26 replies to this topic

[None of the above]

and then, on 12 October 2012 - 10:57 PM, said:

Then I think you have a lack of imagination.  Israel literally had no sooner evacuated the settlers from Gaza when rockets began falling miles deeper into Israel.  This is, in fact, the primary reason for the blockade of Gaza.  Had the Palestinians just started building businesses and engaging in commerce in the region the only wars would have been potentially trade wars.  No matter what misdirection you try the problem always gets back to aggression by Palis against Jews - calling for more retaliation - ad nauseum.  It gives the zealots on the Jewish side cover to grab more land.
Has it ever occurred to you that the leaders in Israel just possibly could be correct in their appraisal of Iranian intentions?  And if not, why are you so confident of that stance?  Because if you and the rest of those who believe as you do are wrong and Israel is faced with defending itself against a nuclear power - the whole damned world might just get lit up.  Kind of a high cost for Iranian electricity generation, no?

But we were talking about a peace treaty that both sides (minus the nut jobs) could 'live with'?
I would counter that if you genuinely believe that the current Israeli position can be sustained indefinately then your are completely deluded.
The longer this situation continues without resolution the stronger Islamic extremism becomes.
And the rise of Islamic extremism is not in anyones best interests.

So how many Nuclear weapons are we talking here?
Say Iran develops 'the bomb' what are they going to do with it except use it to stop Israel nuking them?

Do you even know how 'one sided' this particular "nuclear stand off" would be?
http://www.fas.org/n...de/israel/nuke/
"By the late 1990s the U.S. Intelligence Community estimated that Israel possessed between 75-130 weapons, based on production estimates. The stockpile would certainly include warheads for mobile Jericho-1 and Jericho-2 missiles, as well as bombs for Israeli aircraft, and may include other tactical nuclear weapons of various types. Some published estimates even claimed that Israel might have as many as 400 nuclear weapons by the late 1990s. We believe these numbers are exaggerated, and that Israel's nuclear weapons inventory may include less than 100 nuclear weapons. Stockpiled plutonium could be used to build additional weapons if so decided."

So where do you think that Iran would place it's couple of first gen bombs?
Obviously knowing that Israel has got enough to destroy EVERY major city in Iran in retaliation and of course not wanting to irradiate the very land that is the cause of the dispute.

The 'Zealots' on both sides are the enemy.

What most of us want is for Israel to abide by international law and stop playing to the home-grown extremists.

Peace in the ME isn't going to be easy. It's not going to be without blood or hard decisions.
But the fearmongering isn't helping.

[and then]

Atlantia, on 13 October 2012 - 12:03 AM, said:

But we were talking about a peace treaty that both sides (minus the nut jobs) could 'live with'?
I would counter that if you genuinely believe that the current Israeli position can be sustained indefinately then your are completely deluded.
The longer this situation continues without resolution the stronger Islamic extremism becomes.
And the rise of Islamic extremism is not in anyones best interests.

So how many Nuclear weapons are we talking here?
Say Iran develops 'the bomb' what are they going to do with it except use it to stop Israel nuking them?

Do you even know how 'one sided' this particular "nuclear stand off" would be?
http://www.fas.org/n...de/israel/nuke/
"By the late 1990s the U.S. Intelligence Community estimated that Israel possessed between 75-130 weapons, based on production estimates. The stockpile would certainly include warheads for mobile Jericho-1 and Jericho-2 missiles, as well as bombs for Israeli aircraft, and may include other tactical nuclear weapons of various types. Some published estimates even claimed that Israel might have as many as 400 nuclear weapons by the late 1990s. We believe these numbers are exaggerated, and that Israel's nuclear weapons inventory may include less than 100 nuclear weapons. Stockpiled plutonium could be used to build additional weapons if so decided."

So where do you think that Iran would place it's couple of first gen bombs?
Obviously knowing that Israel has got enough to destroy EVERY major city in Iran in retaliation and of course not wanting to irradiate the very land that is the cause of the dispute.

The 'Zealots' on both sides are the enemy.

What most of us want is for Israel to abide by international law and stop playing to the home-grown extremists.

Peace in the ME isn't going to be easy. It's not going to be without blood or hard decisions.
But the fearmongering isn't helping.

What you will not acknowledge is that it isn't just "zealots" on the Palestinian side.  The Palestinians as a whole are irrevocably invested in the hatred against the Jew. They teach it to their children as early as kindergarten.  There is no such analog for Israeli school children.  Israelis have wanted peace for years but to achieve it they must have someone to talk with who is willing to do something other than demand all the land.  The Arabs have never been willing to accept the existence of a Jewish State in their midst and I think they never will.  As to the danger of an Iranian capability it is the perceived "umbrella of protection" that it will provide to the Hizballah and Hamas among others.  Are you willing to trust in the rationality of someone like Nasrallah or Meshal when some action against Israel causes an overwhelming response by Israel?  An attack on an Israeli patrol in 2006 in Lebanon by Nasrallah's boys led to a war that devastated southern Lebanon.  Add an Iranian ally blustering about using their newfound power in defense of their proxies and the recipe is in place for making the region a really quiet neighborhood for many decades.

[The New Richard Nixon]

Don't lie Israelis don't want peace they want homes for their greedy population

[Knight Of Shadows]

amen nixon

[and then]

The New Richard Nixon, on 13 October 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

Don't lie Israelis don't want peace they want homes for their greedy population

If you think they would rather be in conflict all the time, needing bomb shelters and gas masks then I think you maybe aren't too bright young man.....

[None of the above]

and then, on 13 October 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

If you think they would rather be in conflict all the time, needing bomb shelters and gas masks then I think you maybe aren't too bright young man.....

Re your previous post, that's pretty much what you think of the Palestinians.

and then, on 13 October 2012 - 02:24 AM, said:

What you will not acknowledge is that it isn't just "zealots" on the Palestinian side. The Palestinians as a whole are irrevocably invested in the hatred against the Jew. They teach it to their children as early as kindergarten. There is no such analog for Israeli school children. Israelis have wanted peace for years but to achieve it they must have someone to talk with who is willing to do something other than demand all the land. The Arabs have never been willing to accept the existence of a Jewish State in their midst and I think they never will. As to the danger of an Iranian capability it is the perceived "umbrella of protection" that it will provide to the Hizballah and Hamas among others. Are you willing to trust in the rationality of someone like Nasrallah or Meshal when some action against Israel causes an overwhelming response by Israel? An attack on an Israeli patrol in 2006 in Lebanon by Nasrallah's boys led to a war that devastated southern Lebanon. Add an Iranian ally blustering about using their newfound power in defense of their proxies and the recipe is in place for making the region a really quiet neighborhood for many decades.

There is no point in demonising either side wholey.
The Palestinians in the occupied territories of course grow up resenting the Israelis, how could they not?
A brutal occupying force opperating an apartheid system where they are very much second class citizens subject to discrimination, theft of their homes, brutal treatment if they object, AT BEST!

The point is that we have to believe that given fair treatment and a chance of peace that most would rather that than the continuation of the hell they are in.

Similarly, we have to believe that the majority of Israeli's must realise that their Nation's current position and policy is untenable in the long term.

The State of Israel needs to make some tough choices and governments can't see beyond the next term.
The best thing for Israel would be to negotiate now, from a position of strength, but to negotiate fairly and make concessions, to reign in the zealots and hard liners then support the peace as rigorously as it can. It won't be easy to begin with and there will be problems. But it is the only option that could provide Israel with long term security.

Your beliefs about Iran don't hold water for me.

[and then]

Atlantia, on 13 October 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

Re your previous post, that's pretty much what you think of the Palestinians.




There is no point in demonising either side wholey.
The Palestinians in the occupied territories of course grow up resenting the Israelis, how could they not?
A brutal occupying force opperating an apartheid system where they are very much second class citizens subject to discrimination, theft of their homes, brutal treatment if they object, AT BEST!

The point is that we have to believe that given fair treatment and a chance of peace that most would rather that than the continuation of the hell they are in.

Similarly, we have to believe that the majority of Israeli's must realise that their Nation's current position and policy is untenable in the long term.

The State of Israel needs to make some tough choices and governments can't see beyond the next term.
The best thing for Israel would be to negotiate now, from a position of strength, but to negotiate fairly and make concessions, to reign in the zealots and hard liners then support the peace as rigorously as it can. It won't be easy to begin with and there will be problems. But it is the only option that could provide Israel with long term security.

Your beliefs about Iran don't hold water for me.

What would you suggest?  Because I've been avidly watching this dance since about 1972 and EVERY time an agreement has been attempted it has been Israel that made the "tough choices".  But that aside, I still believe there will eventually be an agreement.  I think Israel will give more land than they can afford to and once the Palestinians have consolidated on their gains - the attacks will start again - just as they did in Gaza and the reason I'm so confident of this is that these people teach their children hate.  If you take away that motivation then all the gangsters in power in Hamas and the PA will lose their reason for existing.  Believe what you like about Iran.

[None of the above]

and then, on 13 October 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

What would you suggest?  Because I've been avidly watching this dance since about 1972 and EVERY time an agreement has been attempted it has been Israel that made the "tough choices".  But that aside, I still believe there will eventually be an agreement.  I think Israel will give more land than they can afford to and once the Palestinians have consolidated on their gains - the attacks will start again - just as they did in Gaza and the reason I'm so confident of this is that these people teach their children hate.  If you take away that motivation then all the gangsters in power in Hamas and the PA will lose their reason for existing.  Believe what you like about Iran.

Well for a start I disagree with your seeming assumption that Israel has always dealt in good faith and been 'looking for peace' but that's not the point.

The fact of the matter is that there needs to be a solution that both sides can live with despite the vocal minority that will never be happy. Then Israel needs to invest in the peace. Rebuilding and supporting financially the two state solution, pouring in money and aid and treating these people as equals. Both sides need to work together and co-opperate to marginalise the fanatics until the old hatreds and habits of mistrust start to die out.
Both sides will need to be pro-active in controlling their own fanatics.
It will take a generation.

[and then]

Atlantia, on 13 October 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

Well for a start I disagree with your seeming assumption that Israel has always dealt in good faith and been 'looking for peace' but that's not the point.

The fact of the matter is that there needs to be a solution that both sides can live with despite the vocal minority that will never be happy. Then Israel needs to invest in the peace. Rebuilding and supporting financially the two state solution, pouring in money and aid and treating these people as equals. Both sides need to work together and co-opperate to marginalise the fanatics until the old hatreds and habits of mistrust start to die out.
Both sides will need to be pro-active in controlling their own fanatics.
It will take a generation.

The settlers feel the land is their's.  They can be reigned in if a deal can be cut but I think the "rocket boys" are a product of the hatreds they are taught from grade school.  If you have an open mind I suggest you check out the website PALWATCH.ORG.  It is a listing of the instances of hate being preached in the mosques and schools.  THAT is what will need to change before peace would ever have a chance.   Miracles happen....

[The New Richard Nixon]

and then, on 13 October 2012 - 10:40 PM, said:

The settlers feel the land is their's.  They can be reigned in if a deal can be cut but I think the "rocket boys" are a product of the hatreds they are taught from grade school.  If you have an open mind I suggest you check out the website PALWATCH.ORG.  It is a listing of the instances of hate being preached in the mosques and schools.  THAT is what will need to change before peace would ever have a chance.   Miracles happen....

Peace will never happen if Israel bullies nations

[None of the above]

and then, on 13 October 2012 - 10:40 PM, said:

The settlers feel the land is their's.  They can be reigned in if a deal can be cut but I think the "rocket boys" are a product of the hatreds they are taught from grade school.  If you have an open mind I suggest you check out the website PALWATCH.ORG.  It is a listing of the instances of hate being preached in the mosques and schools.  THAT is what will need to change before peace would ever have a chance.   Miracles happen....

I'm not denying that hatred and mistrust of Israel is now endemic. I'm saying that there are good reasons for it.
But you can't claim that there will not be varying levels from dislike to hatred depending on the person.

Similarly in Israel the situation is analogous.
However, as Israel has the 'upper hand' in every respect I hope that the percentages of negative emotion towards the Palestinians are generally less than within the Palestinian population for very obvious reasons.

Given the chance , a fair two state solution, enough genuine good faith, respect for international law and massive financial support from Israel, the moderates could be pursuaded on both sides.
With a gaurantee from the rest of the international community that these agreed borders will be preserved.

BUT! The tables will eventually begin to turn for Israel. It won't be the 'big kid' on the block forever. The best thing for Israel would be to negotiate now from a position of strength but certain elements seem to think that the longer they can postpone the inevitable the better the final and inevitable 'compromise' will end up being for them.
It's not the case.

Edited by Atlantia, 14 October 2012 - 12:37 PM.

[and then]

Atlantia, on 14 October 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

I'm not denying that hatred and mistrust of Israel is now endemic. I'm saying that there are good reasons for it.
But you can't claim that there will not be varying levels from dislike to hatred depending on the person.

Similarly in Israel the situation is analogous.
However, as Israel has the 'upper hand' in every respect I hope that the percentages of negative emotion towards the Palestinians are generally less than within the Palestinian population for very obvious reasons.

Given the chance , a fair two state solution, enough genuine good faith, respect for international law and massive financial support from Israel, the moderates could be pursuaded on both sides.
With a gaurantee from the rest of the international community that these agreed borders will be preserved.

BUT! The tables will eventually begin to turn for Israel. It won't be the 'big kid' on the block forever. The best thing for Israel would be to negotiate now from a position of strength but certain elements seem to think that the longer they can postpone the inevitable the better the final and inevitable 'compromise' will end up being for them.
It's not the case.

I genuinely feel that the record bears out the idea that there are no "moderates" on the Palestinian side.  This is true because those who would try to find common ground are summarily killed or driven out of the country.  It's a pattern.  And I agree that time is not on Israel's side with respect to a PEACEFUL solution.  They will never be simply pushed off their land due to demographics so when things reach a critical mass, war will begin and the issue will be settled with blood, not words.  It's not something I long to see but I firmly believe that history shows no progress will be made - the hatred is too deep.