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Bigfoot: real or myth? -- Why? -- Why not?


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#31    psyche101

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 03:48 AM

View PostInsanity, on 09 November 2012 - 01:11 AM, said:

Inconclusive is just that, inconclusive, and does not support or deny anything.

Hair analysis does require samples to compare to, and without a sample to compare another to, it is extremely difficult to come to any conclusion based on hairs.
DNA analysis is not much different, while it is possible to analysis samples and determine if the sample is similar to existing known species, determining the species is difficult, if not impossible, without a sample to compare to.

Hair, DNA, and other sample types might be interesting, but are likely never to be sufficient.  A specimen, live or dead, perhaps even individual pieces of a skeleton, such as a skull, are needed to prove the existence.

Unfortunately, in recent times, many people have portrayed hoaxes for no other reason to gain either money, some fame, or both.
Among the scientific community, there are likely many individuals who could lend more assistance into the investigation, but even in science there are 'acceptable subjects' and boxes, and steeping outside of those can quickly lead to a lost of position in their field.


I do not see how the samples can keep coming up inconclusive. Hundreds claim to have hairs, one UM member claims Henner Fahrenbach sent him one in the mail. The Bili Ape was evaluated as a 5th sub species of chimp from one scat sample.

And if the hairs keep coming up "inconclusive" how is that in any way toed to Bigfoot? Inconclusive mean "I do not have a clue" doesn't it? Why are the inconclusive hairs brought up in support of Bigfoot, when they do not actually support anything? Half of them could be Coconut husk fibres for all we know.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#32    Sakari

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 04:49 AM

psyche101,

Maybe you can help me find this...For the life of me I do not remember where I saw it, but someone, or people in plural had made a " progressive " Bigfoot sightings map through the years.

I have numerous times, tried to find this for several bigfoot topis here.

It starts off in California, where / near the famous " tracks " were made ( to scare off people messing with logging equipment, the start of the Bigfoot legend if you ask me ). It then shows a few through the years, and then a plague of them near the " Patterson film " area after that was released.

It was a video map, not a still. It was like watching a plague go up the coast, and then start east. Pretty convincing to show how a rumor can spread. It was well made, and took a lot of investigating and effort.

I wish I could find it......

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#33    pokingjoker

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 05:33 AM

Sakari you asked for for links to support the fact that stories of bigfoot date back centuries all over the world. well here are a few links i found that support that .




http://www.crystalin...om/bigfoot.html
     a very interesting synopsis of different names and locations with a bit of history.

http://www.mysteriou...ie_stories.html
     australian history of their version

http://school.discov...e_yetimyth.html
     cant get anymore non bfro than discovery lol, with some folklore info on their page.

http://www.cryptomun...ort/k-strain-b/
     yes its a bigfoot site, but the link shows a book written by a bigfooter so her veiw may be a bit biased but she researched and found many stories she put into her book
Giants, Cannibals and Monsters: Bigfoot In Native Culture by Kathy Strain


#34    psyche101

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 06:15 AM

View PostSakari, on 09 November 2012 - 04:49 AM, said:

psyche101,

Maybe you can help me find this...For the life of me I do not remember where I saw it, but someone, or people in plural had made a " progressive " Bigfoot sightings map through the years.

I have numerous times, tried to find this for several bigfoot topis here.

It starts off in California, where / near the famous " tracks " were made ( to scare off people messing with logging equipment, the start of the Bigfoot legend if you ask me ). It then shows a few through the years, and then a plague of them near the " Patterson film " area after that was released.

It was a video map, not a still. It was like watching a plague go up the coast, and then start east. Pretty convincing to show how a rumor can spread. It was well made, and took a lot of investigating and effort.

I wish I could find it......

Hi Sakari

I cannot say I have seen that one, but it sure sounds very interesting. I will have a search as well and see what I can find.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo 'If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.' - Sir Isaac Newton. "Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit." Ed Stewart. Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs. Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Sir Wearer of Hats.


#35    Rlyeh

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:06 AM

View PostInsanity, on 08 November 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

If this were a criminal investigation being discussed, everything you just mentioned would be submittable as evidence, however, it is only after the examination by qualified individuals, who have the proper knowledge, training and experience to examine the type of evidence at hand, can it be determined if the evidence is of sufficient quality to be usable, and if so, what that evidence reveals.
Wait, so shaky footage, some footprints, and hair samples are enough to launch a criminal investigation?


#36    Steve Plambeck

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 09:33 AM

View PostClobhair-cean, on 08 November 2012 - 07:47 AM, said:

Let's compare this with another large ape, the Bili Ape. One researcher went to the Congo in the mid-1990s to investigate native stories about a large ape that's not a chimpanzee or a gorilla. On his first trip, he found a skull and managed to buy perfect quality trail camera photos (This one: http://img180.images...oapenormqi5.jpg compare it with the blobsquatches), take casts of footprints and collect fecal samples. He gathered more evidence in one trip that exists about bigfoot altogether. In 2000, he went back and found ground nests belonging to the animals. After the end of the civil war, yet another trip saw the animals, confirmed them to be an anomalous, isolated population of huge chimpanzees that have been studied ever since. Why was Karl Ammann successful? Because the animals he was looking for were real.

There's an additional finding to the Ammann expeditions that would probably be of interest to Bigfoot researchers.  Recall he couldn't find the Bili Apes themselves on the first two expeditions.  On the third, successful expedition when they met the apes face to face, they went much deeper into the forest than on the previous attempts.  Funny thing is that it turned out those weren't the only Bili Apes, just that the ones furthest from the roads and villages hadn't encountered humans often enough if at all to know they should hide.  The population was actually evenly distributed clear back to the roads and villages, but the ones living closest to human populations had become expert at hiding when people would otherwise spot them.  In other words, the first two expeditions walked right by Bili Apes without seeing them, but they were actually there all the time.  Ammann or one of his expedition did a statistical analysis and came up with an "avoidance index", a numerical measurement of how likely any given Bili was to hide when humans approached, and found it to be a fairly smooth gradient.  Bili's that lived nearest human habitation always hid (and well enough to go unseen by the first two expeditions that looked specifically for them), those deepest in the forest didn't hide at all when researchers approached them, and those living in between varied in how likely they were to hide or not hide by the distance they lived from humans.  Perhaps the lesson here is, if you haven't gone deep enough into the woods to die if something goes wrong, then you probably haven't gone deep enough to find a higher primate that is deliberately avoiding you.  And the Bili Apes prove that higher primates can learn to avoid humans where they are most likely to encounter them.


#37    Neognosis

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 12:16 PM

If you walk through mud or wet earth, and it freezes and thaws, freezes and thaws, freezes and thaws, your prints will expand.

This is likely what is the case when there's a set of big, blobby, footprint-like tracks that are not outright hoaxes.


#38    Clobhair-cean

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 01:20 PM

Just to reply to a few things that haven't been addressed by psyche 101

View PostInsanity, on 08 November 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

If this were a criminal investigation being discussed, everything you just mentioned would be submittable as evidence, however, it is only after the examination by qualified individuals, who have the proper knowledge, training and experience to examine the type of evidence at hand, can it be determined if the evidence is of sufficient quality to be usable, and if so, what that evidence reveals.


But this is not a criminal, but a scientific investigation. That's a big difference. Science needs unambiguous evidence, while law does not necessarily need that. To this day, there has been no unambiguous piece of evidence presented for the existence of bigfoot.


View PostInsanity, on 08 November 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

Ironically, this is an example of a large non-human primate, previously undocumented by science, being recently discovered, is it not?

Absolutely, that was my point. A previously undocumented large primate being easily and, compared to the amount of work that's been done on bigfoot, effortlessly in an environment that is more hostile than anything that exists in North America. It wasn't luck. It was because, as opposed to bigfoot, this animal actually exists and if anyone who knows what they are doing gives it a try, they will find it.

View PostInsanity, on 08 November 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

There are reports of Sasquatch passing in front of vehicles, nearly being hit, and at least two reports of vehicles hitting them.

From the North American Bigfoot Search records.
  • 1996-08-00; FL, Gadsden; road crossing bigfoot hit by state trooper's car and tourists on a bus watch it go into the woods.
  • 1977-08-00; FL, Collier; police car hits a bigfoot, blood, hair found.
While unfortunately no bodies or samples were recovered it seems, these type of accidents have been reported.

Two reports of near-misses. Two. In Yosemite only, 17 bears have been hit in 2012 alone. We are talking about practically a half-century during which no bigfoot was hit and killed by a motor vehicle, as opposed to everything else that lives in the US. Including a guy who was dressed as bigfoot.

I don't believe that if anyone were to run over bigfoot, they wouldn't drag the carcass back to the nearest town and become instantly famous.

View PostInsanity, on 08 November 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

I am not certain what you are trying to say here.

Ecology is a complex network of interactions between species that we understand very well nowadays. If there was a large primate in North America, it would have an effect on its environment (especially since primates eat a lot in general) that would result in a lot of anomalous data without knowing that there is another large animal living in the area in sufficiently high numbers. And primates do eat a lot.

Also, on a slightly related note, primates are not discreet. They are loud, curious and social animals. They are horrible candidates for the role of elusive North American megafauna.

View PostInsanity, on 08 November 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

Contrary to what may be widely believed that everyone owns either a digital camera or some type of mobile device with a built in camera, the fact is, not everyone does.

InfoTrends reported that in 2009, 95% of the cameras purchased were purchased by households that already had one.

Experian reported that in 2011, 227 million people owned a cell phone, but doesn't state if these are devices with cameras or not.  If you want to assume they are, then given that the population of the USA was around 311 million in the middle of 2011, that gives about 73% of people owning a cell phone with a camera at the time.


73% is pretty damn high and I don't see why getting into semantic arguments about "everyone" is relevant. The vast majority of people have cameras or camera phones at hand. And yet, there isn't a single, unambiguous, clear photograph of bigfoot anywhere. We are talking about at least fifty years, in which no-one has been able to photograph an animal in an urbanised, densely populated and technologically advanced country, even though thousands of people have tried.


View PostInsanity, on 08 November 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

Have you made a study of these cultural stories and done comparative research, or at least read any comparative research done by other individuals?

I don't think any such comparative research has been conducted to this day, but based on what the bigfooters themselves are saying, it seems that they are suffering from a case of "liberal interpretation of data" and often committing the mistake of taking folklore as fact, which it isn't.


#39    Quiet Sky1

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 05:06 AM

I'm open to the possibilty that there is a Bigfoot due to numerous sightings reported by people, but at the same time there is no definite proof yet. Many of the sightings could have been misidentification or lying for publicity.  However, there have been some seemingly credible accounts I unfortunately can't recall now.

Edited by Quiet Sky1, 12 November 2012 - 05:10 AM.


#40    keninsc

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 06:55 AM

View PostQuiet Sky1, on 12 November 2012 - 05:06 AM, said:

I'm open to the possibilty that there is a Bigfoot due to numerous sightings reported by people, but at the same time there is no definite proof yet. Many of the sightings could have been misidentification or lying for publicity.  However, there have been some seemingly credible accounts I unfortunately can't recall now.
I agree completely. My own openness to the possibility that they might exist is based on the personal sightings of two guy I knew well enough that I couldn't just blow it off as hysteria or misidentification or just plain BS. I did have one minor experience or i should say possible experience where I encountered a nasty smell while i was deer hunting down in Georgia once. However, I didn't see anything or find any foot prints or even hear anything, just caught wind of a putrid smell as I was sitting in the branches of a fallen tree over looking a deer trail. Smelled like a combination of musk, body odor, wet dog........or maybe a dozen Frenchmen.

Since then I've been more open to the possibility and have found that the vast majority of sightings, videos and pictures can either be faked or are so fuzzy or at such a distance that it could be anything really. However, every so often I read or see an interview with someone that makes me go, "Hmmmm, maybe?"

Please understand that as yet, even with my admitted openness, I've yet to see anything that I can point to and and say, "Yeah, that's the proof right there." And when I look at the evidence as a whole over the years I have to ask myself, "Where is a body? Where's a Skeleton? Where's the evidence of a large primate in North America in the fossil record? Why has no hunter ever shot one?" Let's be real, with all the guys and gals out hunting deer, elk and bear someone should have encountered a Biggy and shot one by now. My openness hasn't stopped me from trying to be objective about what I see on the subject, but it's nice to hear someone else is thinking along the same lines as myself.

Personally, I'd love to have the resources to mount up a real, detailed long term field investigation where a group could set up and make a thorough and detailed investigation in an area that was "hot", meaning with a good many sightings from people who's experiences would tend to be more credible. These guys who get called to go out and take a look from various organizations usually have to worry about making a livings and are only there for a relatively short period of time, usually a day or less.


#41    QuiteContrary

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 04:37 PM

Bigfoot is alive and well, in my imagination. And I am happy to feed him.

Every once in a while I try to starve him out, but I inexplicably can’t ignore the phenomenon. Bigfootry intrigues me.

But as far as bigfoot stepping out of my imagination and into reality? That probability, for me, considering the “evidence” we have, is about zero.

But I’d love to be proven wrong and have a nice long talk with the Big Guy. :nw:

Edited by QuiteContrary, 12 November 2012 - 04:40 PM.

Keep your eyes wide open and don't run!

P.S. Just to be clear, because sometimes I am not. I do not believe...
in the existence of a large previously unknown undiscovered hairy biped roaming North America.
But I like to hear the accounts, read the books, watch the shows, discuss and argue about the phenomenon.

#42    keninsc

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:54 AM

Yeah, me too. One the one hand, I'd like to be able to totally believe they're real, but then on the other hand there is no real evidence and what evidence there is could be faked so easily it's not worth really considering. Then we also have quite a few prankster who've 'fested up they've been doing this sort of thing just for giggles for years.

Who knows, maybe a deer hunter will finally shoot one and provide the world with the hard evidence we all would like to see in order to believe.

Edited by keninsc, 13 November 2012 - 08:54 AM.


#43    Slave2Fate

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:14 AM

View Postkeninsc, on 13 November 2012 - 08:54 AM, said:

Who knows, maybe a deer hunter will finally shoot one and provide the world with the hard evidence we all would like to see in order to believe.

If it hasn't happened yet it probably never will.

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#44    keninsc

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:44 AM

Granted the odds don't favor it, but who knows? The odds of winning the lottery is pretty slim, but people do win it.

I personally think that's going to be what happens, and yes that is making a huge leap of faith that Bigfoots are real, but I figure some good old boy will be sitting out on his deer stand one day not seeing much of anything and all of a sudden a Biggy will pass very close to him and he'll take the shot.

I always talk about the experience of my two friends who claimed to encounter a Bigfoot and both of them were deer hunting at the time...........Soooooooo? There it is.


#45    Slave2Fate

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Posted 14 November 2012 - 12:56 AM

View Postkeninsc, on 14 November 2012 - 12:44 AM, said:

Granted the odds don't favor it, but who knows? The odds of winning the lottery is pretty slim, but people do win it.

I personally think that's going to be what happens, and yes that is making a huge leap of faith that Bigfoots are real, but I figure some good old boy will be sitting out on his deer stand one day not seeing much of anything and all of a sudden a Biggy will pass very close to him and he'll take the shot.

I always talk about the experience of my two friends who claimed to encounter a Bigfoot and both of them were deer hunting at the time...........Soooooooo? There it is.

I merely meant that humans have been hunting since they could first walk. If a Bigfoot hasn't been killed by a human in that entire period of time then modern day hunters wouldn't likely fare any better.

Of course the reason for that is open to interpretation however I tend to think it is because the big guy doesn't exist. :tu:

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