333 replies to this topic

[regi]

Lucas, what info were you able to find on Bernas? According to one article, police said "she had biked to the area from her home."

I haven't come across anything re: even possible sightings of Brasso after she left her apt., except for that one witness' sighting, and I don't know precisely where that sighting occurred.

[Lucas North-justiceseeker]

To regi,first about the map.I saw a map of woodstone circa 1995 overhead satalite of the city like this one.It was a dirt field,an "underdeveloped park".That very same bike trail was there and thats were Angelas body was discovered just off the left side.Dont get it confused with the right bike trail because thats on the side of the empty canal,known as the arizona canal diversion channel.That channel runs up from metrocenter into the dry cave creek bed.The green grass wasnt there,but the article sunshine and sadness said the trees were.You see where all the trees kind of come around the bike trail? I asume thats were she was dumped and the killers drove their veichle on the bike trail to dump the body.I think they underesed it there because why take the clothing back to the crime scene when you didnt take the bike?I think they were trying to mask it as a sex crime.And about the Bernas articles,compared to Brosso there are very few.There was one in the Phoenix Gazette from sept 23 1993 that showed a picture of a person of interest.He was described as wearing a brown long sleave shirt and having dirty blond hair and a beard.In the sept 27 article about her funeral they said police tracked down this "person of interest" and he couldnt provide "usefull information".I know she was an arcadia high student and lived around 42nd street and osborn road.I think Melanie was in the wrong place at the wrong time while Angela was clearly targeted.Now to voiceinthewind,I never have met Joseph Krakowiecki,just thinking about why the head was cut off.I doubt he wasnt involved because of suspicious behavior after killing.He seemed to go into hiding,switching apartments with that guy(Do you know who he is?).I do know that "pet ferret" from the article was Josephs and Angelas.Ej Montini did a very nice tribute article in nov 25 1992 issue of az republic talking about Angela the person.What about Mark Qualls the fisherman who found the head? If you go to google news archive you can pull up some old articles on the case,the rest are either microfiche or paid databases.The article that I am thinking of now is entitled"canal man who found head has many problems",its on the second page of listings.Its very bizzare,does he have connections to the "warlocks" or Krakowiecki?

Edited by lucas north, 07 August 2012 - 09:03 PM.

[Lucas North-justiceseeker]

Also to regi,I found the article that tells about Brossos behavior after leaving the apartment for the bike ride.Its actually a "Phoenix Gazette" article.I did get the right date,November 11 1992.The article is title"Beheading victim identified" by writers Glen Creno and Betty Reid.A man named Clark Chelsey said"she apeared upsest about something,paranoid,confused,looking around".I have a whole file of michrofiche articles I printed and clipped out.Tell me if your looking for any specific details and I will go over them for you and give you the info on the dates of the articles and if they are republic or gazette.

[regi]

Oh, yes, Lucas. I understand that Brasso's body was found on the west side of the canal. For some unknown reason- on the current map- I hadn't previously noticed 25th Ave. running between the complex and the trail!
If that street existed at the time of the murder, then obviously, a vehicle could have been used to dump the body, and I think the fencing- that I also now know is there- suggests that that's most likely.
Also, I'd been curious about the reported witness sighting of a vehicle "at a park". It seems that the parking area I show on the map was likely where the witness was referring to, that is, if that road, itself, existed.

Re: staging of sexual assault, the type of specimen that the DNA was obtained from would show whether a sexual assault occurred or not, along with other evidence collected from the body, and/or injuries to the body associated with sexual assault. In cases of staging, the clothing is removed to suggest a sexual assault, but there's no other evidence, so that tells us it's staged.
The mutilation, alone, tells us about the perp., and his motivation, and it's not a crime that's perpetrated for someone else' benefit.
Re: the clothing, I don't know why-  apart from mere convenience- that a perp would dump the clothing with a body as opposed to disposing of it in some other way, or in some other place. Of course, clothing at a crime scene could suggest that the crime occurred right there. Maybe that's how the perp wanted it to appear.

About Chelsey's statement, what strikes me is how he managed to form those impressions- apparently just from her "looking around." I mean, was there something else in her demeanor which suggested any one of those other things?
It certainly doesn't sound like the demeanor of someone going out for their routine bike ride after dark and with the intention of riding off into what appears to be very secluded area.
My impression is that it was after dark, and she was a young woman, and if she was looking around, it was because she was cautious of her surroundings, not because she was "upset" or "confused". And just because one is cautious, doesn't mean they're paranoid.
Bottom line, if he got all that just from her looking around, then I disregard his perceptions because that's all they are and it doesn't make sense to me as to how he arrived at them.

It doesn't appear to me that the boyfriend went into hiding. He simply switched apartments, and for a valid reason. There's no sinister reason that would make sense.

It's too bad there's not much info. on Bernas. How isolated is that area? It appears that the murder occurred there.

Edited by regi, 08 August 2012 - 01:41 PM.

[Lucas North-justiceseeker]

The murder of Melanie took place at/near the canal.Melanies mother last saw her in the "early evening"of tuesday sept 21 1993.She was reported missing at 2:00 am and was discovered floating in the canal at aprx 10:00 am.She was discovered by police after a jogger "noticed blood on one canal bank".I would say in the case as Angela,Melanie was likely snatched while riding her green spc hardrocksport mountain bike along the canal and taken to a house in the area.Voice in the wind said these "warlocks" had a house in sunnyslope,a north central phoenix neihborhood that stretches from cactus down to northern avenue from 19th ave to 16th str.Maybe if the house was on the canal they were waiting for her,or any other female cyclist,to come by.I find it interesting that it was the southern bank where the blood was discovered near Melanies body and Angelas head.Maybe they walked westward from the house on the southern bank of the canal and dumped the head and body there.The arizona canal comes up from arcadia north westward up through the metrocenter area.Melanie probably rode her bike up from her house to 40str and camelback area and biked along the southern bank up until12street/northern area to interstate 17.Somewhere along there she must have been grabed.In the encyclopedia of unsolved crimes book is the only mention I can find of a "turqoise body suit".Maybe it was planted there by the killers on purpose.Or maybe it was forgoten,although I doubt it.Why would the killer want to atract attention to himself by walking home naked or in his underwear?Or maybe it was just coincidental it was there,left by someone who had no connection/idea about the killing.Also it might have been only one of the killers who did this instead of the likely group effort in Angelas murder.They way they described the dna in march 1994 was"All we can say for sure is that the same male individual had contact with both victims".Also here is some more info about woodstone area.I do remember looking at the old map and seeing that those first buildings to the south of the apartment complex werent there back then.The map I was is circa 1995,so it should be the way it looked in 1992.I was also studying the area along the southern canal bank just now on google maps.Just west of 19th avenue there is an apartment complex and trailer park.East of there are houses.Voiceinthewind,do you know where the house in sunnyslope was? And what about the fisherman?

Edited by lucas north, 08 August 2012 - 08:57 PM.

[Voiceinthewind]

Do not have any info on the fisherman or actually were the condo was located in relation to the finding of the corpses.

Regarding Sunnyslope--if you had ever seen the area in the 90's you would know it was a dichotomy of squalor/danger and the saintliness of the Amish community.  It was especially known at the time for drugs and unsavory residents.  Definitely a place that should have been investigated for druggies and covens.

Instead of dismissing some of the behaviors and asking why would they do this or that, I would offer that perhaps it was important for them to get the publicity.  If it were a Satanic ritualistic killing and they were in competition with other parties nationwide, the perp had to give the credible message that they did it.  Again, are there other dismemberment murders occurring approximately within the Oct-Nov timeframe.  Authorities need to determine if a pattern or trend exists. Just from my basic research, people who worship demonic entities have a nationawide network and convention of sorts April - May of each year (in San Diego?).  Thus, the perp leaving items at such a horrific scene makes sense to me.  Another thing to consider, could someone really do something so vile without drugs or any illegal substance in their system.  It takes guts to take guts. The sloppiness in forgetting items is a sign of altered state

[regi]

lucas north, on 08 August 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

The murder of Melanie took place at/near the canal.Melanies mother last saw her in the "early evening"of tuesday sept 21 1993.She was reported missing at 2:00 am and was discovered floating in the canal at aprx 10:00 am.She was discovered by police after a jogger "noticed blood on one canal bank".I would say in the case as Angela,Melanie was likely snatched while riding her green spc hardrocksport mountain bike along the canal and taken to a house in the area.Voice in the wind said these "warlocks" had a house in sunnyslope,a north central phoenix neihborhood that stretches from cactus down to northern avenue from 19th ave to 16th str.Maybe if the house was on the canal they were waiting for her,or any other female cyclist,to come by.I find it interesting that it was the southern bank where the blood was discovered near Melanies body and Angelas head.Maybe they walked westward from the house on the southern bank of the canal and dumped the head and body there.The arizona canal comes up from arcadia north westward up through the metrocenter area.Melanie probably rode her bike up from her house to 40str and camelback area and biked along the southern bank up until12street/northern area to interstate 17.Somewhere along there she must have been grabed.In the encyclopedia of unsolved crimes book is the only mention I can find of a "turqoise body suit".Maybe it was planted there by the killers on purpose.Or maybe it was forgoten,although I doubt it.Why would the killer want to atract attention to himself by walking home naked or in his underwear?Or maybe it was just coincidental it was there,left by someone who had no connection/idea about the killing.Also it might have been only one of the killers who did this instead of the likely group effort in Angelas murder.They way they described the dna in march 1994 was"All we can say for sure is that the same male individual had contact with both victims".Also here is some more info about woodstone area.I do remember looking at the old map and seeing that those first buildings to the south of the apartment complex werent there back then.The map I was is circa 1995,so it should be the way it looked in 1992.I was also studying the area along the southern canal bank just now on google maps.Just west of 19th avenue there is an apartment complex and trailer park.East of there are houses.Voiceinthewind,do you know where the house in sunnyslope was? And what about the fisherman?

The difficulty for me has been trying to ascertain what the area was like back when these crimes occurred. I mean, 15 years ago, my own neighborhood was a cow pasture!
I was only curious about 25th Ave and whether or not it was there at the time. And I didn't know there was fencing along the complex.
In Bernas case, that appears to be a very busy area now, and I don't know if there was a house in the area or not. I see apts. (now) at the northeast of the discovery site.
Bernas case is linked to Brasso's by "male" DNA, so we know there was sexual assault in both cases, but Bernas case is different in other blatantly obvious ways. There's a reason for that, and I think it's because the crime occurred in a location different than Brasso's.
I'm intrigued by the presence of the bike suit at the Bernas crime scene. Maybe the condition of the suit offers an explanation of why it was discarded.

Edited by regi, 09 August 2012 - 12:46 PM.

[regi]

I want to clarify my point- and problem- with what's been reported as Chelsey's statement of what he saw.
We should only be concerned with what he saw, that is, what he actually saw Brasso do.
I'd ask, "What was she doing that made her appear upset?" Same with confused and paranoid. What was she doing? Confused, upset, and paranoid are his interpretations of her behavior...his own perception of it and his conclusions of it.
If she was looking around, we don't know why. It could have simply been that she had her eye out for a neighborhood cat that she normally saw hanging around! The point is, we don't know.
I don't even know what "looking around" means. Was she peaking around corners? How was she going about "looking around"?
Since he came to all those conclusions, I hope he was asked if he knew - or could think of any possible reasons for her to be all those things.

[Lucas North-justiceseeker]

So it was a condo the "warlocks" were living together in,and the other one was living at woodstone? As for patterns and trends of beheadings the only one I know about ever occuring in phoenix was in 2010.There was this mexican guy who supposedly had connections to drug dealers/mexican mafia,thishappend in chandler.I actually think it did occur in october,but I dont think the killings of Brosso/Bernas had anything to do with this.I am pretty sure these "warlocks" were caucasian werent they? Now to regi.Chelsey made a couple of statement to the press.The one from the Phoenix Gazette article and there was another one where I think he said"I want this solved" and "it was a tragety she had to die in that way".I will look through the articles when I get home tonight and see what else I can find on Chelsey.Also I will try and get to the library this week and find the overhead map of Phoenix from 1992 and see if 25th ave was there.

Edited by lucas north, 09 August 2012 - 07:01 PM.

[regi]

lucas north, on 09 August 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

Chelsey made a couple of statement to the press.The one from the Phoenix Gazette article and there was another one where I think he said"I want this solved" and "it was a tragety she had to die in that way".I will look through the articles when I get home tonight and see what else I can find on Chelsey.Also I will try and get to the library this week and find the overhead map of Phoenix from 1992 and see if 25th ave was there.

That would be very helpful, Lucas! While reviewing the articles, would you please keep an eye out for any more info of a vehicle seen at a park? I'm thinking the witness must have been referring to that parking area off 25th Ave directly east of the complex, but I'm not positive.

I was scoping out the area where Bernas was found, and those canals are a trip! (I'm not at all familiar with canals...) I was looking east and west off of Black Canyon Fwy, and there appears to be a tunnel under the hwy, is that correct?
Anyway, I imagine that it's an isolated place to be after dark.

That the suit was left there must be a very, very strange circumstance. Surely, it's rare that a perp would- intentionally or not- leave his own clothing at a crime scene!

[Lucas North-justiceseeker]

I am not so sure it was about rape if these "warlocks"were gay,Krakowiecki would have wanted revenge.I know the fact that these were two attractive young women make you think it was about rape,but I think this was personal.I just looked at the map and 25th ave wasnt there in a paved form in 1992,it was a dirt field with the exeption of the bike trail.That very same bike trail Angela was found at does go under cactus road and comes out the other side where cave creek park begins.The park Angela was found in has obviously been developed over the years and is called"sand lilly park".The dirt field was big,that parking area you pointed out wasnt there.The only parking area was within the complex.Also like I previously stated,those first buildings to the south of woodstone werent there.The bike trail goes up to thunderbird but I dont think it goes under that road.You would have to cross the street on your bike to get to the continuation from t-bird up to greenway were it ends just south of greenway at 19th ave.Also the trail goes south down to peoria and I think you would also have to cross that road to continue down to he arizona canal.I did walk down there one day a few months ago while searching for Mark Qualls(who I dont think fishes there anymore).There was a tunnel and it had lighting but it was dirty,lots of grafitti if I remember.So you have a bike trail that stretches roughly 6 and a half to 7 miles.The only mention of the "viechle in the park"was in the November 11 1992 issue of the arizona republic.Now to Chelsey and his statments.Theres one from november 92 without a date(michrofiche I printed and cut out).Its entitled"Brutal Murder Ended Womens Promising Career" from the Phoenix Gazette by writers Alfredo Azula and Betty Reid.The quote I took down was:"I want this solved.There are kids and families who live here.My girlfriend was really shocked about this". The one were he said it was a "tradgety" was from Nov 21 issue of the gazette.On november 11 from the gazette was the one were he stated his most interesting quote."She seemed upset about something.She appeared concerned,paranoid,looking around.The next day I was really shocked when I watched the news".So thats all I could find on Chelsey.I tried looking up his name on the web but there is no record of one who exists in this country.I think Clark Chelsey was an alias.They said he was"20 years old".And they said he "lived in the apartment complex adjourning Brossos".Those are the words they used in the articles.When he saw Brosso caring her bike down the stairs it was with his"girlfriends mother".Maybe this individual could have been involved in the killing,an innocent bystander or a fake witness manufactured by the gazette to get more interest and sell more papers.Who knows? The connections to this killing and the book/film silence of the lambs are interesting to.Brossos head was "severed cleanly below the chin".In the silence of the lambs book,Buffalo Bill is in a homosexual relationship with flutist Benjimin Raspail.Raspail broke up with Buffalo Bill. So to get even he killed Raspails new lover Klaus by severing his head cleanly under the chin and storing it in a jar.He also skined him and wore his skin to try and get Raspails attention.In the film its Raspail whos head was severed cleanly under the chin and stored in a jar.The book came out in 1988 I believe and the film was released in theaters on valentines day 1991.I would really like to get voiceinthewinds take on the paralels between fiction and reality here.Were these "warlocks" fans of silence of the lambs?Did anyone at that party dress up as Hannibal Lector or Buffalo Bill? Did you remember seeing Angela and Krakowiecki at the party? What were they dressed as?

Edited by lucas north, 10 August 2012 - 08:40 PM.

[regi]

So...that parking area wasn't there at the time of the crime, and so I'm at a loss as to how the perp transported the body to where it was found. I don't believe a perp would drive a vehicle on the trail because surely, there were other places with easier access, and I question a perp choosing that particular location.
I'm back to wondering where this crime actually took place.

I was only referring to the Bernas site when I'd asked about the tunnel under the freeway...sorry that wasn't clear, but I appreciate your answers.

I take what I read in the paper with a grain of salt because it could be for a variety of reasons that news reports are not always factual or accurate.
The bottom line is that Chelsey somehow had a vantage point to see Brasso coming down the stairs with her bike. I'd ask, is that the last he saw of Brasso... her coming down the stairs? I hope the authorities obtained a thorough and comprehensive statement from him- and his girlfriend's mother- regarding what is/are apparently, the last known reported sighting(s) of Brasso.

People costumed as "warlocks" at a Halloween party isn't suspicious.
Apart from that, speculation of warlocks is contradictory to how experts classify this type of crime/perpetrator.
Re: that movie, in real life that was Ed Geins, and he wasn't in a cult, nor was he a satanist, or a warlock.

[Voiceinthewind]

Lucas, in response to your inquiries: One person was a self-proclaimed warlock and cross dresser. Do not know of any fascination with "silence of the lambs. No, personally did not attend Halloween party so cannot offer any feedback on Angela or Joe's attendence/attire.  The caped monks or warlock parade was something to behold, I guess, and was talked about.

Recap of things that make you go uhmmm...
Purple bike seen at the complex in someone's apt. within the same timeframe when Angela's remains were found ~ Nov. 11th .
Suspected perp(s) in their twenties
Connection to DeVry (attended, but not on a fulltime basis)
Suspect(s) lived in vicinity and one at complex.
One of the suspects died of puemonia/HIV a few years back--possibilty that was the DNA sample from the crime.  Since PD cannot locate in any database or crimes committed recently having that DNA.
You may recall that I mentioned if Angela already knew the person from the party or complex, it would not be difficult to get her trust and have her guard down.  
One of suspected perps  (came to Phx in 1991) from East Coast --Angela was from PA.  They would have a point of reference to start a conversation.
The suspected perp has connection to nationwide transport (refrigerated).
The perp(s) have little education, few skills, and living from hand to mouth--so scheming how to make a living. The image projected was they were well off and cultured . That's why think following the money is still a valid reason to check regarding dismemberment/ harvesting body parts and if one of their friends came into a windfall after the murder(s).

Whether the murders were ritualistic or having to do with financial gains or severely deranged minds, it doesn't matter.  The cases need to be solved.  There have been missing individuals never located, murders.  I'll give you an example of one-- July, 2011, Christine Jurek found in Avondale/Goodyear.  No one can figure out how she got to west side when she didn't have a car and lived in center of Phoenix.  Not to muddy the waters, but reason I mention Christine's case is that the suspected perp from the 92 and 93 cases lived in Goodyear. Interestly, perp(s) disappeared shortly thereafter, probably hiding in plain site.

Do not discount the possibility of female(s) accomplices.
Does anyone know --Did the complex's clubhouse have a trainer or someone offered/advertised to personnally train at that time?

[regi]

Voiceinthewind, these cases need to be solved the same as any other unsolved cases. You're preaching to the choir, and I don't know why. I've given these cases a lot of serious thought and consideration... I've spent a lot of time doing so, and I think your comment undermines my effort.

The people you keep referring to are not "suspects". It's inappropriate to refer to them that way unless authorities have already named them as such.

Re: the national data bank, authorities need to be sure that the DNA is also in the state data bank (SDIS) because different criteria is required for each of the three data banks (NDIS, SDIS, and LDIS- which is local), and each data bank isn't accessed automatically even if the profile is in the NDIS.
(That info comes from an FBI website.)

[Lucas North-justiceseeker]

In response to voiceinthewind,you made me think of something.You said one of these individuals came to Phoenix from the east coast.Was it New Jersey were he was from? Thats where Krakowiecki is from.In reading the old articles I discovered about Krakowiecki and Angelas relationship.They met at the Devry New Jersey branch sometime in 1990.Then they traveled west,Brosso to finish her studies through May 1992 in Los Angeles.Krakowiecki here in Phoenix at the branch on Dunlap and 25th ave.Krakowiecki graduated in 1993 from Devry,couldnt find a Devry yearbook despite some inquiries.Brosso moved into woodstone with Krakowiecki in apartment 3115(yes its the real number) in June 1992.So we know for a fact this was a serious relationship.They knew each other for 2 years.Traveled across the country with each other and lived together for 5 months.I just cant shake the feeling Krakowiecki was involved.I dont know the man,but his behavior reeks of suspicion.He lied apout them having problems.He never gave one interview and moved on pretty quickly after with a new life.If this guy was from Jersey then its possible he could be a cousin,friend or brother of Krakowiecki.