Roswell was Soviet plot to create US panic

[psyche101]

Wait... Hold on here. I wasn't being general! I was talking specifically about Marcel trying to convince Newton in front of the Press on July 8th, 1947. Then I said (as far as we know) he didn't say a damn word about it again to anyone until the mid-to-late 1970's. This discussion of references to Roswell before then have nothing to do with the FACT that Marcel didn't mention it all those years.

My bad Mate, I did not realise you were specifically speaking of Marcel. Looking back, I feel it was the following post about the Look articles that threw me out there. Sky has a way of sterring a conversation in the direction he wants it to go.

Right, while being circumstantial like many other things it totally fits with my hypothesis. The debris in Ramey's office was absolutely a torn up RAWIN target yet Marcel was trying to convince Newton this was real Alien Spacecraft debris in front of the Press 'hoard' that was gathered, yet we hear nothing more about it until the late mid-seventies. This is very strange behavior but in the context of my hypothesis it makes sense considering that the Press was present and my hypothesis states the whole operation was directed towards the Press.

And reading your quote back, yes indeed you did say Marcel specifically. I had let myself be drawn into Skys old argument again, and even though I am sure this is his catalyst, he has no basis for the current debate. Sorry about that.

It would seem that nobody in this thread said at all that the Roswell incident was not mentioned at all before 1979, excepting Sky in his furious defence of the 3 or 4 references he was able to find. Seems it was a wasted effort all along there to even provide the references.

Edited June 22, 2011 by psyche101

[lost_shaman]

Seems it was a wasted effort all along there to even provide the references.

No, his arguement certainly doesn't address anything I was saying does it?

[psyche101]

No, his arguement certainly doesn't address anything I was saying does it?

Not at all, the blame is mine for being sucked into another one of his Roswell arguments. Really, I should know better. My apologies for incriminating you.

[lost_shaman]

Not at all, the blame is mine for being sucked into another one of his Roswell arguments. Really, I should know better. My apologies for incriminating you.

Nonsense, the fault is Sky's. He makes the same arguements to fence posts (when he's alone w/ Fence posts) despite what I say! You know that.

[lost_shaman]

No, his arguement certainly doesn't address anything I was saying does it?

At any rate, I thought the point I was making about Marcel was quite succinct in that his arguement with Newton in front of the Press gathered at Ramey's office fits really well with my Co-Intel hypothesis.

[skyeagle409]

<BR>My bad Mate, I did not realise you were specifically speaking of Marcel. Looking back, I feel it was the following post about the Look articles that threw me out there. Sky has a way of sterring a conversation in the direction he wants it to go.

The article is from 1967, and the photo is of Newton in Ramey's office. Read the LOOK article, and you will see that it pertains to the Roswell incident and then, check the date of that publication.

Edited June 22, 2011 by skyeagle409

[lost_shaman]

The article is from 1967, and the photo is of Newton in Ramey's office. Read the LOOK article, and you will see that it pertains to the Roswell incident and then, check the date of that publication.

What does that have to do with Marcel not saying anything all those years Sky? Nothing. That was the point.

[skyeagle409]

Can anyone point out to me where Cz said Roswell was not in the book? Sky seems to think otherwise

I think that you misunderstood me.

I wanted Cz to tell us all, if Roswell was highlighted in yellow in that book, and then, note the date of that book, because I have said that Roswell came up before the 1970s and the facts clearly show that I am correct. Frankly, i don't know why are got an argument out of it.

[Czero 101]

I wanted Cz to tell us all, if Roswell was highlighted in yellow in that book,

I said it right here in my original post, Sky...

The quote does appear on page 76 as referenced. I searched for "rancher" and found it right away. The Google search probably can't find "Roswell" since the word gets hyphenated to "Ros-well" due it "wrapping" to the next line of text.

I'm not sure why you feel the need for me to repeat myself. Nobody else wanted me to repost what I had already posted quite clearly.

and then, note the date of that book, because I have said that Roswell came up before the 1970s and the facts clearly show that I am correct.

As it turns out, you were yet again arguing for something that wasn't even in question. Perhaps if you took more time reading people's posts and posted correct sources, these things wouldn't happen as often as they seem to with your posts.

Frankly, i don't know why are got an argument out of it.

See above.

Cz

[psyche101]

Nonsense, the fault is Sky's. He makes the same arguements to fence posts (when he's alone w/ Fence posts) despite what I say! You know that.

I certainly should indeed!

Thank you mate.

[psyche101]

The article is from 1967, and the photo is of Newton in Ramey's office. Read the LOOK article, and you will see that it pertains to the Roswell incident and then, check the date of that publication.

All that happened here is you managed to draw me into an old argument that was not presented here. I should not have so much as responded, but the last few posts explain exactly what is going on, and considering that, I have no idea why you are putting up Roswell references.

I think that you misunderstood me.

I wanted Cz to tell us all, if Roswell was highlighted in yellow in that book, and then, note the date of that book, because I have said that Roswell came up before the 1970s and the facts clearly show that I am correct. Frankly, i don't know why are got an argument out of it.

Well you have the answer now. He did say so from the very beginning. He showed us how to search for it as it was hyphenated. Another poster siad they could not find the word Roswell in the book, Cz helped him.

Edited June 22, 2011 by psyche101

[lost_shaman]

I have said that Roswell came up before the 1970s and the facts clearly show that I am correct.

That was never a point of contention. I was talking specifically about Marcel NEVER saying anything about it agian until the late 1970's. Have you addressed that point at all?

No, you haven't.

[skyeagle409]

I did not say it was not brought up, I said it was rarely brought up. Have done so many times, and you have posted the look articles many times. Now you include a novel.

Any reference to Aliens in the magazines?

Considering that we didn't have flying saucers in 1947, you can make the judgement call.

[skyeagle409]

That was never a point of contention. I was talking specifically about Marcel NEVER saying anything about it agian until the late 1970's. Have you addressed that point at all?

What many people didn't know, was that Marcel was part of the Roswell cover-up.

[Czero 101]

What many people didn't know, was that Marcel was part of the Roswell cover-up.

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, I believe LS proposed such a thing as part of his CI operation theory...

Cz

[skyeagle409]

I said it right here in my original post, Sky...

Cz

All I wanted you to do was to confirm to everyone in this thread that Roswell was brought up before the 1970s. I should have also mentioned that Roswell was also brought up in 1952. You will know when you get to Roswell in the following article..

*********************************************************************************************

"The Flying Saucers and the Mysterious Little Men"

by J. P. Cahn, True magazine, September 1952

My link

**********************************************************************************************

There are other publicatons from the 1950s and 1960s that also covers the Roswell incident. In addition, the 509th Bomber Group is not an organization to conduct a counter-intelligence operation on UFOs, balloons, etc., because of its unique position as the world's only nuclear capable bomber group. Take a look at this headline. What can you deceipher from that headline and taking into consideration the mission of the 509th Bomber Group.

If you served in theStrategic Air Command, ( SAC), you would know the significance of the following news headline.

And the significance of this news headline.

My link

And, the significance of Colonel Blanchard's career in regards to those two news headlines in 1947.

Colonel William Blanchard

In the climaxing phase of World War II, then Colonel Blanchard was directed to prepare and supervise the detailed operations order for the delivery of the first atomic bomb on Hiroshima. He was the backup pilot for the Hiroshima A-bomb drop, which was ultimately delivered by Colonel Paul W. Tibbets, Commanding Officer of the 509th Atomic Bombardment Group or Wing.

After the war, on January 20, 1946, Blanchard became Commanding Officer of the 509th, succeeding Tibbetts. By this time, post-war demobilization had reduced the 509th to a skeleton crew. But Blanchard and the 509th were immediately ordered to commence operations for the "Operation Crossroads" atomic tests at Bikini atoll. With highest priorities, crews were assembled and in March the 509th was transferred to Kwajalein, Marshall Islands for the Bikini atomic bomb tests, that ultimately took place that July.

<DIV class="thumb tleft"><DIV style="WIDTH: 172px" class=thumbinner> <DIV class=thumbcaption><DIV class=magnify>flying saucer" from a nearby ranch, it had been found "sometime last week," and they were flying it to "higher headquarters". The press release and the media feeding frenzy that followed it triggered the so-called Roswell UFO Incident. Higher headquarters turned out to be Brigadier General Roger Ramey, head of the Eighth Army Air Force in Fort Worth, Texas, who quickly pronounced it a misidentified weather balloon. Ironically, Blanchard's press release and the Roswell Incident it triggered are perhaps what Blanchard became best known for by the public at large decades later when the event was reopened and investigated, with many books written. (see also Walter Haut, Blanchard's public information officer, who put out the press release)</P>A year later, in 1948, Blanchard was assigned to Strategic Air Command's Eighth Air Force Headquarters in Fort Worth as director of operations. Blanchard helped direct the atomic training of crews for B-36s, the United States' first intercontinental bombers. After commanding B-50 and B-36 bomber units of SAC, he was assigned as deputy director of operations for that command in 1953.

In June 1956, he was a member of a group of U.S. Air Force officers who accompanied General Nathan Twining, then chief of staff of the U.S. Air Force, on an official visit to the Soviet Union which included a conducted tour of points of military interest in the Moscow and Stalingrad areas.

General Blanchard assumed command of SAC's 7th Air Division in England in 1957. Returning to SAC headquarters three years later, he was assigned as director of operations.

After 15 years of continuous service in SAC, he was appointed the inspector general, U.S. Air Force, and was promoted to the rank of lieutenant general. In August 1963 he was named deputy chief of staff, programs and requirements in Headquarters U.S. Air Force, and assumed the duty as deputy chief of staff, plans and operations, in February 1964. He was assigned the additional duty as senior Air Force member, Military Staff Committee of the United Nations, later that year.

On February 19, 1965, General Blanchard became Vice Chief of Staff of the U.S. Air Force, with promotion to four-star rank. He died May 31, 1966 while still on active duty. He was buried at the United States Air Force Academy Cemetery. There is a building at Bolling Air Force Base named in his honor.

My link

If you served in the U.S. military, Blanchard's flourishing military career after the Roswell incident should have told you that senior military officials didn't see the original Roswell news headline as a mistake on his part. In other words, the original news headline is exactly what was recovered. Had Blanchard truly mistaken balsa wood and tin foil as a flying saucer, he would have been removed from his position as commander, and his career would have suffered, but as it was, his career flourished, which tells the real story of what were recovered,.

The reason why I am handing out these little hints, is my own experience within the Air Force on public relations and its cover-ups, and from my first hand experience as well on an Air Force cover-up, which is why I have stated for the record that the original Roswell news headline was actually the news headline of the century.

Edited June 22, 2011 by skyeagle409

[Czero 101]

All I wanted you to do was to confirm to everyone in this thread that Roswell was brought up before the 1970s.

Then why not simply quote my post where my words were "written in stone" as it were...?

ETA...

But wait... you did quote my post in your post #341 back on page 23... and after quoting it you took the dramatic route of asking me to confirm what you had posted...

Why is that, Sky? Why the need for all the dramatics?

Cz

Edited June 22, 2011 by Czero 101

[lost_shaman]

All I wanted you to do was to confirm to everyone in this thread that Roswell was brought up before the 1970s.

Why? No one argued it didn't you just brought it up randomly after I said Marcel didn't say anything until the late 1970's.

[lost_shaman]

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, I believe LS proposed such a thing as part of his CI operation theory...

Cz

I did. Although that's not a central point, I have suggested it. Judging by the lack of coherent arguement against it I feel a bit disappointed.

[quillius]

Hi Quillius

It would be prudent to do a quick search on the BE threads. This is an argument that has been brought up many times before. Lost Shaman may have been a little general in his wording this time around is all. Yes, The Roswell Incident received a smattering of exposure. You could count the times it came up over the space of 30 years on your fingers. That is the point. I am quite positive I have said so as well. And those references claim Balloons. Only a fictional novel, which it would be ludicrous to claim was not inspired by Roswell residents, claims something more than balloons. I asked for an Alien reference prior to 1979. One cannot say Roswell was never discussed, the RDR has been displayed more times than I care to mention. I am sorry to see that you think this was a challenge of some sort. Lost Shaman made a comment that Sky took to extremes, fueled by old lost arguments. I really do not care if he posts 9 or 10 references, which would be a struggle, that fact remains that Roswell was by large not discussed for 30 years. Then in 1979 one Stanton Friedman came along and sensationalised the tale, and injected Aliens into the story. If it was that talk of the town, I would expect to easily find in excess of 500 references. That is what Sky originally alluded to. I actually remember saying to him that Roswell was still not as important as he makes out - if I asked ten people in the street who Jesse Marcel was, I doubt I would get a single one who could answer me.

Sky is just trying to turn this onto me and make it personal so that he can in some way claim victory over me. Have you not noticed the unusual amount of attention he gives me? He has been chomping at the bit for ages on that one.

Yet Sky said it was reported, and then gave us a fictional novel! That is not a report. All Cz is doing is illustrating yet more deliberate cherry picking. He has no horse in this race, he is running his own. There are many aspect of this discussion, Cz's point is merely but one of them.

no need to do a search as it is not my point. The point was that Sky was asked to provide references indicating that Roswell was mentioned, he did so, he was not being misleading when doing so, at least not misleading with the reference and snipping it to fit, as it doesnt need to fit he just had to show the word roswell.

However this is now moot as it turns out LS was actually asking a different question regarding Marcel, so it was all a waste of time, maybe Sky is at fault here for not reading the question clearly, but certianly not for being misleading with the book link.

Can I confirm that the question you ask now is, is there any mention of Aliens and Roswell prior to 1970?

and the question from LS, did Marcel mention it ever again until after the 1970's?

correct?

[skyeagle409]

Why? No one argued it didn't you just brought it up randomly after I said Marcel didn't say anything until the late 1970's.

You wrote the following.

Right, while being circumstantial like many other things it totally fits with my hypothesis. The debris in Ramey's office was absolutely a torn up RAWIN target yet Marcel was trying to convince Newton this was real Alien Spacecraft debris in front of the Press 'hoard' that was gathered, yet we hear nothing more about it until the late mid-seventies. This is very strange behavior but in the context of my hypothesis it makes sense considering that the Press was present and my hypothesis states the whole operation was directed towards the Press.

My response was that it was brought up before the 1970s. There have been those who have claimed that nothing came about in regards to the Roswell incident until the late 1970s,. which is incorrect.

Now, Marcel was part of the cover-up and he had no choice in the matter, but to go along with th cover-up, so it shouldn't have been strange to understand since Marcel was still in uniform. Two goals were set in regards to the weather balloon cover story.

1. To cover-up the recoveries

2. To get the press off their backs.

The unique mission and position of the 509th Bomber Group made it highly unlikely that they would have concoct your hypothesis, and its mission was much too important to be simply playing games with the public. The fact that we have the "flying disc" headlines show that the military was very excited, and in fact, so excited that they acted too quickly to understand the possible consequences.

My link

Your hypothesis could have been used at another base where its mission was not as critical, but Dubose, Marcel, Haut, Easley, Exon, and others would have known of a CIC operation and had years to blow the whistle, and yet, right up to their deaths, they said nothing of such an operation as responsible for the Roswell incident.. Marcel was connected to intelligence and could have blown the whistle years later on a CIC operation, but instead, continued to point toward ET, and the fact that Easley became involved with his men, was another example that such an operation was not responsible for the incident and Haut's affidavit pretty much spelled it out that no such operation was responsible for the Roswell incident.

The bottom line is, you don't do anything that is going to seriously jeopardize the mission and if you do, you are going to pay a price, and in the case of Roswell, the military had to scramble for damage control and that is where the weather balloon cover story came in.

Edited June 22, 2011 by skyeagle409

[1963]

You wrote the following.

My response was that it was brought up before the 1970s. There have been those who have claimed that nothing came about in regards to the Roswell incident until the late 1970s,. which is incorrect.

Now, Marcel was part of the cover-up and he had no choice in the matter, but to go along with th cover-up, so it shouldn't have been strange to understand since Marcel was still in uniform. Two goals were set in regards to the weather balloon cover story.

1. To cover-up the recoveries

2. To get the press off their backs.

The unique mission and position of the 509th Bomber Group made it highly unlikely that they would have concoct your hypothesis, and its mission was much too important to be simply playing games with the public. The fact that we have the "flying disc" headlines show that the military was very excited, and in fact, so excited that they acted too quickly to understand the possible consequences.

My link

Your hypothesis could have been used at another base where its mission was not as critical, but Dubose, Marcel, Haut, Easley, Exon, and others would have known of a CIC operation and had years to blow the whistle, and yet, right up to their deaths, they said nothing of such an operation as responsible for the Roswell incident.. Marcel was connected to intelligence and could have blown the whistle years later on a CIC operation, but instead, continued to point toward ET, and the fact that Easley became involved with his men, was another example that such an operation was not responsible for the incident and Haut's affidavit pretty much spelled it out that no such operation was responsible for the Roswell incident.

The bottom line is, you don't do anything that is going to seriously jeopardize the mission and if you do, you are going to pay a price, and in the case of Roswell, the military had to scramble for damage control and that is where the weather balloon cover story came in.

Hi Sky!

I found this interesting link today, that I believe to be a important addition to the Roswell Story.

(Depending on your take on the validity of the article?)

Well, it's an addition to me anyway!...Though there's a good chance that it's already known to you!....

http://www.openminds.tv/roswell-ufo-military-convoy/

The 11th hour testimonies are always a little suspect to me,...but it's just possible?

What do you think? and Do you have any further links to prove/disprove any of this?

Cheers.

Edited June 22, 2011 by 1963

[psyche101]

no need to do a search as it is not my point. The point was that Sky was asked to provide references indicating that Roswell was mentioned, he did so, he was not being misleading when doing so, at least not misleading with the reference and snipping it to fit, as it doesnt need to fit he just had to show the word roswell.

I think the search would have been prudent because you would then have seen a historical record that the point has always been that it was rarely mentioned. Not not mentioned at all. Sky saw an opening and ran with it. That is all, and it was an unfounded assumption. My mistake was falling into a tired old argument, and due to the repetitiveness of old arguments, I was caught of guard. I am not sure who he was trying to prove what to.

However this is now moot as it turns out LS was actually asking a different question regarding Marcel, so it was all a waste of time, maybe Sky is at fault here for not reading the question clearly, but certianly not for being misleading with the book link.

I still do not see a fictional novel as any sort of proof of being "reported" however each to their own.

Can I confirm that the question you ask now is, is there any mention of Aliens and Roswell prior to 1970?

and the question from LS, did Marcel mention it ever again until after the 1970's?

correct?

Aliens - No.

Marcel - No.

And you can extend that date to 1979.

[psyche101]

Hi Sky!

I found this interesting link today, that I believe to be a important addition to the Roswell Story.

(Depending on your take on the validity of the article?)

Well, it's an addition to me anyway!...Though there's a good chance that it's already known to you!....

http://www.openminds.tv/roswell-ufo-military-convoy/

The 11th hour testimonies are always a little suspect to me,...but it's just possible?

What do you think? and Do you have any further links to prove/disprove any of this?

Cheers.

Hey Sky

I would appreciate if you had a close look at this link, and see what the alleged witnesses say about the size of the alleged craft.

Thanks.

[DONTEATUS]

There were lots of Tin Foil laying around in Roswell in those days !

I would have to Say that the Alien Craft was about the Size of a Pie Pan at best. Im still Looking for the String and the Cow`s that pulled off this Great Stunt !