to 911, and all that means is that somebody in the CIA knew what was going to happen.

Incompetence is not a valid assumption, all things considered.  Through the history of mankind, time and again government has demonstrated how it becomes corrupt.  Sad to report, it's normal behavior for huge bureaucracies.

And part of the reason I'm cynical is that I found out first hand in 1970 that the CIA was in the dope business in southeast asia.


#63    Uncle Sam

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:57 PM

I do understand the concept of the drones being disconnected from reality, because it is much like video games you play on computer with joysticks. You sit there and kill targets onscreen without having to actually physically pull the trigger. The only difference between drones and missiles is the fact you can able to switch targets on the fly before launching the missile attached to the drone. The technology of drones needs to be more redefined and more limits attached to them, because they can be used constantly without the danger of dying. Definitely can understand the dangers of using drones, feeling like your superior than those that are in the line of your fire. All it could take is a single person who gets a hold of the most advance drones with multiple missiles, that could be tipped with nuclear tips to launch a devastated attack against populations without the knowledge of the government start an nuclear war. Heck it wouldn't even take a nuclear tipped drone to start an war, a drone with multiple missiles can do the trick.

Bottom line, drones are a double edge sword. On one hand they cost less and no danger to the soldier controlling it, but also means it could lead to detachment of reality and the danger of being used by a radical individual to go on a rampage without the knowledge of the government. Most wars of the past was started over a trivial issue like this...

A man's ethical behaviour should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death. - Albert Einstein

#64    ranrod

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 03:52 AM

View PostUncle Sam, on 10 June 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

I do understand the concept of the drones being disconnected from reality, because it is much like video games you play on computer with joysticks. You sit there and kill targets onscreen without having to actually physically pull the trigger. The only difference between drones and missiles is the fact you can able to switch targets on the fly before launching the missile attached to the drone. The technology of drones needs to be more redefined and more limits attached to them, because they can be used constantly without the danger of dying. Definitely can understand the dangers of using drones, feeling like your superior than those that are in the line of your fire. All it could take is a single person who gets a hold of the most advance drones with multiple missiles, that could be tipped with nuclear tips to launch a devastated attack against populations without the knowledge of the government start an nuclear war. Heck it wouldn't even take a nuclear tipped drone to start an war, a drone with multiple missiles can do the trick.

Bottom line, drones are a double edge sword. On one hand they cost less and no danger to the soldier controlling it, but also means it could lead to detachment of reality and the danger of being used by a radical individual to go on a rampage without the knowledge of the government. Most wars of the past was started over a trivial issue like this...

I disagree with the radical individual argument.  A guy in the cockpit of a real plane can do whatever he wants, but the guy operating an UAV is in a supervised station and can be removed from the controls.  Much more safe than traditional methods from that point of view.

I also disagree that our greater ability to do combat more safely and precisely is a detriment to us.  We can argue about how the US uses it's resources, but in a war zone I want my side to have all the advantages they can have.


#65    Babe Ruth

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 01:33 PM

I wonder what will happen when they declare CONUS to be a theater in the Global War On Terror Zone?

They already have 1 or 2 regiments of US Army designated a role in that scenario.

Hot damn!  Firing on american terrorists on american soil would be more fun than a barrel of monkeys, eh?


#66    Charlie Prime

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 02:54 PM

View Postand then, on 04 June 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

I've sensed real animosity against the US for using these aircraft to kill combatants as well as "suspected" combatants.

It's true that decent people are angry because droning is so immoral and hypocritical.

It would be nice to live in a world without hypocracy and immorallity.  Although that will never be completely acheived, we could certainly get a lot closer.  I think working toward it is a worthwhile endeavor.

Edited by Charlie Prime, 11 June 2012 - 02:55 PM.


#67    OverSword

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 03:42 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 10 June 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

No, I'm too cynical to accept incompetence.  Somebody bought options on airlines prior to 911, and all that means is that somebody in the CIA knew what was going to happen.

Incompetence is not a valid assumption, all things considered.  Through the history of mankind, time and again government has demonstrated how it becomes corrupt.  Sad to report, it's normal behavior for huge bureaucracies.

And part of the reason I'm cynical is that I found out first hand in 1970 that the CIA was in the dope business in southeast asia.

And let's just keep in mind that Afghanistan is the number one opium producer in the world.  And just who is it that runs all of these drone strikes??  Well if you can believe the papers it's none other than the CIA.


#68    Babe Ruth

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 09:22 PM

Homeland Battlefield Act is apparently one of the names they call the NDAA amendment.

Yeppir, using drones to shoot up american 'terrists' on american soil.  Ain't it great AND THEN?


#69    ranrod

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 12:49 AM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 11 June 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

I wonder what will happen when they declare CONUS to be a theater in the Global War On Terror Zone?

They already have 1 or 2 regiments of US Army designated a role in that scenario.

Hot damn!  Firing on american terrorists on american soil would be more fun than a barrel of monkeys, eh?
I don't see how firing on american terrorists on american soil will ever happen.  Don't they just get arrested?  Raided by the ATF or something?  Now a US territory outside of CONUS, I can see.  The US congress has twice used the military (in the form of national guard) to quell violence in Puerto Rico; which included armored helicopters, heavy armored vehicles, and tons of troops.


#70    Babe Ruth

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 01:21 PM

ranrod

The first time US troops fired on US citizens (terrists, if you will) was back in the 20's with the old Brown Shoe Army guys who wanted the money the government had promised them.

Then Kent State, and then a variety of incidents in the name of the War On Drugs.

As long as the public accepts the sophistry of the GWOT, and the various assassinations affiliated with it, it is just a matter of time before assassinations will be performed by drone on US soil.

I plead guilty to being a cynical b******, but that does not make me wrong.  I hope I am wrong, I really do.


#71    OverSword

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 02:37 PM

You're not.


#72    Bama13

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 03:44 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 11 June 2012 - 09:22 PM, said:

Homeland Battlefield Act is apparently one of the names they call the NDAA amendment.

Yeppir, using drones to shoot up american 'terrists' on american soil.  Ain't it great AND THEN?

As opposed to using manned planes to shoot up American "terrorists" on American soil? Am I missing something here?

" Mighty little force is needed to control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything —you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him" - Robert Heinlein

#73    OverSword

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 04:45 PM

View PostBama13, on 12 June 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

As opposed to using manned planes to shoot up American "terrorists" on American soil? Am I missing something here?
Ignorant a little?

Since terrorism is a crime, suspected terrorists in the USA should be arrested and charged with a crime.  Not assasinated by high flying drones along with anyone else that happens to be in thier home.

Edited by OverSword, 12 June 2012 - 05:15 PM.


#74    Babe Ruth

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 07:14 PM

View PostBama13, on 12 June 2012 - 03:44 PM, said:

As opposed to using manned planes to shoot up American "terrorists" on American soil? Am I missing something here?

I'm not quite sure of the point you're trying to make, but you raise an interesting point.

I don't see any substantive difference between assassination by sniper, by drone, or by F-16.  They are all assassination.

It does seem the drone tends to depersonalize the event, fwiw.


#75    OverSword

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Posted 12 June 2012 - 08:36 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 12 June 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

I'm not quite sure of the point you're trying to make, but you raise an interesting point.

I don't see any substantive difference between assassination by sniper, by drone, or by F-16.  They are all assassination.

It does seem the drone tends to depersonalize the event, fwiw.

Babe, I believe what he is saying that it's fine with him if the government uses drones to kill suspected American terrorists on American soil.






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