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Near Death Experiences[NDEs]


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#1    conspiracy buff

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 02:01 PM

I have read books on the subject of NDEs-Near Death Experiences and also watched documentaries with actual people who have died whether accidental or intentional and returned from their experiences to tell of their accounts.  The biggest majority of these experiences are pleasant with people seeing a bright, white light or a bright tunnel that leads to what those involved describe as "Heaven" or wherever it is we go when we die.  In contrast to that, there are also hellish NDEs in which people describe a horrible place where they are tortured and interact with demons and other residents of "Hell".  What is most interesting about these hellish NDEs is that most people say it is as if you have a physical form or body and can be tortured and beaten.  Whether these people come back from the good NDEs or the bad ones, these individuals are changed afterwards and very much believe in what they experience while dying or having been clinically dead.

Now science will claim that there is a part of our brain that copes with the dying process and insist that's all these NDEs are.  Just a chemical reaction that is a part of dying.  I do not think as many people would be having similar descriptions of the afterlife and what happens if it were just a brain chemical reaction.  Since every person is distinctly different, I cannot believe that these experiences would all be the same.  If it were just our brain's coping mechanism, we would all experience different things and not have universal similarities.  Another common detail is that some people claim to see, talk to, touch, and otherwise interact with deceased loved ones.  To me, this seems very logical in the context of dying or being near death.  Again, it is almost always associated with this phenomena and science cannot explain a good portion of these events.  What does everyone here believe about this topic?

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#2    Rafterman

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 04:01 PM

Fairly typical neurological response to high levels of CO2 being present in the brain.  Nothing really woo woo about it.

A good review can be found here:

http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4261

But you're probably not going to like it.  I find Dr. Sartori's research especially interesting.

Edited by Rafterman, 08 April 2013 - 04:02 PM.

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#3    the_twilightzone

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 05:31 PM

Out of curiosity, how does science explain a person deaf or blind since birth having the ability to hear or see during NDEs?  In the link posted above, it's mentioned that those with disabilities are often "whole" during NDEs, but I don't think an explanation was offered.  Admittedly, I scanned a few of the paragraphs, so it's possible I missed something.

For the record, I'm not decided one way or the other, just very interested in the topic.


#4    spartan max2

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 05:52 PM

The above link is basically the lack of oxygen argument.NDEs sound real to me cause if the brain is in the process of dying it doesn't seem like it would be possible for it to be forming new memories, exapecially super vivid ones

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#5    *Frank*

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 06:55 PM

View Postconspiracy buff, on 08 April 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

I have read books on the subject of NDEs-Near Death Experiences and also watched documentaries with actual people who have died whether accidental or intentional and returned from their experiences to tell of their accounts.  The biggest majority of these experiences are pleasant with people seeing a bright, white light or a bright tunnel that leads to what those involved describe as "Heaven" or wherever it is we go when we die.  In contrast to that, there are also hellish NDEs in which people describe a horrible place where they are tortured and interact with demons and other residents of "Hell".  What is most interesting about these hellish NDEs is that most people say it is as if you have a physical form or body and can be tortured and beaten.  Whether these people come back from the good NDEs or the bad ones, these individuals are changed afterwards and very much believe in what they experience while dying or having been clinically dead.

Now science will claim that there is a part of our brain that copes with the dying process and insist that's all these NDEs are.  Just a chemical reaction that is a part of dying.  I do not think as many people would be having similar descriptions of the afterlife and what happens if it were just a brain chemical reaction.  Since every person is distinctly different, I cannot believe that these experiences would all be the same.  If it were just our brain's coping mechanism, we would all experience different things and not have universal similarities. Another common detail is that some people claim to see, talk to, touch, and otherwise interact with deceased loved ones.  To me, this seems very logical in the context of dying or being near death.  Again, it is almost always associated with this phenomena and science cannot explain a good portion of these events.  What does everyone here believe about this topic?

Just wanted to address the bolded bit here. I think people having similar experiences makes it more likely that it is just the brain shutting down.

Although there are billions of people in the world and every one is different, we all react to certain stimuli the same way. If I get a cold or the flu I will have a cough, sore throat, runny nose, sneezes; some or all of the above. That is the same for every single person in the world.

So why is it so weird to think that people would have the same reactions when they are dying?

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#6    Rafterman

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:02 PM

View Post*Frank*, on 08 April 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

Just wanted to address the bolded bit here. I think people having similar experiences makes it more likely that it is just the brain shutting down.

Although there are billions of people in the world and every one is different, we all react to certain stimuli the same way. If I get a cold or the flu I will have a cough, sore throat, runny nose, sneezes; some or all of the above. That is the same for every single person in the world.

So why is it so weird to think that people would have the same reactions when they are dying?

Probably not dissimilar to those very similar anxiety dreams that millions of people have.  It's just how our mind is wired.

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                                                                                                                                           - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World:  Science as a Candle in the Dark

#7    Rafterman

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:04 PM

View Postthe_twilightzone, on 08 April 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

Out of curiosity, how does science explain a person deaf or blind since birth having the ability to hear or see during NDEs?  In the link posted above, it's mentioned that those with disabilities are often "whole" during NDEs, but I don't think an explanation was offered.  Admittedly, I scanned a few of the paragraphs, so it's possible I missed something.

For the record, I'm not decided one way or the other, just very interested in the topic.

No clue.  But my first question would be - are persons who are deaf or blind since birth having those types of experiences?

View Postspartan max2, on 08 April 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

The above link is basically the lack of oxygen argument.NDEs sound real to me cause if the brain is in the process of dying it doesn't seem like it would be possible for it to be forming new memories, exapecially super vivid ones

Why not?

"For me, it is better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
                                                                                                                                           - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World:  Science as a Candle in the Dark

#8    spartan max2

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:31 PM

View PostRafterman, on 08 April 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:


Why not?

Based on what we know about the brain currently, our knowledges suggest that our brain needs oxygen to form memories. If NDE's are from the brain dying from lack of oxygen then it wouldent be able to form new memories when it has no oxygen. The more vivid the memory the more connections it has to make which means vivid ones would need even more oxygen.

" I imagine that the intellegent people are the ones so intellegent that they dont even need or want to look "intellegent" anymore".
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#9    spartan max2

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:33 PM

View PostRafterman, on 08 April 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

No clue.  But my first question would be - are persons who are deaf or blind since birth having those types of experiences?

The answer to that is yes. Unless the people takeing the surveys are not telling the truth. Which could be true too.

" I imagine that the intellegent people are the ones so intellegent that they dont even need or want to look "intellegent" anymore".
Criss Jami

#10    The_Spirit_of_Truth

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 08:02 PM

There are people and then there are people. The people who rule the mankind often make their own people who were close to their death and survived claim that they have seen this or that in order the make the other people believe in it. Excerpt from "How Are Religions Made":

Example 1: People are to believe that after death some of our souls are welcomed by one of the mightiest gods, similar to an angel having six wings. A chosen member of the world's mafia, very credibly impressing, will claim, that he had a vision of such a god and at the same time more mafia's members in the various parts of the world will claim that they saw that god when they lost their consciousness or during some near death experience and that he was welcoming their souls. And then many people will believe in such a god.

Example 2: People are to believe that the extraterrestrials are dropping on the planet their own members, looking like beautiful women with red hair. A lot of mafia's members (serious witnesses to you) from many locations of the entire world will then claim, that they saw a flying disc that touched down near some city and an extraterrestrial one came out of it looking like a beautiful woman with red hair, entered the city and disappeared from their sight. And then many of you will start to believe it.


#11    AquilaChrysaetos

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 04:22 AM

Certainly hardcore convincing evidences. Now all that's left is connecting it all into one big picture to understand the afterlife.

Jesus Christ - Matthew 28:18-20 said:

"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

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#12    Heaven Is A Halfpipe

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 04:35 AM

View Postconspiracy buff, on 08 April 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

I have read books on the subject of NDEs-Near Death Experiences and also watched documentaries with actual people who have died whether accidental or intentional and returned from their experiences to tell of their accounts.  The biggest majority of these experiences are pleasant with people seeing a bright, white light or a bright tunnel that leads to what those involved describe as "Heaven" or wherever it is we go when we die.  In contrast to that, there are also hellish NDEs in which people describe a horrible place where they are tortured and interact with demons and other residents of "Hell".  What is most interesting about these hellish NDEs is that most people say it is as if you have a physical form or body and can be tortured and beaten.  Whether these people come back from the good NDEs or the bad ones, these individuals are changed afterwards and very much believe in what they experience while dying or having been clinically dead.

Now science will claim that there is a part of our brain that copes with the dying process and insist that's all these NDEs are.  Just a chemical reaction that is a part of dying.  I do not think as many people would be having similar descriptions of the afterlife and what happens if it were just a brain chemical reaction.  Since every person is distinctly different, I cannot believe that these experiences would all be the same.  If it were just our brain's coping mechanism, we would all experience different things and not have universal similarities.  Another common detail is that some people claim to see, talk to, touch, and otherwise interact with deceased loved ones.  To me, this seems very logical in the context of dying or being near death.  Again, it is almost always associated with this phenomena and science cannot explain a good portion of these events.  What does everyone here believe about this topic?

The one thing you have to understand about science is that they don't know the answers as to why NDE's happen, they have about as many facts as religion does. All they have done is given their best guess to what is happening, and even that is full of holes. I mean, there's stories of some people who have NDE's in theatre who can describe in great detail what they saw during a life saving operation. I guess that's just a chemical reaction in the brain too. Unfortunately, for the cases science can't explain, usually it is the "liar" label which comes out.

I don't believe in Heaven or Hell perse but for sure I could see why a certain individual might see demons during a NDE. When you die, the barriers come down and you're likely to be surrounded by negative entities if you have a negative energy yourself.

Death is nothing to fear, energy cannot be destroyed. It really will be like just stepping into another room and I for one (in the most non-morbid way possible) can't wait to get back home :)

Edited by Heaven Is A Halfpipe, 09 April 2013 - 04:36 AM.

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#13    conspiracy buff

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:33 PM

View Post*Frank*, on 08 April 2013 - 06:55 PM, said:

Just wanted to address the bolded bit here. I think people having similar experiences makes it more likely that it is just the brain shutting down.

We must agree to disagree on this point then.  I do not believe in coincidence, nor do I think mainstream science has given a plausible explanation to why these NDEs happen.  It very well may be a simple brain and chemical combination reaction.  My earlier point to which you bolded is that since every individual is different and has different outlooks, religions, and belief systems that their experience would differ if this were a simple death coping mechanism from our brains.  I can see your point here, I just simply disagree with it respectfully.

Quote

Although there are billions of people in the world and every one is different, we all react to certain stimuli the same way. If I get a cold or the flu I will have a cough, sore throat, runny nose, sneezes; some or all of the above. That is the same for every single person in the world.

It is basic common sense that people are the same, physically speaking.  We all have two eyes, two hands, a nose, a mouth, and indeed, we even react to certain stimuli in the exact same way.  No disagreeing with that fact.  However, I'm of the opinion that these NDEs are not simple stimuli reactions from a chemical brain reaction to the dying process.  There are unexplained elements to the NDEs that cannot be mere chemical reactions or coincidental.  Like someone else above stated, deaf people have heard things during their NDEs.  Mute people have the ability to speak during NDEs.  Blind people describe seeing during their experiences.  All of these things would seem to indicate something beyond coincidence or brain chemicals giving delusions.  I'm sure there are those who don't agree with my viewpoint, which I understand and welcome.  If there's any evidence or studies that have been done that can explain why these impossible things happen, I'm all for hearing it.  Up until now, I've seen nothing to dismiss these NDEs as anything other than the real deal.

Quote

So why is it so weird to think that people would have the same reactions when they are dying?

I am not naïve.  There are some people that rely solely on logic or science to describe things in this world that are often indescribable.  Simply put, I think it is weird to think that people from different cultures, beliefs, backgrounds, and locations would all have almost exactly the same types of experiences.  For example, why would there be the same sights, sounds, or details that are almost identical?  Some may see that as random and coincidence.  If everything about the near death experiences were explained by irrefutable scientific evidence, I would be inclined to dismiss it as a mere coincidental chemical reaction that we all have.  Anyone who has read about these experiences in-depth or has researched it to any degree would notice that there are too many details about them to be either random or coincidental.  Too much of it cannot be fully explained and that's the reason I believe there is something very real to this.  

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#14    notforgotten

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:43 PM

View Postconspiracy buff, on 08 April 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

Now science will claim that there is a part of our brain that copes with the dying process and insist that's all these NDEs are.  Just a chemical reaction that is a part of dying.

They say this of the schizophrenic who has heard God, seen Jesus, the Holy Spirit, Angels, saints, demons and the human devils as well - they lie.


I do not think as many people would be having similar descriptions of the afterlife and what happens if it were just a brain chemical reaction.

I agree.


Another common detail is that some people claim to see, talk to, touch, and otherwise interact with deceased loved ones.

God said that those with faith would be "gathered to their people".  



#15    Rafterman

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 01:44 AM

View Postspartan max2, on 08 April 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

Based on what we know about the brain currently, our knowledges suggest that our brain needs oxygen to form memories. If NDE's are from the brain dying from lack of oxygen then it wouldent be able to form new memories when it has no oxygen. The more vivid the memory the more connections it has to make which means vivid ones would need even more oxygen.

Link please.  And, if true, what are the thresholds?

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                                                                                                                                           - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World:  Science as a Candle in the Dark




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