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War Plan Red


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#46    Little Fish

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 11:04 AM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 25 February 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

No one was killed in the Reichstag fire
they chopped off van der lubbe's head, why doesn't that count?


#47    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 01:04 PM

View PostLittle Fish, on 25 February 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

but i was wondering what redhen thinks about it since he claimed that cooler heads always prevail. surprised you didn't take him to task over his statement since you clearly think it false.

furthermore, you accept that governments will kill their people, but they won't lie about it?
and there was me thinking that governments lie all of the time, sheesh do i need to rethink things!
Hitler & Stalin both killed specific groups of people, those who Stalin thought might be a threat to him, and those who Hitler called enemies of the state, or who the Nazis classified as unpersons. - in other words, they were the ones who Hitler didn't regard as his own citizens. The concentration camps and the Gulags are quite different from any alleged 'false flag' operation.

View PostLittle Fish, on 25 February 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

they chopped off van der lubbe's head, why doesn't that count?
You really don't think there's a difference between finding a scapegoat [or perhaps the real culprit], and deliberately killing thousands of your own citizens? Perhaps the way that you look at things could do with a bit of recalibration, then. :-/

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#48    Q24

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 04:06 AM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 25 February 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

What we're asked to believe is that this means that the Neocons were many, many times worse than Hitler, in that they weren't content to just stage a few faked incidents, or even to set fire to a major public building when no one was around; no, they had to destroy a major public building in its entirety (and use Thermite or whatever, since just flying airliners into it wouldn't be sufficient) and kill thousands of their own citizens, in order to justify what they wanted to do. Do you really not see that operation Northwoods, or the Reichstag, or Gleiwitz, are no comparison at all with 9.11, and really can't be used in order to say that there are precedents?

Operation Northwoods and Operation Himmler (the Gleiwitz incident) are good precedents to the proposed 9/11 false flag attack.  You focus only on deaths incurred during the actual operation, which fails to factor in that those operations had the intent of committing whole nations to war where a foreseeable greater many thousands would perish.

9/11 + Afghanistan + Iraq
= approx. 12,000 U.S. killed

Operation Himmler + WW2
= approx. 5 million+ Germans killed

We can only guess what the casualties of a U.S./Cuba war would have been, but in no way was 9/11 and the resultant action worse in the greater scheme than the two precedents mentioned – in the end these are all foreseeable deaths inherent of the initial operation.

In the cold light of day, what are 3,000 from a population of 300 million when shaping the very future of the globe?

“It is thus necessary that the individual should finally come to realize that his own ego is of no importance in comparison with the existence of the nation, that the position of the individual is conditioned solely by the interests of the nation as a whole.”

How do you think the most powerful politicians in the world value the individual next to pre-eminence of the United States itself?  You think these people wouldn’t exchange you to secure that global pre-eminence?  Those who shape the globe are on a completely different level to you or I.

Operation Northwoods was a 1962 plan by the US Department of Defense to cause acts of violence, blamed on Cuba, in order to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government. The plan called for various false flag actions, such as staged terrorist attacks and plane hijackings, on U.S. and Cuban soil.

#49    preacherman76

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 01:13 PM

View Postredhen, on 24 February 2013 - 11:01 PM, said:

I started this thread with the link to the War Plan Red documentary because it is a very good example of some of the wild, outrageous plans are that conjured up in private think tanks and government defense departments. These people are paid to think up all kinds of threatening scenarios and opportunistic plans (sounds like a dream job to me). But just because there's a plan or a memo doesn't mean it's going to come to fruition.

I once came across a secret document (now declassified) that advocated for using nuclear weapons to "exploit the Canadian tar sands". Yeah, that one sat on the shelf too.

So yes, this thread does concern conspiracy theories. Governments, even democratic ones, conspire to do all kinds of whacky things. But eventually cooler (saner) heads prevail.

So they pay these guys to sit around all day and dream up war plans that they know they will never ever use? You dont think its possible maybe this time around they picked the 9/11 plan (if it actualy existed) outta the hat, after they expressly said we werent using enough imagination to achieve thier empirical goals, and openly desired a new pearl harbor situation? You dont see any problem with the fact that we pay people to sit around and dream up these senerios? Its like you are making excuses for them. Kinda a Oh thats just what the government does, its totaly innocent. And the reason you think its innocent is cause you can point to plans made that werent implemented? So that automaticaly means no plans they make are ever implemented?


If a long list of dead bodies were found, all in one area, that happens to be in the same locality of a person or group of people who have made it known they dream of killing people would you hold that group to the same standard as the people in our government?

Some things are true, even if you dont believe them.

#50    redhen

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 01:33 PM

View Postpreacherman76, on 28 February 2013 - 01:13 PM, said:

So they pay these guys to sit around all day and dream up war plans that they know they will never ever use?

They don't know if these plans will be implemented or not. That's why they are called plans and not operations.

Quote

You dont think its possible maybe this time around they picked the 9/11 plan (if it actualy existed) outta the hat, after they expressly said we werent using enough imagination to achieve thier empirical goals, and openly desired a new pearl harbor situation?

Sure it's possible. Many things are possible, but it is not plausible. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Quote

You dont see any problem with the fact that we pay people to sit around and dream up these senerios? Its like you are making excuses for them. Kinda a Oh thats just what the government does, its totaly innocent.

If they didn't envisage all possible scenarios, they wouldn't be doing their jobs. Yes, that's exactly what I expect them to do.

Quote

And the reason you think its innocent is cause you can point to plans made that werent implemented? So that automaticaly means no plans they make are ever implemented?

If we were talking about some tin-pot dictator like Idi Amin or some totalitarian regime, like Iran, I would be worried. But we're not. We're talking the world's first modern democratic nation.

Quote

If a long list of dead bodies were found, all in one area, that happens to be in the same locality of a person or group of people who have made it known they dream of killing people would you hold that group to the same standard as the people in our government?

You mean like Al Qaeda? Hmm, let me think. Would I hold Al Qaeda to the same standards as I would the U.S. government? Um no.


#51    Babe Ruth

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 02:13 PM

Plans have a way of BECOMING operations.  That's why they call them plans.


#52    preacherman76

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 02:41 PM

View Postredhen, on 28 February 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

Sure it's possible. Many things are possible, but it is not plausible. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


What do you know about evidence? You cant even be bothered to open a link.

Quote


If they didn't envisage all possible scenarios, they wouldn't be doing their jobs. Yes, that's exactly what I expect them to do.

Fair enough. You think its the governments job to dream up senerios where we commit false flag operations to provoke a acceptable public responce for war. For no other reason then empire building, or even just cause we dont like thier leader. Personaly I think that makes you, well, to put it in the kindest way I can think of, I guess the word would be misguided. To say the least. The VERY least.

Quote


If we were talking about some tin-pot dictator like Idi Amin or some totalitarian regime, like Iran, I would be worried. But we're not. We're talking the world's first modern democratic nation.

Ok, I can accept that. Its a fair statement. I mean after all look how Iran indirectly killed millions of Iraqie babies with crippling sanctions for over 20 years. Of course we will never forget the time Iran killed between 100,000 and a million (depending on who you believe) Iraqies with thier "shock and awe" campaign, where they bombed cities full of innocent people night and day for a week. All the while spouting lies about weapons of mass destruction. Hell Iran is STILL killing hundreds of thousands of innocent Afgans with those damn drones. And it wasnt long ago when Iran killed 30,000 in Lybia through arming AlCIAda, and bombing campaigns. What is with those evil Iranians? You think they would want to be like us a "modern democratic nation".



Quote


You mean like Al Qaeda? Hmm, let me think. Would I hold Al Qaeda to the same standards as I would the U.S. government? Um no.

red, please help me understand. Are you not aware that it was in one of those think tank rooms of ours where the invention of alCIAda was created? Have you never heard of Sible Edmons FBI translator, who testified OSBL worked for the CIA right up till the day of 9/11? Let me let you in on something red, alCIAda IS the US government.

Edited by preacherman76, 28 February 2013 - 03:10 PM.

Some things are true, even if you dont believe them.

#53    Babe Ruth

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 08:45 PM

We knew that OBL worked for CIA long before Sibel Edmonds came on the scene.


#54    redhen

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 09:15 PM

View Postpreacherman76, on 28 February 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

What do you know about evidence? You cant even be bothered to open a link.

Actually I have. I have read probably 90% of the links submitted as evidence.

Quote

Fair enough. You think its the governments job to dream up senerios where we commit false flag operations to provoke a acceptable public responce for war. For no other reason then empire building .... rest of straw man omitted

No, it's their job to think up all possible defensive scenarios. Operation Gladio was a defensive operation against a quite possible Soviet invasion of West Germany.

Quote

Ok, I can accept that. Its a fair statement. I mean after all look how Iran indirectly killed millions of Iraqie babies with crippling sanctions for over 20 years.

Is that so?

Quote

Of course we will never forget the time Iran killed between 100,000 and a million (depending on who you believe) Iraqies with thier "shock and awe" campaign, where they bombed cities full of innocent people night and day for a week. All the while spouting lies about weapons of mass destruction.

I assume when you say Iran here you mean USA. The USA did not invade Iraq. It was a coalition incursion of many nations of the world.

Quote

Hell Iran is STILL killing hundreds of thousands of innocent Afgans with those damn drones. And it wasnt long ago when Iran killed 30,000 in Lybia through arming AlCIAda, and bombing campaigns. What is with those evil Iranians? You think they would want to be like us a "modern democratic nation".

I think you hit on the crux of the matter. In the old days (WWII), the enemy would have been beaten, and they would recognize that they were beaten, like Nazi Germany and Japan. All the countries you mentioned were not beaten in the traditional sense of warfare. Thus, the populations there don't feel like they were beaten. Hell in some provinces they reign supreme.

Cruise missiles and smart bombs do not equal leveling Dresden, Hamburg, Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

I think it's a good thing that we don't use our full arsenal, as traditional military doctrine would decree. So let's wish for less nuclear threats and proliferation. Sound good, can we agree on that?


Quote

red, please help me understand. Are you not aware that it was in one of those think tank rooms of ours where the invention of alCIAda was created? Have you never heard of Sible Edmons FBI translator, who testified OSBL worked for the CIA right up till the day of 9/11?

Yes, I knew he was a CIA trained mujahideen  fighting the Commie Russkies for us in Afghanistan.  The enemy of my enemy is my friend. It's a military/political maxim. Next?

Quote

Let me let you in on something red, alCIAda IS the US government.

Is that right?


#55    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 08:00 AM

View Postredhen, on 28 February 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:


I assume when you say Iran here you mean USA. The USA did not invade Iraq. It was a coalition incursion of many nations of the world.

Hmmm. Those who George W. Bush could bully into going along with him, I think is probably more accurate. This great Coalition of the Nations of the World suddenly rose up & unanimously decided to invade Iraq?


Quote

I think you hit on the crux of the matter. In the old days (WWII), the enemy would have been beaten, and they would recognize that they were beaten, like Nazi Germany and Japan. All the countries you mentioned were not beaten in the traditional sense of warfare. Thus, the populations there don't feel like they were beaten. Hell in some provinces they reign supreme.
There's the point; why should they have done the decent thing and recognised that they had been beaten?

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


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#56    Q24

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 11:03 AM

View Postpreacherman76, on 28 February 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

Ok, I can accept that. Its a fair statement. I mean after all look how Iran indirectly killed millions of Iraqie babies with crippling sanctions for over 20 years. Of course we will never forget the time Iran killed between 100,000 and a million (depending on who you believe) Iraqies with thier "shock and awe" campaign, where they bombed cities full of innocent people night and day for a week. All the while spouting lies about weapons of mass destruction. Hell Iran is STILL killing hundreds of thousands of innocent Afgans with those damn drones. And it wasnt long ago when Iran killed 30,000 in Lybia through arming AlCIAda, and bombing campaigns. What is with those evil Iranians? You think they would want to be like us a "modern democratic nation".

Very well put.  For those able to grasp the intended irony of your comments, it is a smack of the stark reality.  To believe the argument can be addressed by applying labels like ‘totalitarian regime’ or ‘modern democratic nation’ is terribly unthinking, showing extreme lack of awareness to actual facts on the ground when it come to who is initiating aggression and perpetrating death and killing.


View Postredhen, on 28 February 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

The USA did not invade Iraq. It was a coalition incursion of many nations of the world.

It takes some terrible blinkeredness to attempt that argument - in particular, mendacity of the first sentence.

Operation Northwoods was a 1962 plan by the US Department of Defense to cause acts of violence, blamed on Cuba, in order to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government. The plan called for various false flag actions, such as staged terrorist attacks and plane hijackings, on U.S. and Cuban soil.

#57    Babe Ruth

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 02:42 PM

Blinkeredness is an apt description.  It seems similar to Cognitive Dissonance, which is really testimony to the efficacy of government propaganda.  Orwell would be proud.


#58    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 02:54 PM

View PostQ24, on 01 March 2013 - 11:03 AM, said:

To believe the argument can be addressed by applying labels like ‘totalitarian regime’ or ‘modern democratic nation’ is terribly unthinking, showing extreme lack of awareness to actual facts on the ground when it come to who is initiating aggression and perpetrating death and killing.

Although I agree that those labels do not fully address it, it would be terribly unthinking to just hand-wave them away.  This seems to border on things you and I have discussed before Q, namely your invocation of 'Lysenkoism' in our past arguments 'explaining' why scientists are so silent on the 9/11 conspiracy despite their must having been aware of the 'blatant' demolition for instance.  As if it somehow needs explaining that Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany in the mid-20th Century, where all media was very strictly controlled and nonconformity heavily punished, is not really a good analog to 21st Century democratic America.  The probability of getting away with a false flag, and maybe more importantly the ramifications from being caught implementing such an operation, are significantly different under those two different government structures and between those time periods.

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#59    Q24

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 12:00 PM

View PostLiquid Gardens, on 01 March 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

Although I agree that those labels do not fully address it, it would be terribly unthinking to just hand-wave them away.  This seems to border on things you and I have discussed before Q, namely your invocation of 'Lysenkoism' in our past arguments 'explaining' why scientists are so silent on the 9/11 conspiracy despite their must having been aware of the 'blatant' demolition for instance.  As if it somehow needs explaining that Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany in the mid-20th Century, where all media was very strictly controlled and nonconformity heavily punished, is not really a good analog to 21st Century democratic America.  The probability of getting away with a false flag, and maybe more importantly the ramifications from being caught implementing such an operation, are significantly different under those two different government structures and between those time periods.

The point is that facts, not labels, should define our perception.  It’s not good enough to say that a “totalitarian regime, like Iran” (whether that description is actually correct or not is another subject) is more prepared to give lives of its citizens than a “modern democratic nation”.  The stereotype attached to those labels might give that impression (and even be true in cases), but the fact is that Iran has not initiated war on another country in over 150 years, since back in the day when it was known as Persia.  Contrast that to the U.S. record and it is clear to see in recent history which government has been most prepared to commit their own to death.

PS You are still taking the ‘Lysenkoism’ comparison over-literally.  It is demonstration that politics can interfere with science to some degree, that is all.

PPS You are still not considering fail-safes in the operation which reduced if not negated probability of the perpetrators’ discovery to a minimum.

Operation Northwoods was a 1962 plan by the US Department of Defense to cause acts of violence, blamed on Cuba, in order to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government. The plan called for various false flag actions, such as staged terrorist attacks and plane hijackings, on U.S. and Cuban soil.

#60    skyeagle409

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 07:55 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 28 February 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

We knew that OBL worked for CIA long before Sibel Edmonds came on the scene.

We know that you have a habit of making up stories.

KEEP YOUR MACH UP AND CHECK SIX




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