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The Wedding of Jesus


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#196    Jor-el

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 08:03 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 20 July 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

However, you haven't been able to prove or show evidences that the Jewish People as a whole believe in bodily resurrection. If there is any one who does is for lack of Scriptural learning.

I never said as a whole... I always stated that opinions on the matter were always divided into two camps, those who believe in resurrection and those who do not. This is historical and cannot be debated as opinion. The history books show those outlooks as clearly as a bright sunny day without a cloud in sight.

The fact that the 13th principle is clear and unambiguous demonstrates this without a doubt... you have to explain your side of it to get your point across it is not immediately apparent from the text itself. Rather the opposite is true, I dare you to say otherwise.

13. I believe with perfect faith that the dead will be brought back to life when G-d wills it to happen.

If the Jewish people as a whole did not believe in bodily resurrection, then there is no way the 13th principle would be written in this way, never ever....

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#197    Ben Masada

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 05:20 PM

View PostJor-el, on 20 July 2013 - 08:03 PM, said:

I never said as a whole... I always stated that opinions on the matter were always divided into two camps, those who believe in resurrection and those who do not. This is historical and cannot be debated as opinion. The history books show those outlooks as clearly as a bright sunny day without a cloud in sight.

The fact that the 13th principle is clear and unambiguous demonstrates this without a doubt... you have to explain your side of it to get your point across it is not immediately apparent from the text itself. Rather the opposite is true, I dare you to say otherwise.

13. I believe with perfect faith that the dead will be brought back to life when G-d wills it to happen.

If the Jewish people as a whole did not believe in bodily resurrection, then there is no way the 13th principle would be written in this way, never ever....



#198    Ben Masada

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 05:32 PM

View PostJor-el, on 20 July 2013 - 08:03 PM, said:

I never said as a whole... I always stated that opinions on the matter were always divided into two camps, those who believe in resurrection and those who do not. This is historical and cannot be debated as opinion. The history books show those outlooks as clearly as a bright sunny day without a cloud in sight.

The fact that the 13th principle is clear and unambiguous demonstrates this without a doubt... you have to explain your side of it to get your point across it is not immediately apparent from the text itself. Rather the opposite is true, I dare you to say otherwise.

13. I believe with perfect faith that the dead will be brought back to life when G-d wills it to happen.

If the Jewish people as a whole did not believe in bodily resurrection, then there is no way the 13th principle would be written in this way, never ever....

You are right that the 13th principle of the Rambam is quite clear and unambiguous at demonstrating that he is not talking about bodily resurrection for several reasons. First, he was a Jewish man and Jews do not believe in bodily resurrection. He would be contradicting himself. Second, if you read the 12th principle, it talks about the coming or return of the Messiah. Isaiah explains how the Messiah goes into exile and Ezekiel explains how the Messiah returns. If you read Isaiah 53:8,9, when Israel, the Jewish People is forced into exile it is as if they have been cut off from the Land of the Living which is the Land of Israel and graves are assigned to them among the nations. When the exile is over, HaShem opens up those graves and brings them back to the Land of Israel. That's in Ezekiel 37:12. That's the kind of resurrection the Rambam had in mind.


#199    Jor-el

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 05:50 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 25 July 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

You are right that the 13th principle of the Rambam is quite clear and unambiguous at demonstrating that he is not talking about bodily resurrection for several reasons. First, he was a Jewish man and Jews do not believe in bodily resurrection. He would be contradicting himself. Second, if you read the 12th principle, it talks about the coming or return of the Messiah. Isaiah explains how the Messiah goes into exile and Ezekiel explains how the Messiah returns. If you read Isaiah 53:8,9, when Israel, the Jewish People is forced into exile it is as if they have been cut off from the Land of the Living which is the Land of Israel and graves are assigned to them among the nations. When the exile is over, HaShem opens up those graves and brings them back to the Land of Israel. That's in Ezekiel 37:12. That's the kind of resurrection the Rambam had in mind.

Explain that to the many fellow Jews who don't accept your views.... call them heretics or ignorants, but I make my case simple.... look at your explanation and how many lines it took you to describe your position...If what you said were fact instead of merely your position, then the 13th principle would have not been written like it was, it would demonstrate something of your position, instead it blatantly contradicts it.

Live with it. You say a Jew CANNOT believe in resurrection I say, you are incorrect and half of the worlds Jews prove it, since that is exactly what they believe.

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#200    GIDEON MAGE

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 06:51 PM

Most Jews believe in reincarnation (gilgul).

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#201    Jor-el

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 07:14 PM

View PostGIDEON MAGE, on 25 July 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:

Most Jews believe in reincarnation (gilgul).

many Jews do believe in reincarnation Gideon, but can you tell us why?

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#202    Ben Masada

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 07:16 PM

View PostJor-el, on 25 July 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

Explain that to the many fellow Jews who don't accept your views.... call them heretics or ignorants, but I make my case simple.... look at your explanation and how many lines it took you to describe your position...If what you said were fact instead of merely your position, then the 13th principle would have not been written like it was, it would demonstrate something of your position, instead it blatantly contradicts it.

Live with it. You say a Jew CANNOT believe in resurrection I say, you are incorrect and half of the worlds Jews prove it, since that is exactly what they believe.

For heaven's sake Jorel, can't you see how desperate you are trying to bend the rules to push "bodily" resurrection into the 13th principle of faith of the Rambam? Gosh! How hard is to fight blind faith!


#203    Ben Masada

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 07:18 PM

View PostGIDEON MAGE, on 25 July 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:

Most Jews believe in reincarnation (gilgul).

Which according to the Tanach it is also denied. "Wives' tales" are common almost everywhere.


#204    Jor-el

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 10:32 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 25 July 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

For heaven's sake Jorel, can't you see how desperate you are trying to bend the rules to push "bodily" resurrection into the 13th principle of faith of the Rambam? Gosh! How hard is to fight blind faith!

Ben I'm not trying to push anything... do you want me to quote the Talmud and the many other Jewish sources we have on record regarding their views on resurrection?

Just say the word Ben... You my friend are a revisionist. Anything that doesn't agree with you you scrap and reinterpret... Rambam was much the same... that's why his books were burnt as heresy by many Jews themselves...





I'm sure you will say that these men are not real Jews or ignorant Jews, but that will only discredit you.

Edited by Jor-el, 26 July 2013 - 10:34 PM.

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#205    Ben Masada

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 07:13 PM

View PostJor-el, on 26 July 2013 - 10:32 PM, said:

Ben I'm not trying to push anything... do you want me to quote the Talmud and the many other Jewish sources we have on record regarding their views on resurrection?

Just say the word Ben... You my friend are a revisionist. Anything that doesn't agree with you you scrap and reinterpret... Rambam was much the same... that's why his books were burnt as heresy by many Jews themselves...





I'm sure you will say that these men are not real Jews or ignorant Jews, but that will only discredit you.

No, Jorel, you don't have to quote the Talmud. My answer to any quote will be yes even in literal terms if it does not contradict the Scriptures or no if it does. If it contradicts the Scriptures I'll have no choice but to find a metaphorical interpretation to it. By the way, I saw the tapes and although the Rabbi does not make any direct reference to bodily resurrection I cannot deny that he is talking about it. I am appalled that a Jewish Rabbi is unable to apply metaphorical interpretation when the issue calls for it. And the other tape on the bottom is too Christian to my taste. As you can see, Jews are allowed to think differently from each other and still remain at home as long as they don't officially adopt a different faith opposite to Judaism. They are Jews but too gullible all the same. The only thing I have to say about them is that "My People perish for lack of knowledge." (Hos.4:6)

Edited by Ben Masada, 30 July 2013 - 07:15 PM.


#206    Jor-el

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 08:07 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 30 July 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

No, Jorel, you don't have to quote the Talmud. My answer to any quote will be yes even in literal terms if it does not contradict the Scriptures or no if it does. If it contradicts the Scriptures I'll have no choice but to find a metaphorical interpretation to it. By the way, I saw the tapes and although the Rabbi does not make any direct reference to bodily resurrection I cannot deny that he is talking about it. I am appalled that a Jewish Rabbi is unable to apply metaphorical interpretation when the issue calls for it. And the other tape on the bottom is too Christian to my taste. As you can see, Jews are allowed to think differently from each other and still remain at home as long as they don't officially adopt a different faith opposite to Judaism. They are Jews but too gullible all the same. The only thing I have to say about them is that "My People perish for lack of knowledge." (Hos.4:6)

Hi Ben,

Just wanted to thank you for admitting that other Jews do not have to think like you do.

Just a note, that the video you claim to be "too christian" is actually of a Hasidic Jewish Rabbi, called Rabbi Aaron Moss, he belongs to the Chabad-Lubavitch movement in Australia.

The 1st video is of Rabbi Jonathan Hillel Ginsburg better known as the "Youtube Rabbi" for his many videos and he is belongs to the Conservative Movement.

I don't think either one of them is in danger of adopting anything other than Judaism.

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#207    Ben Masada

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 06:07 PM

View PostJor-el, on 30 July 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

Hi Ben,

Just wanted to thank you for admitting that other Jews do not have to think like you do.

Just a note, that the video you claim to be "too christian" is actually of a Hasidic Jewish Rabbi, called Rabbi Aaron Moss, he belongs to the Chabad-Lubavitch movement in Australia.

The 1st video is of Rabbi Jonathan Hillel Ginsburg better known as the "Youtube Rabbi" for his many videos and he is belongs to the Conservative Movement.

I don't think either one of them is in danger of adopting anything other than Judaism.

See what I mean? And you present two point to justify Hosea 4:6 that, "My people perish for lack of knowledge." The first point is the testimony of the Conservative Rabbi. I had a debate with a Conservative Rabbi about "Angels" which he believed in them like Christians do. And he had to stop the debate when I proved to him from the dream of Jacob about the ladder from the earth to the skies that angels are simply emanations and not real beings. And the second point is about the Hasidic Jew whom I charged with being too Christian from the Chabad Movement who decided to nominate a dead man as the Messiah as the Christians did with Jesus.


#208    Jor-el

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 07:02 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 06 August 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

See what I mean? And you present two point to justify Hosea 4:6 that, "My people perish for lack of knowledge." The first point is the testimony of the Conservative Rabbi. I had a debate with a Conservative Rabbi about "Angels" which he believed in them like Christians do. And he had to stop the debate when I proved to him from the dream of Jacob about the ladder from the earth to the skies that angels are simply emanations and not real beings. And the second point is about the Hasidic Jew whom I charged with being too Christian from the Chabad Movement who decided to nominate a dead man as the Messiah as the Christians did with Jesus.

Well Ben, I side with both those Rabbis, because to me you are the one who is not interpreting the bible correctly, they are more correct then you regarding a multitdude of different theological positions, the resurrection is only one of them.

Therefore I do not accept you speaking for other Jews, many of whom know a heck of alot more than you. You can certainly speak for yourself, you can give your opinion and your position, but from where I stand, you don't speak for Judaism, as a matter of fact you are part of a minority, an extremely small one at that.

Edited by Jor-el, 07 August 2013 - 07:05 PM.

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#209    Ben Masada

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 09:21 PM

View PostJor-el, on 07 August 2013 - 07:02 PM, said:

Well Ben, I side with both those Rabbis, because to me you are the one who is not interpreting the bible correctly, they are more correct then you regarding a multitdude of different theological positions, the resurrection is only one of them.

Therefore I do not accept you speaking for other Jews, many of whom know a heck of alot more than you. You can certainly speak for yourself, you can give your opinion and your position, but from where I stand, you don't speak for Judaism, as a matter of fact you are part of a minority, an extremely small one at that.

It is "sexy" to be different.





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