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Sphinx and GP dates from 10 500 BC?


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#781    cormac mac airt

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 06:03 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 27 June 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

Well, you know that I am not a fan of the "historical uniqueness" so I would certainly never claim that a social advance happened "only" within a certain confine or within a certain group but more according to the social needs of multiple groups and on occasion with thousands of years of span in between.

So yes, domestication is certainly not a unique phenomena.

True, but as we both know it has been presented that way in a number of places. Something of which should be set straight for those who don't know.

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#782    lliqerty

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 06:04 PM

View PostOniomancer, on 27 June 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

The wording and framing of the theory and the research and reasoning that went into the theory are two different things. Note that this was based in part on actual observation of the !Kung tribe for one.
You're applying a rather limited set of means for how gobekli tepe could've been accomplished. Your earlier description assumes an all-out, all at once approach,  that they dropped everything and put all their effort into it. We have no evidence for a timeframe over which it must've been constructed and there's no good reason to apply one arbitrarily. It could just as well have been carved and assembled gradually over a long period as time allowed.

Let's look at what we know about these "primitive" groups. When we watch them on that self-same discovery channel, they seem to be spending a lot of time sitting around doing nothing, or engaged in elaborate ceremonies. When we look at prehistoric relics, we see Venus figures, fine bone carvings and caves full of paintings. If they had time to do all that, surely they had time to carve a few monuments.

The definition of a hunter-gather is by no means cut and dried. To add to the previous link: http://www.mesacc.ed...ys/hg_myth.html
I agree with everything you are saying (btw, I very much enjoyed the original Gods Must Be Crazy not only for its humor but also for its insight and the portrayal of this wonderful culture). I was implying in an earlier post that they would have had to build one circle in a season, and go on to the next one maybe a few years later.

But a single person can make a Venus figure and a cave painting, and another one next week. That is hardly comparable with cutting 16 ton blocks (and doing this with stone tools, and a 50 ton incompleted one). How did they lift the weight of 200 men out of the quarry? I have asked specific questions like this before and never gotten a concrete answer. So I surmise that it has not been experimentally confirmed. Maybe you think this is a minor detail. I do not think so. Why is it so difficult to round up enough, say, college students for a shcool project? Once it has been done, then we have an idea about the effort required, in terms of manpower, organization etc. But the fact that it has NOT been done indicates to me that it is a substantial effort, maybe more than you imagine.

Only then can we determine if this is even possible. Then we can talk about what qualities or culture the people must have had to manage that accomplishment. Without experiment or observation of the challenge that this represents, what do you expect to learn from talking about the !Kung tribe? I am sorry to repeat myself, but science is observation.


#783    jules99

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 10:52 PM

View Postlliqerty, on 27 June 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

I agree with everything you are saying (btw, I very much enjoyed the original Gods Must Be Crazy not only for its humor but also for its insight and the portrayal of this wonderful culture). I was implying in an earlier post that they would have had to build one circle in a season, and go on to the next one maybe a few years later.

But a single person can make a Venus figure and a cave painting, and another one next week. That is hardly comparable with cutting 16 ton blocks (and doing this with stone tools, and a 50 ton incompleted one). How did they lift the weight of 200 men out of the quarry? I have asked specific questions like this before and never gotten a concrete answer. So I surmise that it has not been experimentally confirmed. Maybe you think this is a minor detail. I do not think so. Why is it so difficult to round up enough, say, college students for a shcool project? Once it has been done, then we have an idea about the effort required, in terms of manpower, organization etc. But the fact that it has NOT been done indicates to me that it is a substantial effort, maybe more than you imagine.

Only then can we determine if this is even possible. Then we can talk about what qualities or culture the people must have had to manage that accomplishment. Without experiment or observation of the challenge that this represents, what do you expect to learn from talking about the !Kung tribe? I am sorry to repeat myself, but science is observation.
Hi;
A previous thread started by the L showed 2 men running while dragging a 2 tonne stone. This was achieved by short woods arranged like railway sleepers and lubed with animal fat. The clip is well worth a watch and while no one is saying that the method shown is the method used by the ancients it is a possibility;




#784    Swede

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 12:19 AM

View Postlliqerty, on 27 June 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

That is okay, no loss to me. But it is enlightening that the definition of science has been changed to "possibilities"! Endless, whatever-your-imagination-can-come-up-with Possibilities!

Sorry everybody, I was not aware that facts do not matter anymore! But now I understand.

Ah, but they do. A number of your misconceptions (such as those related to lithic technology and draft domestication) have already been addressed. Now, let us address other matters. Please remember some of your earlier pronouncments.

The way Schmidt sees it, Gobekli Tepe's sloping, rocky ground is a stonecutter's dream. Even without metal chisels or hammers, prehistoric masons wielding flint tools could have chipped away at softer limestone outcrops, shaping them into pillars on the spot before carrying them a few hundred yards to the summit and lifting them upright. Then, Schmidt says, once the stone rings were finished, the ancient builders covered them over with dirt. Eventually, they placed another ring nearby or on top of the old one. Over centuries, these layers created the hilltop.

http://environment-e...rst-temple.html

Will attempt to provide further and more technical information upon return to base.

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#785    Aus Der Box Skeptisch

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 12:27 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 27 June 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:



Aus, do you remember the actual Wiki page on which you found this photo? I tried tracking it down and couldn't find it.

You're not the first person to be misdirected by the photo. It's popped up before at UM in discussions about Göbekli Tepe. I get tired of honest people getting bad information on the internet. Isn't there some way on Wiki pages to note or comment on such errors?
I couldn't tell you which site this came from. Unfortunately. I was trailing from site to site trying to find just pure archaeological report data on items unearthed and when I noticed on one list there was the picture with cuneiform writing I got excited clicked the photo gave a direct source link from the photo... posted it... found the reference to Stele of vultures and continued to follow down those happy little data trails. Only to find almost immediately that this stepwise was found in Mesopotamia and was acquainted with a dig thought to be directly Sumerian. What a let down. So I posted immediately that I had been duped so as not to spread this artifact as GT.  And now you know the rest of the story as a man once said... LOL. If anyone has any links to reputable archaeological artifact lists that would be of great service to me. The more boring and mundane the better as I said in an earlier post.

Edited by Aus Der Box Skeptisch, 28 June 2012 - 12:28 AM.

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#786    Aus Der Box Skeptisch

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 12:31 AM

View Postjules99, on 27 June 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:


Hi;
A previous thread started by the L showed 2 men running while dragging a 2 tonne stone. This was achieved by short woods arranged like railway sleepers and lubed with animal fat. The clip is well worth a watch and while no one is saying that the method shown is the method used by the ancients it is a possibility;

*SNIP*
Im not sure possibilities are his thing... LOL

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#787    cladking

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 12:57 AM

View Postjules99, on 27 June 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

Hi;
A previous thread started by the L showed 2 men running while dragging a 2 tonne stone. This was achieved by short woods arranged like railway sleepers and lubed with animal fat. The clip is well worth a watch and while no one is saying that the method shown is the method used by the ancients it is a possibility;



Of course the problem with such a contrived idea is that it doesn't fit the cultural evidence.

There  isn't even any evidence that they had the word "ramp" in the entire culture.

This is fantasy concocted by those who believe the builders were backward and couldn't
come up with something easy.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#788    Aus Der Box Skeptisch

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 01:07 AM

View Postcladking, on 28 June 2012 - 12:57 AM, said:



Of course the problem with such a contrived idea is that it doesn't fit the cultural evidence.

There  isn't even any evidence that they had the word "ramp" in the entire culture.

This is fantasy concocted by those who believe the builders were backward and couldn't
come up with something easy.
In all of the posts regarding the builders you are the only person who references them as backward or not backward... the rest of us know better.
And if I recall correctly you adamantly deny anything of importance prior to dynasty 4 or 5. So what is it you actually know of culture? Impress me and instead of commenting on the lack of cultural knowledge instead show me in your words or whatever means you can how culturally we should be looking at this. As I recall dragging stones was something they were good at especially when they used sledges which is shown in ancient Egyptian reliefs so I'm curious as to your response. I would love to learn from you cladking as I feel most have a valid insight into at least one dimension of history.
BTW, I've honestly missed you and am glad to see you around again. (No sarcasm!)

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#789    cladking

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 01:22 AM

View PostAus Der Box Skeptisch, on 28 June 2012 - 01:07 AM, said:

And if I recall correctly you adamantly deny anything of importance prior to dynasty 4 or 5. So what is it you actually know of culture? Impress me and instead of commenting on the lack of cultural knowledge instead show me in your words or whatever means you can how culturally we should be looking at this. As I recall dragging stones was something they were good at especially when they used sledges which is shown in ancient Egyptian reliefs so I'm curious as to your response. I would love to learn from you cladking as I feel most have a valid insight into at least one dimension of history.

This is all I've been trying to do for six years.

There are no ramps whatsoever in the cultural context as regards lifting stones to build
pyramids.  The word simply doesn't exist at the time of great pyramid building and this is
a simple fact.  It's not only the word that doesn't exist though it's any evidence of any na-
ture that they used ramps to lift these stones.

I'm surprised you ask what does exist because most people simply don't care.

What exists everywhere is boats.  The only title in the lower workmens' cemetery is "Over-
seer of the Boats of Neit".  Everywhere you look in the culture are boats.  The builders said
that the king flew in a boat and was cremated on top of the pyramid.  There are "Overseers
of Boat crews" and "Overseers of Canals". There's nothing at all about moving fill or building
ramps.  Zilch!!!

When you put pyramid building in its cultural context there's no such thing as ramps.

Everyone will scream bloody murder because this doesn't fit in with the "skeptics" beliefs but
the facts are all on my side.  It's not even logical to believe they had to have used ramps.  It's
a non-sequitur dreamed up long before many of the facts were even known.  The concept does
not stand up to scrutiny.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#790    Aus Der Box Skeptisch

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 01:31 AM

Ramp...
M S-TWT S-RHR PHWY
:w00t:
Unfortunately I think only sesh will get the joke... and sesh pardon me for using English grammer style...

"Though I stand in opposition to you, I am not opposed to you. Night and Day stand in opposition to each other, but they are not opposed to each other -they are merely two halves of the same coin."

#791    Aus Der Box Skeptisch

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 01:38 AM

View Postcladking, on 28 June 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:



This is all I've been trying to do for six years.

There are no ramps whatsoever in the cultural context as regards lifting stones to build
pyramids.  The word simply doesn't exist at the time of great pyramid building and this is
a simple fact.  It's not only the word that doesn't exist though it's any evidence of any na-
ture that they used ramps to lift these stones.

I'm surprised you ask what does exist because most people simply don't care.

What exists everywhere is boats.  The only title in the lower workmens' cemetery is "Over-
seer of the Boats of Neit".  Everywhere you look in the culture are boats.  The builders said
that the king flew in a boat and was cremated on top of the pyramid.  There are "Overseers
of Boat crews" and "Overseers of Canals". There's nothing at all about moving fill or building
ramps.  Zilch!!!

When you put pyramid building in its cultural context there's no such thing as ramps.

Everyone will scream bloody murder because this doesn't fit in with the "skeptics" beliefs but
the facts are all on my side.  It's not even logical to believe they had to have used ramps.  It's
a non-sequitur dreamed up long before many of the facts were even known.  The concept does
not stand up to scrutiny.
one could also say obelisk doesn't exist because it was Greek. Obelisks exist we can see them touch them but the word is not Egyptian. We also have evidence of ramps on the GP and ramps on lesser pyramids we can see them touch them yet we don't have a name for them... it doesn't really matter because Egyptians were very familiar with an inclined plane and used them. They obviously didn't need a word for it.

Edited by Aus Der Box Skeptisch, 28 June 2012 - 01:39 AM.

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#792    kmt_sesh

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 01:42 AM

View Postcladking, on 28 June 2012 - 12:57 AM, said:

...

There  isn't even any evidence that they had the word "ramp" in the entire culture.
...

r-stA

View PostAus Der Box Skeptisch, on 28 June 2012 - 01:31 AM, said:

Ramp...
M S-TWT S-RHR PHWY
:w00t:
Unfortunately I think only sesh will get the joke... and sesh pardon me for using English grammer style...

LOL Damn, you got me. I'm sitting here trying to make sense of it and am not getting anywhere.

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#793    cladking

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 01:46 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 28 June 2012 - 01:42 AM, said:

r-stA

Great!

Now all you have to do is find this word used in the 4th dynasty.

"Cultural context" applies to the Great Pyramid builders not later times.

Men fear the pyramid, time fears man.

#794    Aus Der Box Skeptisch

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 01:48 AM

View Postcladking, on 28 June 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:



This is all I've been trying to do for six years.

There are no ramps whatsoever in the cultural context as regards lifting stones to build
pyramids.  The word simply doesn't exist at the time of great pyramid building and this is
a simple fact.  It's not only the word that doesn't exist though it's any evidence of any na-
ture that they used ramps to lift these stones.

I'm surprised you ask what does exist because most people simply don't care.

What exists everywhere is boats.  The only title in the lower workmens' cemetery is "Over-
seer of the Boats of Neit".  Everywhere you look in the culture are boats.  The builders said
that the king flew in a boat and was cremated on top of the pyramid.  There are "Overseers
of Boat crews" and "Overseers of Canals". There's nothing at all about moving fill or building
ramps.  Zilch!!!

When you put pyramid building in its cultural context there's no such thing as ramps.

Everyone will scream bloody murder because this doesn't fit in with the "skeptics" beliefs but
the facts are all on my side.  It's not even logical to believe they had to have used ramps.  It's
a non-sequitur dreamed up long before many of the facts were even known.  The concept does
not stand up to scrutiny.
was there an overseer of knot tier's or over seer of water proofers or over seer of leak fixers? Or how about over seer of blisters or over seer of water flow.... I'm not mocking you I am asking if there would be a need for a micro managed list of overseers. The pyramid and canal and builders had overseers... yes? Then you would not need over seer of ramps its redundant... know what I mean or is this just one of those conversations where what I would like to discuss further is moot in your eyes. If so that's totally cool with me. I just wanted to pose the plausibility of this as a reason that maybe we could discuss further.

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#795    kmt_sesh

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 01:48 AM

View PostAus Der Box Skeptisch, on 28 June 2012 - 12:27 AM, said:

I couldn't tell you which site this came from. Unfortunately. I was trailing from site to site trying to find just pure archaeological report data on items unearthed and when I noticed on one list there was the picture with cuneiform writing I got excited clicked the photo gave a direct source link from the photo... posted it... found the reference to Stele of vultures and continued to follow down those happy little data trails. Only to find almost immediately that this stepwise was found in Mesopotamia and was acquainted with a dig thought to be directly Sumerian. What a let down. So I posted immediately that I had been duped so as not to spread this artifact as GT.  And now you know the rest of the story as a man once said... LOL. If anyone has any links to reputable archaeological artifact lists that would be of great service to me. The more boring and mundane the better as I said in an earlier post.

I did spend awhile trying to find the Wiki page to which the image belongs but had no success. It's not on the standard Wiki page for Göbekli Tepe, but there are so many variations and permutations of Wiki at this point that it's hard to keep track. I just hate to see information presented in such a sloppy manner—but as we all know, Wiki pages are not created by professional scholars.

You were quick to post the correction and I saw it, too. That was the proper thing to do, so hat's off to you. It also allowed you to avoid the required whipping for posting errors. Just kidding. If that happened every time someone at UM posted something incorrect, probably half or more of all the posters here would be nothing now but puddles of red goo.

Take heart. Cuneiform was used in Anatolia. It was brought to the Hittites around the time of the Middle Assyrian Period, and was widespread in Hatti by the Late Bronze Age. Of course, that was just a wee bit later than Göbekli Tepe. :lol:

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