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Why did God create us if he knew we would sin


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#16    Artaxerxes

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 04:14 AM

This Earth life is a school and we are here to learn lessons.

Pain  and Suffering

Maybe God didn't have a choice?  

There are people in Malaysia who stick metal rods through the skin of their face, lips, cheeks, etc.   In the Philipines people intentionally re-enact the crucifixion of Jesus.   In the United States little high school girls intentionally take knives and cut themselves.   People go and pay money to have other people "pierce" their bodies.   American Indians have this ritual where they hang themselves from hooks through the skin of their chest and backs.  

In the Middle Ages religious fanatics took whips and flaggelated their own backs till they were bloody raw. Kids today go and get painful tatoos all over their bodies (and body piercings)?   All over the world people intentionally eat hot peppers in their food,   and for some people the hotter the better.  Those peppers burn their lips, tongues, the inside of the mouths, and sometimes they burn as much coming out the other end as when they went in.  

What possesses people to intentionally do very painful things to themselves?   What if maybe it's not the person themselves that are doing those things but the soul directing the person to do those things to themselves?    Now the question is... WHY?  

Just imagine that you are a soul that comes from a place where time and space don't exist, where nothing exists unless it is first thought of, and you haven't got any idea what it feels like to be inside a body, and you don't know what a body even is, or how to direct it, or the parameters of that body and you have a very limited amount of time to learn about the body, and to make "pixels" or bits of information, enough to re-create a body if you need to, and in fact enough information to share with ever soul that has ever lived or will ever live?   What if you have been given the commission of coming to this physical reality and were told by the Creator that He wanted you to make as many bits of information or pixels of information about the shape of the body?   And you only have a very limited amount of time to do it in?

Sort of like a sculptor that has been told to chisel out a body out of marble and all you have been given is a hammer and a chisel.   So you hammer away, and pretty soon this beautiful sculpture emerges from the marble and you did it all with a hammer and a chisel.
  
I am a believer in this life being a school, and we are here to learn a few simple lessons, what time and space look and feel like, what it feels like to inhabit a body, and make memories of what it was like to direct that body, like a driver driving a car, and memories of what it was like to live in a 3 dimensional + 1 time Universe.  And you will use this information after you cross back over into Heaven to conjure up your own reality.    In Mark H's NDE he said "I thought of a mountain and one appeared."   The atheist A.J. Ayer's said "it was very strange, my thoughts became persons."   Mark Horton said, "I merely had to think of a time and place and I was there experiencing everything about that time and place."  
    
We are gatherers of information, and the more emotional the experience the more powerful and long lasting the memory it creates.  The soul uses the body like we use a suit of clothes, and when it is finished it will toss off this suit of clothes like an old worn out suit, with barely a backward glance.   With as much emotion as we might reserve for an old worn out pair of tennis shoes.   We are simply spiritual beings having a physical experience.


#17    Artaxerxes

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 04:17 AM

The soul uses the physical body to learn about the physical universe.  Mosquito bites, scratches, burns, paper cuts, stubbing your toe, hitting your funny bone, are all ways that the soul holistically imprints the physical parameters of the body.  What it means and how it feels to be inside a body.  Like pixels on a TV screen, the more "bits of information" the clearer the picture.  

What it means to learn holistically is that the information is embedded in our everyday lives.  It is not an active kind of learning but passive.  Just as you go about your daily lives you are learning without even realizing it.   When you bake a cake you learn about measurements and fractions and when you build a doghouse you learn about angles, geometry, fractions, etc.   If you read a historical novel  there is oftentimes a good bit of real history embedded in the book.  Little children learn a lot holistically before they ever start to school.  

I had a niece that was a cutter.  She was compelled to take knives and slice her body.  I read that one of the reasons that cutters cut themselves is that they are just wanting to feel "something".    I've noticed that a lot of cutters are young girls who live in protected environments.  Protected from bug bites, or being scratched and bitten by flies and mosquitoes.   I now wonder if the soul somehow isn't taking over or compelling these individuals to cut themselves in order to imprint information.   The soul only has a very short amount of time to imprint the information it needs before returning to the spiritual universe so it has to gather  enough information to last for eternity in one lifetime.   The more emotional the experience the more powerful and long lasting the memory it creates.    

All over the world people have intentionally hurt themselves and made all kinds of excuses and stories to go along with this self-mutilation.  I wonder if there isn't a much deeper spiritual reason why people do the things they do.  For instance in Malaysia and Thailand they stick metal spikes through their skin, in the Philipines they re-enact the crucifixion, North American Indians used to hang themselves by hooks through their chest and back muscles.   During the middle ages self flagellators whipped themselves with whips to atone for their sins.  

Perhaps what was really going on is that through the pain they feel they are all imprinting on the soul the shape and parameters of the body.  It's a way of experiencing time and space, what it feels like to be in a body.  And it's all encoded as bits of information; which will be accessible after we cross over to use to "recreate" a body because heaven seems to be a place where thoughts are things and consciousness creates reality.   The more bits of information, or "pixels" of information the more clear or dense with information will be the recreation?


#18    eight bits

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 08:13 AM

You seem to be asking two questions.

Why would God create a sinner? in the title, and Why would God create a sufferer? in the first line of the OP. The good news is that you answer your second question in the next line:

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Does eternity really make up for a life of war, fear, hunger, or _______ (insert issue here).

Of course, the answer is yes, to the satisfaction of people who attribute the existence of suffering to sin. Much of the point of their God is to perform a compensatory function for them. Human suffering is either deserved, in which case it continues outside of time (or is never compensated for, depending on whose view), or else it is compensated for outside of time. So, God has not created a being that is identified with suffering, just a being that, among other things, suffers.

Whether it is possible to exist and not ever to suffer is speculative, at best. Many of us seem quite willing to endure some suffering in the interest of receiving compensation. For example, if that wasn't an acceptable deal for mothers-to-be, then none of us would be here.

It is possible that this would be the answer to your first question as well. If it is not possible to exist without ever suffering, then God cannot exist without ever suffering, etiher. Assuming that our sinning (understood as a human being not doing what God wants) causes God distress somehow, then, perhaps like the gravid mother-to-be who foresees a very nasty several hours ahead, God takes the hit in the interest of making possible something desirable enough to him afterwards.

I wouldn't know what that something would be. I suspect a lot fewer people know the mind of God than tell us what he's thinking.

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#19    C235

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 08:56 AM

Cause of progress.


#20    Mnemonix

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 09:05 AM

I don't know, and I shouldn't bother trying to get answers.

The answers I get never satisfy me.

I know the feeling of getting a satisfying answer to a question. That satisfaction is almost never felt when I ask questions about religion.

No offence to anyone, just my opinion.


#21    Ugly1

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 10:28 AM

Well humans get the instruction from god to have faith.

Let's imagine that everything is happy go lucky. Nothing bad ever happens. Why would there be a need for faith? There would never be any trials or tribulations. There would probably be no such thing as good, if there was not evil. There would be no happiness if there was not sadness. There would be no yang without the yin. In my opinion, without evil we would be like a bunch of cows out in a pasture. Dumb and just there.

Sorry I don't have time to elaborate more. Gotta finish getting ready for work. Bye Bye!

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#22    libstaK

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 10:41 AM

View Posteight bits, on 01 November 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

You seem to be asking two questions.

Why would God create a sinner? in the title, and Why would God create a sufferer? in the first line of the OP. The good news is that you answer your second question in the next line:



Of course, the answer is yes, to the satisfaction of people who attribute the existence of suffering to sin. Much of the point of their God is to perform a compensatory function for them. Human suffering is either deserved, in which case it continues outside of time (or is never compensated for, depending on whose view), or else it is compensated for outside of time. So, God has not created a being that is identified with suffering, just a being that, among other things, suffers.

Whether it is possible to exist and not ever to suffer is speculative, at best. Many of us seem quite willing to endure some suffering in the interest of receiving compensation. For example, if that wasn't an acceptable deal for mothers-to-be, then none of us would be here.

It is possible that this would be the answer to your first question as well. If it is not possible to exist without ever suffering, then God cannot exist without ever suffering, etiher. Assuming that our sinning (understood as a human being not doing what God wants) causes God distress somehow, then, perhaps like the gravid mother-to-be who foresees a very nasty several hours ahead, God takes the hit in the interest of making possible something desirable enough to him afterwards.

I wouldn't know what that something would be. I suspect a lot fewer people know the mind of God than tell us what he's thinking.

So is it possible/plausable/desirable even to continue for eternity in ignorance of the various circumstances that engender suffering? And how, without the experience of it would anyone comprehend the existence of suffering at all?  Would joy be joy if the understanding of suffering did not exist? Can we appreciate the warmth of the sun if we never feel the cold night air?

Love that last line, so true.

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

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#23    Alienated Being

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 02:07 PM

View PostAlienated Being, on 01 November 2012 - 02:26 AM, said:

He didn't.

View PostJinxdom, on 01 November 2012 - 03:20 AM, said:

He is running a big social experiment or a really sick joke. Don't forget though it's not a sin if you do it for the cause and your side wins.
I think of this "god" fella as the following...

Sociological, nihilistic, authoritarian, diabolical, fascist, radical, masochistic, misogynistic...


#24    zenfahr

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 02:25 PM

God punishing man for sin is like Michealangelo destroying the statue of david because its made of marble.

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#25    Mnemonix

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 02:35 PM

There is a Hadith that says God made us sin so that we would ask Him for forgiveness an He can show us His Mercy by forgiving us. The Hadith also says that if we did not sin, God (Allah) would destroy us and create another people that would sin, and they would ask God for forgiveness, and He would forgive them.

I'm just posting in case it gives some form of insight...

But like I said, I don't like getting involved with religion anymore :(

Edited by Mnemonix, 01 November 2012 - 02:38 PM.


#26    zenfahr

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 03:00 PM

View PostMnemonix, on 01 November 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

There is a Hadith that says God made us sin so that we would ask Him for forgiveness an He can show us His Mercy by forgiving us. The Hadith also says that if we did not sin, God (Allah) would destroy us and create another people that would sin, and they would ask God for forgiveness, and He would forgive them.

I'm just posting in case it gives some form of insight...

But like I said, I don't like getting involved with religion anymore :(
Wow that really makes God sound egocentrical.  Its like a teacher not teaching kids because they want to pass on knowledge, but teaching so that they can be in control, and loved.  I have met teachers like that too.

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#27    Mnemonix

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 03:10 PM

View Postzenfahr, on 01 November 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

Wow that really makes God sound egocentrical.  Its like a teacher not teaching kids because they want to pass on knowledge, but teaching so that they can be in control, and loved.  I have met teachers like that too.

Let me get the translation, if you're interested...

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Abu Hurayrah narrates that the Prophet (SAW) said: I take an oath by that Being in whose control is my life, if you do not sin, Allah will take you away and bring another nation who will commit sins. They will seek forgiveness from Allah and He will forgive them.

Just quoting the original translation, so you can make more accurate judgments.

Edited by Mnemonix, 01 November 2012 - 03:27 PM.


#28    zenfahr

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 03:42 PM

View PostMnemonix, on 01 November 2012 - 03:10 PM, said:

Let me get the translation, if you're interested...



Just quoting the original translation, so you can make more accurate judgments.
Thanks Mnemonix.  Boy that translation opens up a huge can of worms.  Worst case senerio, I go on a murdering rampage, so that I can do what the good books says and seek forgiveness.
But then it is said that God knows all that has gone on in the past present and future.  So in that case, God would have already known that I was going to go on the rampage.  Apparently thats why he made me.  Religion is so confusing.

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#29    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 04:12 PM

View PostAlienated Being, on 01 November 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

I think of this "god" fella as the following...

Sociological, nihilistic, authoritarian, diabolical, fascist, radical, masochistic, misogynistic...

masochistic is one thing that "god" isn't, he would be sadistic.  He enjoys giving pain.

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#30    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 04:17 PM

View Postzenfahr, on 01 November 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

Wow that really makes God sound egocentrical.  Its like a teacher not teaching kids because they want to pass on knowledge, but teaching so that they can be in control, and loved.  I have met teachers like that too.

Like a narcissist.

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Jewish gematria # 1162:
Who is like God
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